Returning player (AR+/OFF–) looking for versatile rubbers for Xiom Hugo HAL [no longer: Cybershape Wood]

[PoppaChubby]

That easy, heh? So your recommendation is any ESN in 2,0–2,1mm on both sides. Vega Pro, Vega X, Fastarc G-1, Mantra Pro M — etc, all good?

I like the concept of identical sides, but could you please elaborate on your reasoning still?

Ok: you need something that can spin enough but that won't be that much sensitive to your opponent's spin, on the receive game for instance. and ESN non hybrid rubbers are perfect for that matter.

You need something you won't have to use that much power to throw your top-spins, and hard sponge need power to be activated, hence the use of medium sponge in a 2.0 mm/2.1 mm.

The Tibhar Samsonov Force Pro Black is well balanced, it's exactly in the the AR+/OFF- range at around 1300 Hz, perfect for blocking, touch play, short game, and so on. No carbon to reduce vibrations, because actually you STILL NEED those vibrations cos' they'll give you the informations you need to feel the ball. All wood might be slow, but they're slow with hybrid/tacky hard sponge rubbers, not with regular non hybrid medium hardness rubbers.

 

[PoppaChubby]

But, yeah... the Stiga DNA Pro M wins it for me when I want to be more active close to the table. Now I'm a bit a pusher/blocker, and will throw heavy slow BH topspins at the elbow of my opponent to prepare the next kill shot, cos' at my level most of the time the ball comes back higher.

The Rasanters .... no, too much bouncy, the Dna Pro M is well balanced too.

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

I meant rather how C-1 compares to Vega Europe/Rakza 7/7 Soft, as a BH-alternatuve – hopefully less bouncy (and maybe more spinney/grippy)

With soft rubbers like C1, R7S and VE, I feel they are all pretty similar so picking apart the minutiae is like trying to split hairs, but C1 is a bit firmer than VE, and I did feel VE was a little bouncier on soft contact because of that

Compared to R7S and VE, C1 is firmer with lower arc. R7S is a little harder than VE but it is still a bit softer than C1

R7 is harder than all these rubbers and is less bouncy and reactive, but with stronger support from the firmer sponge

 

[S2000]

To be honest I've only every used max thickness rubbers. Thinner sponge is really more for defenders or maybe all-rounders. Based on the rubbers you're considering, I'm pretty sure you lean offensive. Just get max thickness and train to control it.

That easy, heh? So your recommendation is any ESN in 2,0–2,1mm on both sides. Vega Pro, Vega X, Fastarc G-1, Mantra Pro M — etc, all good?

I like the concept of identical sides, but could you please elaborate on your reasoning still?

Mantra Pro is less spin sensitive than Rakza 7/7 soft. MP in medium maybe more controllable than R7 - R7soft controllable but more spin sensitive than mantra Pro. G1 I have not used. All of these rubbers make many blades faster so maybe better to start with new rubber than with new rubber and blade. It also depends upon your style if you are a power player than it helps with faster setup but might take quite longer time to control. I made that travel myself.

 

[Doppelschlag]

So guys, I thought it appropriate to report back to you after all your amazing support. It did not turn out exactly as planned, and I will need your help again. First though, here some pics of the setup. My issues in the next post.

 

[Doppelschlag]

So, after playing with this setup for about a month, I think I need to downgrade the rubbers slightly. I went to the store with my blade, intending to buy Fastarc G-1 in 1.8 mm on both sides, with Vega X as a backup option. The seller, who felt very competent and actually listened, steered me towards Vega X (even though he could have sold me the Fastarc at a higher price).

Regarding thickness, he advised against 1.8 mm, reasoning that it could be too thin, with a risk of hitting “through” the sponge and onto the wood. We also had a somewhat philosophical discussion about how some countries — for example Sweden — traditionally don’t start players with thinner rubbers, but rather with softer ones (which would make sense given that Stiga has almost no rubbers below 2.1 mm …).

Anyway, I went with his reasoning, bought Vega X in 2.0 mm on both sides. It is fun to play with, and in the open game I really enjoy it. But in the end, and especially when playing against clearly stronger players, I do have the feeling that the setup is:

• a tad so fast
• lacking a tad in control
• a tad to spin-sensitive.

So, before throwing the baby out with the dishwasher (!), I have a second blade to experiment with and swap rubbers around. It’s a Donic Persson Powerplay, with: a Donic Persson Powerplay, with

• Xiom Omega VII Europe (unknown thickness, probably 2.0 or MAX)
• Tibhar Evolution FX-S (unknown thickness, probably 2.0 or MAX)

One option would be to buy one Fastarc in 1.8 mm and, on the other side, swap a rubber from the Donic, so that I have Omega VII Europe on the backhand. Or should I go with Fastarc on one side and keep Vega X on the other?

Is there any real merit to the seller’s argument regarding thickness? What thickness do you think I should get the Nittaku in, if I go that route? It seems to be one of the most recommended rubbers on this forum. According to Nittaku, they describe the thicknesses as: 1.8 mm = “thick”, 2.0 mm = “super thick”, MAX.

