Reading Spin + Tactics

[Zezima]

By the way, open angle can also mean heavy sidetopspin if the force is upwards. Closed angle (or more perpendicular to the ball contact) can be heavy backspin if the force is directed downwards.

Ppl need to get over such stereotypes of 'open racket angle = backspin, closed racket angle = topspin'.

This is why I cant read the spin because I am only used to open flat racket chopping below the ball backspin etc.. but he was creating backspin with open parallel to the net angle.

I see no motion upwards only downwards. Even when he does his tomahawk serve it kicks and is not with backspin.

I was so busy returning the ball that I couldnt even think about placement. And then I felt behind in rallys cause I either returned to his bh which was so predictable especially if I received with my bh. And then didnt think about my position over the table. So I was kind of static for the next ball.

This is what seems to happen a lot when I cant trust my return to land on the table. I watch and watch the ball till it lands on the other side.

Is there a youtube video on how to generate back and topspin without pulling the arm upwards and racket open lile this?

 

[blahness]

This is why I cant read the spin because I am only used to open flat racket chopping below the ball backspin etc.. but he was creating backspin with open parallel to the net angle.

I see no motion upwards only downwards. Even when he does his tomahawk serve it kicks and is not with backspin.

I was so busy returning the ball that I couldnt even think about placement. And then I felt behind in rallys cause I either returned to his bh which was so predictable especially if I received with my bh. And then didnt think about my position over the table. So I was kind of static for the next ball.

This is what seems to happen a lot when I cant trust my return to land on the table. I watch and watch the ball till it lands on the other side.

Is there a youtube video on how to generate back and topspin without pulling the arm upwards and racket open lile this?

With his backhand serve, he is serving sidebackspin by having the wrist chopping downwards hard and then pulling the bat to the side (the true contact is the downwards chopping movement by the wrist). The sidetopspin variant is when he pulls the bat to the side to create the sidetopspin (the wrist will also activate but not during contact). Same racket angle for both serves. No need for upwards movement for sidetopspin because it is a relatively closed racket, just a sideways drag already creates sidetop. So you need to focus hard on whether his wrist is actively chopping down on the ball during contact or is it being dragged to the side for the contact used for spin. Easier said than done though. It is much easier if your eyes are at a lower level which is why tall pros squat and bend forward a lot to see the serve properly.

Then you need to watch trajectory very carefully whether it decelerates or kicks, this basically cannot lie. Backspin balls decelerate and topspin balls kick.

Also, using FH allows you to watch the ball a bit longer and give you more info on its spin. With BH it is harder.

 

[Zezima]

With his backhand serve, he is serving sidebackspin by having the wrist chopping downwards hard and then pulling the bat to the side (the true contact is the downwards chopping movement by the wrist). The sidetopspin variant is when he pulls the bat to the side to create the sidetopspin (the wrist will also activate but not during contact). Same racket angle for both serves. No need for upwards movement for sidetopspin because it is a relatively closed racket, just a sideways drag already creates sidetop. So you need to focus hard on whether his wrist is actively chopping down on the ball during contact or is it being dragged to the side for the contact used for spin. Easier said than done though. It is much easier if your eyes are at a lower level which is why tall pros squat and bend forward a lot to see the serve properly.

Then you need to watch trajectory very carefully whether it decelerates or kicks, this basically cannot lie. Backspin balls decelerate and topspin balls kick.

Also, using FH allows you to watch the ball a bit longer and give you more info on its spin. With BH it is harder.

Do you have timestamps for when he does BS and when he does TS where you saw that motion?
My best bet is to memorize it visually.

 

[blahness]

Do you have timestamps for when he does BS and when he does TS where you saw that motion?
My best bet is to memorize it visually.

Sorry bro, it is way too long, you need to analyze it yourself...

