Reading Spin + Tactics

[Zezima]

What the fk is going on.

Idc if he starts below the table unless he curves the ball when theowing it up.
Other than that I can clearly see the contactpoint. I just don't understand the spin of the ball. It's just too fast and slight spin variation still affects a lot. I also never trained receives on those type of balls since noone else serves like that. And if I cant be sure of the spin of the ball I cant be confident with my strokes because I misscalculate the balls path and timing of my stroke. So the strokes where I had the wrong backswing are all of them me misscalculating the inc. Spin.

And its not the rubbers fault because in training when I let them serve long different spin serves to my bh I could return them. I am actually better at receiving with my bh than with my fh.

People talk about you nees good contact etc. Dont seem to understand that for that you need to understand the balls trajectory.
So saying its not spin reading issue but your contact is just plain wrong. Even though they are right with the latter still but the problem is the former issue.

Even the 2000TTR in the camp saw no issue with my bh rubber he just gave suggestions to my fh.

People in this club have either short pips or long pips mostly on their bh so they don't struggle as much with his serves (still do) but I also have to take this opportunity to do an active stroke as many times as possible. If it had been life or death and just about short term success I would go one step back and chop it as late as possible. Which I did a few times in this game aswell when I got super irritated with the balls trajectory.

On the fh I do sometimes deaccelerate trying to use the incomings ball speed and just brush upwards. There I need better understanding for sure. If the ball passed a certain speed threshold I was doing my stroke more carefully slow thinking the ball already has pace but I would get the contact and brush speed wrong (too slow and too upwards or too slow and forwards swingpath doesnt matter actually)

Keep in mind with everything that went wrong I still went 1-3 and 2-3. So it was not hopeless. He has like 100-150points more than me

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

its not the rubber fault, with what you're doing, with any rubber you can try, the result will not be much better or more consistent. its a technique issue. too big stroke. Make it as short as possible (by waiting more) for max control. with a short stroke and good spin, you can put at least the ball on the table even if the serve is no-spin, top or underspin. it may not be a very good return, too much in the middle of the table, too slow or a bit too high, but its possible, and its not so easy to kill if there is good spin.

even if a long serve is fast, its still less fast than a fast drive or smash from an opponent. But sometimes you do put back those balls on the table don't you ?
So when dealing with long serves, the first thing to overcome is fear. You have to believe you can attack it.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I also never trained receives on those type of balls since noone else serves like that. And if I cant be sure of the spin of the ball I cant be confident with my strokes because I misscalculate the balls path and timing of my stroke. So the strokes where I had the wrong backswing are all of them me misscalculating the inc. Spin.


So saying its not spin reading issue but your contact is just plain wrong. Even though they are right with the latter still but the problem is the former issue.

Even the 2000TTR in the camp saw no issue with my bh rubber he just gave suggestions to my fh.

If it is a spin and trajectory reading issue how come you successfully received nearly all of your passive forehand receives, but missed a large percentage of the more active backhand receives? Because your eyes work differently on your forehand compared to backhand? Or because your technique breaks down on the backhand on faster serves because you use so much wrist and are slow in doing so, leading to your wrist still moving backwards when the ball has already passed through the ideal hitting zone?

 

[zeio]

Same problem we (also ThePongCommenter) went through a minute in. The trajectory of that flick shot at 0:50 should be literally straight rather than curved. For short balls bouncing over two times the net height, you don't have to go over the ball and brush it. Just hit through it. Similarly, for long balls, you still don't hit through the ball but brush it, such as at 4:44. OTOH, you have that thick contact when the ball is bouncing low or when the ball is on the fall with you being away from the table, but that's not hitting through the ball.

On receiving, once you know there's sidespin on the serve and that it's long (even more so for those that bounce high), then whether it's topspin (with an extra kick) or backspin (with a more muted kick) is of less importance, as it only affects the timing and your angle of attack (stroke and blade), which is comparatively minor compared to using the incoming sidepsin to return the shot. In that video, many of your BHs have no stroke at all. Get that part sorted and you will have a much easier time. It's the low, short and half-long ones that are a pain to deal with.

