Players pick their GOAT 🐐🏓

[TableTennisDaily]

First up. Tiago Apolonia

Who is your table tennis GOAT? 🐐

 

[suds79]

Dan left Ma Long for the last pick. Weird. Be a pretty uninteresting video if he didn't.

So honestly I have a hard time believing Waldner could beat JZK (or even FZD who was just like ZJK but with more power IMO).

I've always felt that athletes in all sports continually get better. They watch what past greats did, practice those skills and expand upon them. Not to mention that physical training & analysis gets better & better with technology.

Waldner, and essentially all pros back in the day never BH flipped short serves. They pushed. Today's players can still push or flip many serves. That's just a huge advantage ZJK would have over Waldner if they were to play in often getting his attack off first.

If you watch the NBA, you have never seen a time where there are as many skilled players as there are today. In passing, handling the ball but particularly shooting. It's crazy how many good shooters there are now a days. Kobe learned from Michael, adopted all his post up moves and did them just as well in his prime. Learning from past greats. Now every pro for many years now has taken ques from Steph Curry in seeing how the game has changed and teams find out through analytics that the 3 point shot is the better statical shot. There are shooters everywhere now. Just one example of many where players see what past greats did and expand upon it continually getting better.

Certainly past players if playing today would have all the training advantages current players have and they'd be working on these newer skills they didn't really employ back in their day. So they would be even better than they were back in the day. They have that argument to lean on. But at that point we're getting very hypothetical. Ultimately we can only go on what we've seen and today's players just have more weapons available.

So I think it's a pretty easy ZJK over Waldner.

 

[joshmak10]

1. Ma Long
2. JO Waldner
3. Zhang Jike
4. Fan Zhendong
5. Liu Guoliang
6. Kong Linghui
7. Jorgen Persson
8. Xu Xin
9. Jorg Rosskopf
10. Wang Hao

Ma Lin just misses out on my top 10 GOATs for me

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Dan left Ma Long for the last pick. Weird. Be a pretty uninteresting video if he didn't.

So honestly I have a hard time believing Waldner could beat JZK (or even FZD who was just like ZJK but with more power IMO).

I've always felt that athletes in all sports continually get better. They watch what past greats did, practice those skills and expand upon them. Not to mention that physical training & analysis gets better & better with technology.

Waldner, and essentially all pros back in the day never BH flipped short serves.[\color] They pushed. Today's players can still push or flip many serves. That's just a huge advantage ZJK would have over Waldner if they were to play in often getting his attack off first.

If you watch the NBA, you have never seen a time where there are as many skilled players as there are today. In passing, handling the ball but particularly shooting. It's crazy how many good shooters there are now a days. Kobe learned from Michael, adopted all his post up moves and did them just as well in his prime. Learning from past greats. Now every pro for many years now has taken ques from Steph Curry in seeing how the game has changed and teams find out through analytics that the 3 point shot is the better statical shot. There are shooters everywhere now. Just one example of many where players see what past greats did and expand upon it continually getting better.

Certainly past players if playing today would have all the training advantages current players have and they'd be working on these newer skills they didn't really employ back in their day. So they would be even better than they were back in the day. They have that argument to lean on. But at that point we're getting very hypothetical. Ultimately we can only go on what we've seen and today's players just have more weapons available.

So I think it's a pretty easy ZJK over Waldner.

this is nonsense.douglas vs ding yi Both well able to flip or push short balls check out d Douglas vs ding yi and you'll find plenty of attacking flips of sort balls [\color]

 

[pingpongpaddy]

I have been playing since 60's and in all that time flipping was an option for short balls. You just need timing and feeling

 

[suds79]

I have been playing since 60's and in all that time flipping was an option for short balls. You just need timing and feeling

this is nonsense.douglas vs ding yi Both well able to flip or push short balls check out d Douglas vs ding yi and you'll find plenty of attacking flips of sort balls [\color]

Two points in response. (but the crux of my argument is in point 2 so keep that in mind. Try not to focus solely on point 1)

Point 1:
I specifically mentioned in my post the BH flip on short serves. Those were my words. Just so we're all on the same page, we're talking about the backhand flip on short serves. Some people call it the chiquita. It has been made famous by more recent players. JZK certainly one of them and many more since.