 

[jk1980]

without having seen the whole video, for the lets say 6 serves i whitnessed, there was no backspin in it. It is very clear when there is and the result is wildly different. If you dont push the serve that has backspin in it and you dont use a very good acceleration when brushing the ball will not land in the net, but actually dart down to the table 30cm in front of you. You just hitting the low part of the net can not be noticable back spin.


let's dissect the first few ones:
at 00:25 you can not simply create any backspin with the tip of your bat pointing to the ceiling. It is a completely open racket.

at 00:34 again open racket - no backspin involved

with that kind of kirmesaufschlag (movement of a OB player) i actually really doubt that he could even know how to impart backspin properly

at 01:11 again, no backspin, open racket

this one you actually flipped by just brushing over it and it worked very well

at 01:19 again open racket, no backspin



you "block" that one into the net, because you take it in the rising phase and not applying brushing, but just a forward motion with a closed racket.

of course its gonna drop into the net, but again: if it was backspin it would dart down onto the table instantly

If you have a specific instance or timestamp we can have a look at it, but your opponent either cant do backspin serves with his backhand or he does disrespect you by doing these spinless serves because you kinda struggle with them. From these examples there is not even sidespin in there with that technique.


I have a team mate that does backhand serves with sidespin and does alternate between middle (not strong) backspin and only sidespin which you can see here:


i think you can figure out which ones are backspin (those i push) and which ones are purely sidespin (the ones i just touch on the side and guide them over the net).

The secret in here is the follow through because i dont think any non professional can really "chop" the ball for underspin and stop the chopping motion right after contact to implement a feint to the side.
If the chopping motion is through the ball and to the down right of the server with a "flat/closed" angle it is mediocre backspin, if the hit is more with an open angle and to the side only it is just sidespin

 

[doppelmoral]

I just saw some parts of the video. you look like you have no confidence in receiving long serves to your backhand.

the serves he gave you werent even that loaded or well placed, they were just long. still he got many aces where you completely whiffed

open your racket, make a long and controlled movement, focus on making spin. ask someone to serve to your backhand for an hour and build that confidence. from what Ive seen, the game was dominanted by unforced errors

 

[doppelmoral]

One of you say I go immediately back and the other says stay close to the table.

because both tactics are viable, but they require a different approach. if you stay close, you borrow the balls energy and need a small and precise swing

if you step back and loop the ball late, you create your own power with a longer and controlled swing, which makes it very easy to overwrite any spin

the key is to play that receive with confidence

 

[Zezima]

because both tactics are viable, but they require a different approach. if you stay close, you borrow the balls energy and need a small and precise swing

if you step back and loop the ball late, you create your own power with a longer and controlled swing, which makes it very easy to overwrite any spin

the key is to play that receive with confidence

This is my goal to receive with confidence but not being able to see the spin on the ball makes me lose confidence.

Maybe I can try standing further to the left but he might abuse my wide fh then. Not sure if I have enough time to pivot with the fh. Whatever I will try my luck in case I face him tomorrow

 

[Zezima]

Played him today. Not even close 0-3. I returned his serves better but his blocks and chop blocks short were just better than my offense. He was very scared when I looped with spin and slow. But these shorter blocks and even the long balls that I attacked didnt bother him at all. I varied my placement fh middle and to bh.

I feel like over the table I am just too passive and when the ball lands longer on my side I feel too unprepared.

Having stomache problems and only 5h sleep doesnt help with concentration and feeling strong and active.

With these last words I wanna close this thread just wantes to share my experience.

 

[merlin el mago]

The best way to return a long serve without spin using reverse is:

-Always, always, expect him to do a long service.
-Don't rest too close to the table.
-Do not try to crush or make a strong topping.
-Simply make a slow drive, gently accompanying the ball where you want to place it.

 

[IB66]

Just a note, I think his serve is illegal, he probably doesn’t gain an advantage but he holds the ball below the table as part of his serve action. Doesn’t present ball in the flat of his hand. Would I call it during a match - no, but I would mention this after the match has ended.

 

[Zezima]

Just a note, I think his serve is illegal, he probably doesn’t gain an advantage but he holds the ball below the table as part of his serve action. Doesn’t present ball in the flat of his hand. Would I call it during a match - no, but I would mention this after the match has ended.

Those are stuff idc about. He does tomahawk serve where he throws the ball into him. But I didnt call it even though I struggled since I know it has topspin atleast. The only serve I could tell what the spin on the ball was..

Rally wise it felt better to push his service back but I didnt want to get used to that. I dont want to make it a habit to push long serves for short time success.

Would I have won in a match with a referee and strict service ruling? Very likely.
But he is a good opponent that shows my weaknesses.

 

[NextLevel]

Just a note, I think his serve is illegal, he probably doesn’t gain an advantage but he holds the ball below the table as part of his serve action. Doesn’t present ball in the flat of his hand. Would I call it during a match - no, but I would mention this after the match has ended.