Any other suggestions instead? Stiga Mantra Pro M? Donic? Etc., etc.?

Another black horse that a very good player recommended me was Xiom Jekyll & Hyde V 47,5. His description of it was: a non-tacky hybrid, whose characteristic is that it is very slow/non-bouncy in the short game, but have high gears when you put power behind it. Which for me sounds very attractive. What makes me a bit reluctant are many reviews, but maybe people don’t really understand the characteristics of this special rubber. Your thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

 

[K.K]

Another black horse that a very good player recommended me was Xiom Jekyll & Hyde V 47,5. His description of it was: a non-tacky hybrid, whose characteristic is that it is very slow/non-bouncy in the short game, but have high gears when you put power behind it. Which for me sounds very attractive. What makes me a bit reluctant are many reviews, but maybe people don’t really understand the characteristics of this special rubber. Your thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

i think you are overcomplicating things a bit, you have a faster blade hence the reason why you struggle. take the donic persson and slap both the vega x on it and you will be fine.

you shure can make tiny micro adjustments too and go to nittaku g-1 (actually better would be vega-pro) and get bit higher arc, but speed and sensitivity wise there all the same basically

 

[K.K]

Is there any real merit to the seller’s argument regarding thickness? What thickness do you think I should get the Nittaku in, if I go that route? It seems to be one of the most recommended rubbers on this forum. According to Nittaku, they describe the thicknesses as: 1.8 mm = “thick”, 2.0 mm = “super thick”, MAX.

regarding the sponge thickness: that is purely a preference thing but in my opinion if you wanna play with spin, just choose max thickness and don't care about anything else. if it is to fast, get a slower blade. if you play more flat without spin like a blocker or a hitter you can play thinner sponges, you will feel the blade more and have less dwell.

 

[golden_son]

So guys, I thought it appropriate to report back to you after all your amazing support. It did not turn out exactly as planned, and I will need your help again. First though, here some pics of the setup. My issues in the next post. View attachment 39718View attachment 39719View attachment 39720View attachment 39721View attachment 39722

These are gorgeous shots by the way

 

[NextLevel]

So, after playing with this setup for about a month, I think I need to downgrade the rubbers slightly. I went to the store with my blade, intending to buy Fastarc G-1 in 1.8 mm on both sides, with Vega X as a backup option. The seller, who felt very competent and actually listened, steered me towards Vega X (even though he could have sold me the Fastarc at a higher price).

Regarding thickness, he advised against 1.8 mm, reasoning that it could be too thin, with a risk of hitting “through” the sponge and onto the wood. We also had a somewhat philosophical discussion about how some countries — for example Sweden — traditionally don’t start players with thinner rubbers, but rather with softer ones (which would make sense given that Stiga has almost no rubbers below 2.1 mm …).

Anyway, I went with his reasoning, bought Vega X in 2.0 mm on both sides. It is fun to play with, and in the open game I really enjoy it. But in the end, and especially when playing against clearly stronger players, I do have the feeling that the setup is:

• a tad so fast
• lacking a tad in control
• a tad to spin-sensitive.

So, before throwing the baby out with the dishwasher (!), I have a second blade to experiment with and swap rubbers around. It’s a Donic Persson Powerplay, with: a Donic Persson Powerplay, with

• Xiom Omega VII Europe (unknown thickness, probably 2.0 or MAX)
• Tibhar Evolution FX-S (unknown thickness, probably 2.0 or MAX)

One option would be to buy one Fastarc in 1.8 mm and, on the other side, swap a rubber from the Donic, so that I have Omega VII Europe on the backhand. Or should I go with Fastarc on one side and keep Vega X on the other?

Is there any real merit to the seller’s argument regarding thickness? What thickness do you think I should get the Nittaku in, if I go that route? It seems to be one of the most recommended rubbers on this forum. According to Nittaku, they describe the thicknesses as: 1.8 mm = “thick”, 2.0 mm = “super thick”, MAX.

Any other suggestions instead? Stiga Mantra Pro M? Donic? Etc., etc.?

Another black horse that a very good player recommended me was Xiom Jekyll & Hyde V 47,5. His description of it was: a non-tacky hybrid, whose characteristic is that it is very slow/non-bouncy in the short game, but have high gears when you put power behind it. Which for me sounds very attractive. What makes me a bit reluctant are many reviews, but maybe people don’t really understand the characteristics of this special rubber. Your thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

Your results against stronger players is not a great way to evaluate your needs. How much stronger they are is not clear and if you really feel it is about equipment, just get what they are using and call it a day. If you don't want to get what they are using, the real solution to your issues is what is called range training - practice producing a wide range of outgoing shots to a wide range of incoming balls over time and learning how to adapt your read of the incoming ball to produce a higher quality outgoing ball. None of this is magic, it is almost all adaptation once you have the practice requirements locked in.

 

[Doppelschlag]

regarding the sponge thickness: that is purely a preference thing but in my opinion if you wanna play with spin, just choose max thickness and don't care about anything else. if it is to fast, get a slower blade. if you play more flat without spin like a blocker or a hitter you can play thinner sponges, you will feel the blade more and have less dwell.