 

[Zezima]

If it is a spin and trajectory reading issue how come you successfully received nearly all of your passive forehand receives, but missed a large percentage of the more active backhand receives? Because your eyes work differently on your forehand compared to backhand? Or because your technique breaks down on the backhand on faster serves because you use so much wrist and are slow in doing so, leading to your wrist still moving backwards when the ball has already passed through the ideal hitting zone?

Because on fh you can adjust your stroke more. With the bh I am by nature hitting the ball in front of me and the contactpoint has to be in front slightly to my left even.

I am slow because I have no clue what I am supposed to do. I tried slow drives some I rememver just going all in and snapping it. But many times what happened was that just when I was about to hit the ball I missread the balls trajectory so my brain tried to adjust the stroke in the last moment which meant that I couldnt go for a fast brush hit stroke and it ended up being a more scared stroke.

It just felt whatever stroke I was going for ended up wrong in the very last moment. Thats why I couldnt build up the confidence or got any better over the course of the game.

 

[dingyibvs]

Because on fh you can adjust your stroke more. With the bh I am by nature hitting the ball in front of me and the contactpoint has to be in front slightly to my left even.

I am slow because I have no clue what I am supposed to do. I tried slow drives some I rememver just going all in and snapping it. But many times what happened was that just when I was about to hit the ball I missread the balls trajectory so my brain tried to adjust the stroke in the last moment which meant that I couldnt go for a fast brush hit stroke and it ended up being a more scared stroke.

It just felt whatever stroke I was going for ended up wrong in the very last moment. Thats why I couldnt build up the confidence or got any better over the course of the game.

You both hit on something important, and in a sense both are right. First, you need to accept that yes, it is primarily a technique issue, but I'll explain later why you're also right. Second, you hit on an important point regarding time to adjust to the incoming ball. A bigger motion has 2 major downsides, both related to time but different. One is as others have mentioned, you may not have enough time to execute the whole motion. This IMO is not the problem here, his service is not that fast. A lot of them are in fact slow enough to be killed. They just seem faster because he doesn't toss the ball, which BTW is a far bigger issue than starting the toss below the table.

The second issue with a bigger motion is IMO what's plaguing you more. With a bigger motion, you need to decide earlier where the ball will be and therefore you'll have less time to adjust to the ball. You'll also be starting the motion with the ball closer to your racket, so less adjustment will be needed to begin with.

This is a very important technique to learn. Your opponent's service is fairly sloppy and eventually you'll be good enough to just kill them, so you're right in the sense that if you could judge the ball better you'll be able to receive it. However, when you reach that level with your judgment and BH loop you'll also be competing against guys who'll serve faster, spinnier, and with more deception. You'll thus be facing the same issues you're facing now, and again you'll need to use a smaller motion to handle those services. The key here is that your judgment is good enough for this level, your technique isn't and hence the reason everyone is telling you this is what you need to work on.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Because on fh you can adjust your stroke more. With the bh I am by nature hitting the ball in front of me and the contactpoint has to be in front slightly to my left even.

I am slow because I have no clue what I am supposed to do. I tried slow drives some I rememver just going all in and snapping it. But many times what happened was that just when I was about to hit the ball I missread the balls trajectory so my brain tried to adjust the stroke in the last moment which meant that I couldnt go for a fast brush hit stroke and it ended up being a more scared stroke.

It just felt whatever stroke I was going for ended up wrong in the very last moment. Thats why I couldnt build up the confidence or got any better over the course of the game.

It's not about adjustment. Look at the pushes and tap shots you did on the forehand - there was no adjustment, from the second you saw the ball you decided you were going to push and your hand stayed in the same position the whole time. Example at 00:33 at 1:58. Look at the two serves starting at 1:44, it is the perfect demonstration of how your BH totally misses the ball because you are trying to snap your wrist so much and so fast and don't have the timing skills to do so, and then on your FH you use the arm instead of wrist and read/handle the spin/trajectory just fine. And even though the result of the FH receive wasn't a high quality shot, you at least got the ball on the table nearly every time. Which goes to show you are for the most part reading the serves.

The difference is on the FH you aren't aggressively flicking your wrist, and therefore, your racket is where it needs to be when you contact the ball. Not the case on your BH, which is the adjustment you need to make.