Anyways, you point out this match from 1994 saying Desmond Douglas does it and then provided a video. I watched the entire video. I would like you to reply with the timestamp when you think Douglass performs this shot we're talking about. I'll tell you now that'll be hard to do because his opponent the penholder serves here serves it long & fast 90+% of the time. I really think you're looking at points like 3:06 ("oh there's one"). Nope. That's a long serve he attacked. He's an attacking player. He's not going to full on chop a long topspin serve. Any player would have attacked this ball. That's not it and the shot we're talking about. You might site 6:04. Again that wouldn't be the same shot. If you think it is, then I just have to question if you understand what this shot it.

But lets say you disagree with this assessment. That's fine. Lets go into point 2 and the more important one.

Point 2:
Antidotal. Even though I say your video example is 100% off, lets say it it's fine. It's 1 player from 1994. Surely you're not going to argue that the BH flip on short serves was widely used back then vs pushing right? Tell me you're not going to say that. Because if you believe that, then we can just stop the conversation right now. It wasn't. The game and style of play has evolved. I'm sure someone experimented with the shot throughout the years but by in large it's Peter Korbel who is credited with inventing or making the BH chiquita popular in the 90s. These techniques talk a while to settle in. Shoot Liu Guoliang was doing his RPB attack back when he was playing but I don't think anybody would argue he was nearly as good with it as Wang Hao several years later.

So all these players we know & love from the 80s & 90s still and will always be great. They did great things. But they simply did not execute or practice this revolutionary shot in the manner that every single pro does today. It's about as fundamental for pros now a days as having a good loop. It's a requirement.

 

[Tyce]

Flipping was hardly used in the 38mm era because it was really, really hard to get right.
Overriding spin became a lot easier.
Sure, credit to those who noticed and got to thinking how flips could be much better after the new balls, but it's not something that can be fairly compared to the 90s.

 

[suds79]

Flipping was hardly used in the 38mm era because it was really, really hard to get right.
Overriding spin became a lot easier.
Sure, credit to those who noticed and got to thinking how flips could be much better after the new balls, but it's not something that can be fairly compared to the 90s.

For sure comparing eras is always tricky which is why it's hard to do a full on GOAT debate. The game has changed so much. I'm with you.

 

[NextLevel]

The ball and equipment were different back then as well. It was much harder to push heavy spin short but short pushes were also more devastating. I think it is easy to underestimate how much influence the ball and the equipment has had on the game.

 

[plunder]

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[pingpongpaddy]

quote from yr post:-
Waldner, and essentially all pros back in the day never BH flipped short serves.
- nonsense
I was playing tournaments from 1969 to 2010.
during all that time we spoke of pushing and flipping the short serves.
The chiquita did not catch on till much later. it is was an innovation by Korbel
The point is that we were not restricted to just pushing, and we used to call it soft flip and often use side because to use too much top invited a strong counter drive from the opponent
I chose that vid because it dispels the notion that pros couldn't freely attack the serve in 38mm. days
douglas's career started about 1977

 

[suds79]

quote from yr post:-
Waldner, and essentially all pros back in the day never BH flipped short serves.
- nonsense
I was playing tournaments from 1969 to 2010.
during all that time we spoke of pushing and flipping the short serves.
The chiquita did not catch on till much later. it is was an innovation by Korbel
The point is that we were not restricted to just pushing, and we used to call it soft flip and often use side because to use too much top invited a strong counter drive from the opponent
I chose that vid because it dispels the notion that pros couldn't freely attack the serve in 38mm. days
douglas's career started about 1977

So as much as I'd love to hear what you and your buddies were talking about when you were playing, that doesn't really have anything to do with what the current trends are or have been the pro market. This is the second time now you've pointed out what you used to do. Please stop using your experience equating it to what the pros were doing or experiencing. Many of us here are also tournament players same as you use to be. I don't see anybody else equating that experience or using as some proof of authority. That's just silly. The simple fact is back then the BH flip wasn't in trend as it is today. The video shows us that. Yes Peter Korbel was the one who introduced the chquita. I already mentioned that in my response. Feel like you're just repeating what I said.

quote from yr post:-
Waldner, and essentially all pros back in the day never BH flipped short serves.
- nonsense

Oh really. Lets go to the tape then. Here's a match he had even with the modern ball & equipment. Can't even blame it on the 38 here.