There are more issues but that is for another thread.

 

[Zezima]

One last thing. Should I stick with d09c both sides when I can only loop with loop with quality in the drills?
Feels like drill quality loops:
Bh 70%
Fh 60% (taking footwork drills into account otherwise for static ones 85%)

TrainingsMatches:
Bh 50%
Fh 40%

Real matches
Bh 15%
Fh 30%

Numbers are how I feel spontanously.

Maybe I need to sit down and analyze this part further after league games. I def don't think I need softer rubbers in training. Only in matches. But the real problem is anticipation and positioning on the table

 

[merlin el mago]

You must train more to arrive to 80-90% consistency when training and also more strong concentration and mental strength for matches.

 

[Zezima]

You must train more to arrive to 80-90% consistency when training and also more strong concentration and mental strength for matches.

I do mostly "beautiful" drills with rythm even though it might be an irregular exercise. Or semi irregular. But in matches the rythm changes fast and I am completely lost with my positioning. But this is to this specific player. Being lost on serve receive and in the match with short, to the sides, very fast topspin, slow short chops, slow topspin drives. Just too many different balls to deal with.

Also against another good player who has short pips on his bh and chops mainly (passive only gives some weird spin back by chopping the side of the ball) I felt so much pressure to end the points early when a good ball came to my fh that I did so many "easy" mistakes. Maybe out of 10 fh I did 1 like I train during rally every other fh winner were from 3rd ball attacks.

What I am trying to say is the longer the rally goes the harder it gets to loop a quality ball. Easiest is on 3rd ball attack. In the rally it becomes a block/drive battle until someone is forced out of position which seems to be me most of the time. Like I am playing their game (these are all older players compared to me) so they play to their strength. But right now I feel like I am young enough to be able to use my power to end the rallys sooner. But my hand refuses and is stiff and I cant hit harder. Its like I deliberately want to finish the rally with that shot. My mental seems also too weak when facing better players.

Even though I am not thinking about useless stuff I seem to not really think about anything but I am still super under pressure. As if my brain turned on survival mode. And then even the strokes I know I can play with quality I cant hit properly or with low quality only.

I want to play relaxed and get out of this survival mode that I enter for no reason. If you think about it from the analytical point of view I am supposed to lose vs better players anyway so why am I so stressed out in beating them. Trying to see all this training was worth it? See some progress? What makes me believe that just because my technique looks better that I deserve to win? Or someone who cant even bh topspin is supposed to lose because I have that stroke in my arsenal?
Why haven't I developed a proper clear to everyone playstyle sequence of balls where I win my points if that happens? I win my points from all over the place half of it maybe from unforced errors by them. While others just win the moment I give them a weak ball to their fh. It doesnt have to be the fh for me but I want to have something like that for myself going

 

[IB66]

One last thing. Should I stick with d09c both sides when I can only loop with loop with quality in the drills?
Feels like drill quality loops:
Bh 70%
Fh 60% (taking footwork drills into account otherwise for static ones 85%)

TrainingsMatches:
Bh 50%
Fh 40%

Real matches
Bh 15%
Fh 30%

Numbers are how I feel spontanously.

Maybe I need to sit down and analyze this part further after league games. I def don't think I need softer rubbers in training. Only in matches. But the real problem is anticipation and positioning on the table

This is pretty normal when learning!!

Doing a mix of regular, semi irregular and irregular drills is good, once the consistency is at 80 - 90% for regular drills then increase the amount of semi irregular & irregular drills.
examples of regular, semi irregular, and irregular drills below.

serve receive -
regular - long backspin serve to your BH - you open up. long backspin serve to FH - you open up. Long backspin serve to crossover - you open up.

Semi irregular - long backspin serves to either BH or FH, but a max of 2 serves to BH or FH in a row. This means that at some point you ‘know’ you are getting a serve to one position if they do 2 serves to the other position in a row. If they start doing 1 to FH 1 to BH, there is a pattern!!

irregular - long backspin serves anywhere.