 

[Zezima]

You both hit on something important, and in a sense both are right. First, you need to accept that yes, it is primarily a technique issue, but I'll explain later why you're also right. Second, you hit on an important point regarding time to adjust to the incoming ball. A bigger motion has 2 major downsides, both related to time but different. One is as others have mentioned, you may not have enough time to execute the whole motion. This IMO is not the problem here, his service is not that fast. A lot of them are in fact slow enough to be killed. They just seem faster because he doesn't toss the ball, which BTW is a far bigger issue than starting the toss below the table.

The second issue with a bigger motion is IMO what's plaguing you more. With a bigger motion, you need to decide earlier where the ball will be and therefore you'll have less time to adjust to the ball. You'll also be starting the motion with the ball closer to your racket, so less adjustment will be needed to begin with.

This is a very important technique to learn. Your opponent's service is fairly sloppy and eventually you'll be good enough to just kill them, so you're right in the sense that if you could judge the ball better you'll be able to receive it. However, when you reach that level with your judgment and BH loop you'll also be competing against guys who'll serve faster, spinnier, and with more deception. You'll thus be facing the same issues you're facing now, and again you'll need to use a smaller motion to handle those services. The key here is that your judgment is good enough for this level, your technique isn't and hence the reason everyone is telling you this is what you need to work on.

Ok I can see why going for a shorter stroke would make sense here but then it's still a decisionmaking issue. It was awkward for me because I was not struggeling with the pace of the ball per se but where to contact would be when hitting the ball. So I was always going for the normal bigger stroke but misjudging at the last moment fucked up the entire movement. It either kicked into me, kicked more to the side, or it slowed down more than I expected.

So in the end I think a shorter stroke helps with short term success maybe but I still need to understand the trajectory of the balls so I can start with my normal backstroke atleast for this pace until someone can serve faster than this.

So I disagree with you and still think judgement was terrible and this seems to be just a potential quickfix. It's like going for a short fh wrist only loop vs long slow backspin ball even though there was enough time to use long backstroke.
The main problem is not the time but not understanding how the ball flys after it hits my side. And again I do agree with the shorter stroke I might have returned more balls. It just doesnt solve the bigger issue. Playing 8 sets and not knowing whats gonna happen 90% even in the last set is a big proof of this.

But nevertheless I will try to use my bh wrist less does that mean the racket head shows to my left and not towards my stomache?

 

[NetProphet]

There are high level players from the world class level down to the national levels who serve extremely illegally, who play in tournaments refereed by qualified referee. And yet they've been serving highly illegally for years and get away with it most of the time. That is my point. It sounds nice in theory, just not how it happens in reality.

True
Watch Mikka from Pingfinity as an example. I've watched a few of his matches lately and his toss is quite more than 30°.
I don't think he gains much advantage from it and I'm certainly not calling him a cheat but it backs what you've said. He's a high level player, playing in Spain div 2 now and he doesn't serve properly 🤷

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Ok I can see why going for a shorter stroke would make sense here but then it's still a decisionmaking issue. It was awkward for me because I was not struggeling with the pace of the ball per se but where to contact would be when hitting the ball. So I was always going for the normal bigger stroke but misjudging at the last moment fucked up the entire movement. It either kicked into me, kicked more to the side, or it slowed down more than I expected.

So in the end I think a shorter stroke helps with short term success maybe but I still need to understand the trajectory of the balls so I can start with my normal backstroke atleast for this pace until someone can serve faster than this.

No. I think it’s better to stay with a short stroke even if the ball isn’t that fast . To have same form and unified technique. Makes it simpler for you. Only if the ball is a “penalty” you try to kill it with a larger stroke. Else if it’s less quality try to go with a bit more spin or better placement but keep short stroke

—-

Regarding understanding the trajectory, my advice is not to move at all until the ball makes its first bounce. It will feel counterintuitive because you may feel you’re late and rushed by the serve but it will help you see better the trajectory. A common problem is to move too early and misjudging the trajectory due to sidespin, and stepping too much or not enough

If you move too early you don’t have the time to make a second adjustment and you’re not at the right place.

Actually your opponent serve is not always that fast so you will see quickly a difference. When it’s really fast, yes sometimes you’ll be late at first but with practice it will get better .