I count two BH flicks throughout the whole match. He largely opts to push. Just his style from what he knew from that era. Doesn't mean he wasn't great. We all know he is. But I think if he were young once again learning the game today, I suspect that'd be an element of his game he didn't really use back then. Players get better over time as I covered earlier.

And if this isn't moving the goalpost, I don't know what is.
"I chose that vid because it dispels the notion that pros couldn't freely attack the serve in 38mm. days"

That's one heck of a strawman. Who said that? Where was that an argument? Never once did I say players couldn't attack serves. I was specifically talking about the BH flip how it wasn't really used much at all back then, which is true, and you provided a video as contrary evidence where that specific shot wasn't done once. To me that's nonsense.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

So as much as I'd love to hear what you and your buddies were talking about when you were playing, that doesn't really have anything to do with what the current trends are or have been the pro market. This is the second time now you've pointed out what you used to do. Please stop using your experience equating it to what the pros were doing or experiencing. Many of us here are also tournament players same as you use to be. I don't see anybody else equating that experience or using as some proof of authority. That's just silly. The simple fact is back then the BH flip wasn't in trend as it is today. The video shows us that. Yes Peter Korbel was the one who introduced the chquita. I already mentioned that in my response. Feel like you're just repeating what I said.

quote from yr post:-
Waldner, and essentially all pros back in the day never BH flipped short serves.
- nonsense

Oh really. Lets go to the tape then. Here's a match he had even with the modern ball & equipment. Can't even blame it on the 38 here.

I count two BH flicks throughout the whole match. He largely opts to push. Just his style from what he knew from that era. Doesn't mean he wasn't great. We all know he is. But I think if he were young once again learning the game today, I suspect that'd be an element of his game he didn't really use back then. Players get better over time as I covered earlier.

And if this isn't moving the goalpost, I don't know what is.
"I chose that vid because it dispels the notion that pros couldn't freely attack the serve in 38mm. days"

That's one heck of a strawman. Who said that? Where was that an argument? Never once did I say players couldn't attack serves. I was specifically talking about the BH flip how it wasn't really used much at all back then, which is true, and you provided a video as contrary evidence where that specific shot wasn't done once. To me that's nonsense.

You made an inaccurate statement. Live with it and move on
bye

 

[Lula]

Hard to compare. Spin was much more heavy with 38 mm ball i believe so could not play the same as today. Even with todays bh flips and counter loops i think it would be harder with the older ball. Also playing Waldner or Gouliang with nasty hiddens serves and they get to serve five in a row must have been a different game. Hopefully tha game always develops and players get better and better. Personally i found the older ball much more entertaining. Play more like tennis or womens tabletennis today.

 

[PoppaChubby]

First up. Tiago Apolonia

Who is your table tennis GOAT? 🐐

Where's Gatien ? the french has achieved more than Schlager, Persson and Timo being only 1 final away from a grand slam. You're completely biased Dan.

 

[Lazer]

This is mine:

https://mikaelappelgren.com

Best footwork of the era…
Most elegant and entertaining of the era…

Unfortunately very often forgotten…

Cheers
L-zr

 

[PoppaChubby]

My list based on facts, not biases:

1- JO Waldner, the first ever to achieve a grand slam and in 3 years only, deserve the first place for history and 2 WTTC

2- Ma Long, 2 grand slams, only 1 Olympics away from a third one

3- Fan Zendhong, 1 grand slam, and because he's got 4 World Cups, 2 more than

4- Zhang Jike, 1 grand slam and 2 world cups

5- Liu Guoliang, 1 grand slam achieved in only 3 years like JO Waldner

6- King Linghui, because he needed 2 more years to achieve a grand slam than Liu Guoliang

7- Jean-Philippe Gatien, only JO Waldner stoppped him in the Barcelona Olympics in the final so he couldn't make it for a grand slam, silver medal still.

8- Ma Lin, after Gatien because it's harder to get a silver medal in an event than happens every 4 years like the Olympics years than in WTTC every 2 years, twice more occasions to succeed, and he's never done it.

9- Jorgen Persson, Like Gatien and Ma Lin he's won at least 2 over 3 of the grand slam events but couldn't get any medal in singles at the 3rd one, the Olympics.