3rd ball open up-

regular - you serve short backspin ( ask opponent if he wants to practice FH or BH push return or what he is comfortable with). Opponent always pushes long to FH or BH or crossover you open up.

semi irregular - opponent pushes long to BH or FH or crossover, but can only do a max of 2 to either BH or FH or crossover in a row ( just choose 2 out of the 3 ie BH FH Crossover.)

irregular - opponent pushes long anywhere.


Spin identification.

get your coach or playing partner to serve any spin they like, you have to call what spin is on the ball BEFORE it bounces on your side of the table. Use your bat, with a vertical face and allow the ball to bounce onto the face, this will show you what spin was on the ball and whether you were correct!!

 

[blahness]

I do mostly "beautiful" drills with rythm even though it might be an irregular exercise. Or semi irregular. But in matches the rythm changes fast and I am completely lost with my positioning. But this is to this specific player. Being lost on serve receive and in the match with short, to the sides, very fast topspin, slow short chops, slow topspin drives. Just too many different balls to deal with.

Also against another good player who has short pips on his bh and chops mainly (passive only gives some weird spin back by chopping the side of the ball) I felt so much pressure to end the points early when a good ball came to my fh that I did so many "easy" mistakes. Maybe out of 10 fh I did 1 like I train during rally every other fh winner were from 3rd ball attacks.

What I am trying to say is the longer the rally goes the harder it gets to loop a quality ball. Easiest is on 3rd ball attack. In the rally it becomes a block/drive battle until someone is forced out of position which seems to be me most of the time. Like I am playing their game (these are all older players compared to me) so they play to their strength. But right now I feel like I am young enough to be able to use my power to end the rallys sooner. But my hand refuses and is stiff and I cant hit harder. Its like I deliberately want to finish the rally with that shot. My mental seems also too weak when facing better players.

Even though I am not thinking about useless stuff I seem to not really think about anything but I am still super under pressure. As if my brain turned on survival mode. And then even the strokes I know I can play with quality I cant hit properly or with low quality only.

I want to play relaxed and get out of this survival mode that I enter for no reason. If you think about it from the analytical point of view I am supposed to lose vs better players anyway so why am I so stressed out in beating them. Trying to see all this training was worth it? See some progress? What makes me believe that just because my technique looks better that I deserve to win? Or someone who cant even bh topspin is supposed to lose because I have that stroke in my arsenal?
Why haven't I developed a proper clear to everyone playstyle sequence of balls where I win my points if that happens? I win my points from all over the place half of it maybe from unforced errors by them. While others just win the moment I give them a weak ball to their fh. It doesnt have to be the fh for me but I want to have something like that for myself going

This is what everyone has been talking about in your thread. Improving FH topspin is not the lowest hanging fruit for improvement. The lowest hanging fruit is serve/receive. And these are actually the easiest to get good at by deliberate practice. For eg long serve receive training by looping long serves with all 7 different spin types.

 

[blahness]

Even when i was literally a 'pushblocker' back in those days playing 2x H3N and literally just having a basic FH slow loop and BH block, i managed to win many times against 'pro looking' people who can do beautiful powerful topspin against block both FH and BH. Because they never trained to topspin against nasty serves/receives and make too many mistakes when I changed my placement or my spin or my receive type.

Topspin isnt just topspin against block, it is

1) clockwise sideunder
2) clockwise sidetop
3) clockwise pure side
4) anticlockwise sideunder
5) anticlockwise sidetop
6) anticlockwise pure side
7) heavy pure under
8) mild under
9) dead
10) mild topspin
11) heavy topspin

For length you have
a) fast long,
b) slow long,
c) half long,
d) short

For placement you have
i) wide corner (exiting sides of table),
ii) deep BH,
iii) elbow,
iv) FH

So there are a huge amount of variations there which you have to be conscious about, and categorise, and master. So almost 11 x 4 x 4 = 176 types of balls.

And the way to approach all these balls, how to contact, etc... is all different.

Of course the basic stroke is the same, but the stroke has to be adjusted to fit the incoming ball spin and placement. Heming Hu also had the exact same idea.

For eg, you cannot claim that you can 'topspin' against all long serves unless you can have at least 80+% landing consistency if someone tells you they are serving a particular spin, and you can land your loop at will to any placement of your choosing.

 

[NextLevel]

I was tempted to post the video on the Myth of the Perfect Forehand on one of Zezima's threads. I will pst this from ZJJ instead. Note some things he says about it being too late and the dangers of changing effective technique.