 

[dingyibvs]

Ok I can see why going for a shorter stroke would make sense here but then it's still a decisionmaking issue. It was awkward for me because I was not struggeling with the pace of the ball per se but where to contact would be when hitting the ball. So I was always going for the normal bigger stroke but misjudging at the last moment fucked up the entire movement. It either kicked into me, kicked more to the side, or it slowed down more than I expected.

So in the end I think a shorter stroke helps with short term success maybe but I still need to understand the trajectory of the balls so I can start with my normal backstroke atleast for this pace until someone can serve faster than this.

So I disagree with you and still think judgement was terrible and this seems to be just a potential quickfix. It's like going for a short fh wrist only loop vs long slow backspin ball even though there was enough time to use long backstroke.
The main problem is not the time but not understanding how the ball flys after it hits my side. And again I do agree with the shorter stroke I might have returned more balls. It just doesnt solve the bigger issue. Playing 8 sets and not knowing whats gonna happen 90% even in the last set is a big proof of this.

But nevertheless I will try to use my bh wrist less does that mean the racket head shows to my left and not towards my stomache?

You can certainly improve your judgment, but a shorter action is something that'll always be useful, short term and long term. You can actually generate a pretty powerful shot from a short stroke, but for BH receives power isn't usually the focus, but rather placement.

 

[blahness]

No. I think it’s better to stay with a short stroke even if the ball isn’t that fast . To have same form and unified technique. Makes it simpler for you. Only if the ball is a “penalty” you try to kill it with a larger stroke. Else if it’s less quality try to go with a bit more spin or better placement but keep short stroke

—-

Regarding understanding the trajectory, my advice is not to move at all until the ball makes its first bounce. It will feel counterintuitive because you may feel you’re late and rushed by the serve but it will help you see better the trajectory. A common problem is to move too early and misjudging the trajectory due to sidespin, and stepping too much or not enough

If you move too early you don’t have the time to make a second adjustment and you’re not at the right place.

Actually your opponent serve is not always that fast so you will see quickly a difference. When it’s really fast, yes sometimes you’ll be late at first but with practice it will get better .

Yep, it is better to be conservative and spin the ball up with a short stroke against fast long serves. Even in pro matches, you seldom see them ever attempting BH powerloops on quality fast long serves because it is just way too risky and the error rates are too high.

Unless the server gives you a freebie ie slow serve that drifts long, and with obvious spin.

 

[Zezima]

No. I think it’s better to stay with a short stroke even if the ball isn’t that fast . To have same form and unified technique. Makes it simpler for you. Only if the ball is a “penalty” you try to kill it with a larger stroke. Else if it’s less quality try to go with a bit more spin or better placement but keep short stroke

—-

Regarding understanding the trajectory, my advice is not to move at all until the ball makes its first bounce. It will feel counterintuitive because you may feel you’re late and rushed by the serve but it will help you see better the trajectory. A common problem is to move too early and misjudging the trajectory due to sidespin, and stepping too much or not enough

If you move too early you don’t have the time to make a second adjustment and you’re not at the right place.

Actually your opponent serve is not always that fast so you will see quickly a difference. When it’s really fast, yes sometimes you’ll be late at first but with practice it will get better .

You contradict yourself. If you want spin then you have to curl your wrist. Without or less wrist you won't be able to generate as much spin.

You mean first bounce on their side or on my side? I see pros starting to move even before the opp has hit the ball. It also makes sense and it was also something I was working and actually still work on my receive that I make that premature step. Someone was also talking in the video about this. Many instances actually. It's easier to move when your moving already than from a static not moving position.

This is also a big mind fuck up since we all agree that the serve is fast but not so fast 95% the time atleast. So I have time for the "big" stroke (for me its just natural) I can go even bigger actually if my goal is hit a full hard winner bh ts. But just before the contact I get confused on what to do how the swingpath should be etc. But until that point I have the time of the world. Atleast it felt that way. On Fh I can by nature let the spin die out further and take it later on my side. On bh it has to be in front of the body so less time so I need to be more precise there.

Also if you are talking about a shorter stroke please send an example video of one. Because the way you describe it it feels more of a bh drive. But thats not a topspin to me and is more hitting.