10- Timo Boll, mister World Cup for sure, but sorry guys, that's pretty much all, he's done less than Gatien and Ma Lin in other grand slam events.

Facts matter folks

 

[Robin0910]

My list based on facts, not biases:

1- JO Waldner, the first ever to achieve a grand slam and in 3 years only, deserve the first place for history and 2 WTTC

2- Ma Long, 2 grand slams, only 1 Olympics away from a third one

3- Fan Zendhong, 1 grand slam, and because he's got 4 World Cups, 2 more than

4- Zhang Jike, 1 grand slam and 2 world cups

5- Liu Guoliang, 1 grand slam achieved in only 3 years like JO Waldner

6- King Linghui, because he needed 2 more years to achieve a grand slam than Liu Guoliang

7- Jean-Philippe Gatien, only JO Waldner stoppped him in the Barcelona Olympics in the final so he couldn't make it for a grand slam, silver medal still.

8- Ma Lin, after Gatien because it's harder to get a silver medal in an event than happens every 4 years like the Olympics years than in WTTC every 2 years, twice more occasions to succeed, and he's never done it.

9- Jorgen Persson, Like Gatien and Ma Lin he's won at least 2 over 3 of the grand slam events but couldn't get any medal in singles at the 3rd one, the Olympics.

10- Timo Boll, mister World Cup for sure, but sorry guys, that's pretty much all, he's done less than Gatien and Ma Lin in other grand slam events.

Facts matter folks

Did you forget Ma Lin won the Olympics in Beijing? He also has 3 WTTC silver medals and is a 5 time World Cup winner.

 

[ZFT]

My list based on facts, not biases:

1- JO Waldner, the first ever to achieve a grand slam and in 3 years only, deserve the first place for history and 2 WTTC

2- Ma Long, 2 grand slams, only 1 Olympics away from a third one

3- Fan Zendhong, 1 grand slam, and because he's got 4 World Cups, 2 more than

4- Zhang Jike, 1 grand slam and 2 world cups

5- Liu Guoliang, 1 grand slam achieved in only 3 years like JO Waldner

6- King Linghui, because he needed 2 more years to achieve a grand slam than Liu Guoliang

7- Jean-Philippe Gatien, only JO Waldner stoppped him in the Barcelona Olympics in the final so he couldn't make it for a grand slam, silver medal still.

8- Ma Lin, after Gatien because it's harder to get a silver medal in an event than happens every 4 years like the Olympics years than in WTTC every 2 years, twice more occasions to succeed, and he's never done it.

9- Jorgen Persson, Like Gatien and Ma Lin he's won at least 2 over 3 of the grand slam events but couldn't get any medal in singles at the 3rd one, the Olympics.

10- Timo Boll, mister World Cup for sure, but sorry guys, that's pretty much all, he's done less than Gatien and Ma Lin in other grand slam events.

Facts matter folks

Urgh. “Facts matter” and proceeds to leave out and getting facts wrong.

The fact is you didn’t have the decency to spell names correctly…

 

[Lazer]

My list based on facts, not biases:

1- JO Waldner, the first ever to achieve a grand slam and in 3 years only, deserve the first place for history and 2 WTTC

2- Ma Long, 2 grand slams, only 1 Olympics away from a third one

3- Fan Zendhong, 1 grand slam, and because he's got 4 World Cups, 2 more than

4- Zhang Jike, 1 grand slam and 2 world cups

5- Liu Guoliang, 1 grand slam achieved in only 3 years like JO Waldner

6- King Linghui, because he needed 2 more years to achieve a grand slam than Liu Guoliang

7- Jean-Philippe Gatien, only JO Waldner stoppped him in the Barcelona Olympics in the final so he couldn't make it for a grand slam, silver medal still.

8- Ma Lin, after Gatien because it's harder to get a silver medal in an event than happens every 4 years like the Olympics years than in WTTC every 2 years, twice more occasions to succeed, and he's never done it.

9- Jorgen Persson, Like Gatien and Ma Lin he's won at least 2 over 3 of the grand slam events but couldn't get any medal in singles at the 3rd one, the Olympics.

10- Timo Boll, mister World Cup for sure, but sorry guys, that's pretty much all, he's done less than Gatien and Ma Lin in other grand slam events.

Facts matter folks

There are no facts in this, only biases…

Cheers
L-zr