 

[Zezima]

2:37 good example it worked
28:22 this is more like a "soft" brush/drive
29:32 here I figured the right "tempo" to hit the ball to just bring it safe on the table. In case it was with topspin I didn't put much force into the ball.

Balls like these confused me the most:

Sometimes got rewarded sometimes not. Here is an example where I didn't get rewarded. It looks like I was brushing the ball but the ball had backspin it seems and I hit it more forwards thinking its just sidespin/sidespin top.

I also really like my bh in the rally:

I need to stop watching if the ball lands on the table. The ball has left my paddle long time ago and I am watching as if I can still control the balls trajectory hitting 2 more weak fh in a row because I am too upright have to get low and by then I can only hit the ball very late.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

If you want spin then you have to curl your wrist.

Not true for every single shot, including the one you are struggling with here.

2:37 good example it worked
28:22 this is more like a "soft" brush/drive
29:32 here I figured the right "tempo" to hit the ball to just bring it safe on the table. In case it was with topspin I didn't put much force into the ball.

Sometimes got rewarded sometimes not. Here is an example where I didn't get rewarded. It looks like I was brushing the ball but the ball had backspin it seems and I hit it more forwards thinking its just sidespin/sidespin top.

Just because something works sometimes doesn't mean that it is reliable or the best way of doing something for maximum results.

You could have this guy tell you what serve he is doing and to where, and with the amount of wrist snap you are using you would still miss a large amount of them, I would wager.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

You contradict yourself. If you want spin then you have to curl your wrist. Without or less wrist you won't be able to generate as much spin.

You mean first bounce on their side or on my side? I see pros starting to move even before the opp has hit the ball. It also makes sense and it was also something I was working and actually still work on my receive that I make that premature step. Someone was also talking in the video about this. Many instances actually. It's easier to move when your moving already than from a static not moving position.

This is also a big mind fuck up since we all agree that the serve is fast but not so fast 95% the time atleast. So I have time for the "big" stroke (for me its just natural) I can go even bigger actually if my goal is hit a full hard winner bh ts. But just before the contact I get confused on what to do how the swingpath should be etc. But until that point I have the time of the world. Atleast it felt that way. On Fh I can by nature let the spin die out further and take it later on my side. On bh it has to be in front of the body so less time so I need to be more precise there.

Also if you are talking about a shorter stroke please send an example video of one. Because the way you describe it it feels more of a bh drive. But thats not a topspin to me and is more hitting.

Good illustration with minimum backswing but it could be even more compact with more wrist and less follow through

I mean first bounce on their side.
Don’t imitate pros on everything . If you move before the opponent has even hit his serve many times you’ll move to the wrong position or the good server will see it and serve on the other direction.

It will help you only against your own teammate that you know by heart because your brain know his serve patterns but when you play against an unknown opponent it will cost you many points

 

[blahness]

All the examples where it worked was because he served too slow and not so spinny. If he really served fast long you would still have no chance with that BH backswing.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

 

[NextLevel]

Not sure how much that applies to @Zezima though. ZJK specifically qualified what he considers to be "effective" technique, which should result in good contact. He even demonstrated what he considers poor contact, a brushy shot that exactly represents what @Zezima was doing and the main thing that he wants to improve on.


That's assuming he misses significantly less or creates more quality with other, softer rubbers though. The other issue is whether his stroke can activate the blade. Sometimes that's the limiting factor. I've never tried Korbel Japan so I don't know how easy that blade activates, but his other blade, the W968 is not a terribly easy one to activate. Even D09c is not a great fit for it because despite how hard D09c is, it actually starts to activate earlier than the blade..

Zezima was always capable of doing the not-so brushy shot. He had a closed racket-edging problem, but he fixed that pretty plainly. The posts of pros, the comparison of this to that, well, there is a context for that, but it will always have its limits to someone who is trying to win matches with effective technique. Chasing the form of professionals is not the answer as much as improving your technique and making sure it solves problems that you face scoring points in your matches and that it doesn't get you injured.

One thing that ZJK doesn't discuss but just about anyone who has played Timo will tell you (and I note this because I have the same issue with how my technique evolved) is that Timo has an excessively brushy forehand which he just uses to remain consistent. It had value with the old cell balls but no longer does because the balls are now much easier to block and counter.