Thanks. Actually, never played with the Donic Persson, it’s just my backup, that I got from a friend for 10 bucks.

But you still think, better to use a slower blade than slower rubbers? I come from using a Donic Smirnov Inner Carbon before.

I mean, I could just swap one Vega X with the Omega VII Europe – that way, I can test both the Vega X on slower blade, and the slower rubber on my faster blade.

 

[Doppelschlag]

i think you are overcomplicating things a bit, you have a faster blade hence the reason why you struggle. take the donic persson and slap both the vega x on it and you will be fine.

you shure can make tiny micro adjustments too and go to nittaku g-1 (actually better would be vega-pro) and get bit higher arc, but speed and sensitivity wise there all the same basically

Why would you prefer Vega Pro over Fastarc? And are these really micro adjustments only, are they so similar? In any case, I thought they would go in my preferred direction on all three parameters. Regarding thickness, well, I am still developing, and have no particular style of play, so don’t know if it is particularly spinny. Still think 1.8 is too thin? 2.0 a better middle way?

 

[Doppelschlag]

These are gorgeous shots by the way

Thanks, man!

 

[Der_Echte]

Hey everyone,
I’m returning to the game after a long break and could use some input on rubbers for my next setup. Thanks to help from the forum, I have landed here:

About me

• Probably an all-round type of player, focusing on placement and variation rather than power.
• I move well and stay active on my feet, and generally have a good feeling for the ball.
• Not a technical looper yet, but working hard on improving my technique.
• Training 2–4 times a week, sometimes with a group coach.
• I can keep up with many club players, but my technique is a bit rusty and inconsistent.

How much I’ve played
I played during my elementary school years, probably 1–2 hours a day for 9 years. Not in a club—played in my elementary school—however against many skilled team players. So the feeling and movements are very much deep ingrained in me. Break was 20 years though, I’m around 40 now. My new club mates want med to compete right away though.

What I’m looking for

• A rubber that doesn’t lock me in – something versatile for developing all aspects of the game.
• Preferably a similar feel on both FH and BH for a smoother learning curve.
• I might explore hybrids later, but for now I want something solid and forgiving.

What I’ve tried recently

• Smirnov Inner Carbon – was given to me used from a club player (with DHS 729 and Xiom Vega Europe) – a bit hard, but manageable. Probably has a small hair crack …
• Persson Power AR with Xiom Vega Pro – could control it well, not too fast for me, maybe lacking a bit in spin.
• Currently trying Vega Europe H on the Smirnov, which feels nice. Also a gift.

Blade I plan to buy

• Stiga Cybershape Wood, (probably non-CWT), with ST handle.
  I really like the feel and balance. If you have better suggestions for something similar, I’m all ears.

---

Rubber options​

Based on quite some amount of reading here on TTD …

Option 1
FH & BH: Nittaku Fastarc G-1

• + Very balanced and proven “get-and-forget” rubber
• – Slightly expensive, but known for great durability. Too fast?

Option 2
FH & BH: Xiom Vega X 1.8 mm (or maybe 2.0 mm on FH)

• + Good value and durable. Tad slower than Nittaku? Many players in my club’s best team play this.
• – Seems to be slightly behind the G-1 slightly in most areas?

Option 3
FH & BH: Tibhar Hybrid MK (2.0 mm, or MK FX on BH)

• + Even more control and feedback
• – No 1.8 mm version (heavier)
• – Durability reportedly lower

Option 4
FH & BH: Yasaka Rakza 7 (or Rakza 7 Soft on BH)

• + Classic and reliable,
• – though perhaps a bit dated compared to newer options?

Option 5
[–>Insert your genius insights here<—]

Bonus thought
Should I already try semi-hybrids like

• Vega Pro H/Europe H
• Rakza Z
  • on both sides? Or rather wait till I know who I am (maybe answered it myself there)

---

Main question
Given my level (rusty intermediate, AR+/OFF– style), which of these setups would best support developing a balanced, modern all-round game?

TL;DR
Returning intermediate (AR+/OFF–) player looking for a balanced setup to rebuild consistency and spin.
Settled on Stiga Cybershape Wood; main rubber candidates:

• Fastarc G-1 – best all-round choice, durable but pricey?
• Vega X – cheaper, durable, slightly less spin?
• Hybrid MK – more control, lower durability?
• (Rakza 7 – reliable classic?)
  ((Wondering if I should already test semi-hybrids (Vega Pro H / Europe H).))

Hi @johlie

You seem to be going about it alright. (Figuring out what is middle zone of appropriate for what you do and will do... and getting something at or near it)

as for blades, EVERY maker has one or three wood blades in the All+ to OFF- range that will work fine for this mission.

This means 100+ choices here, do not sweat too much, get any of them. I got the Donic Persson Power Play... cost me $30 USD at TT11 without VAT, should be under 50USD with tax for you... an absolute bargain solution... but it is not the only one... The Stiga Allround Evolution is another among another hundred.

Same thing with rubbers. You have to think about how much rebound, how much dynamic, sponge hardness among same line, sponge thickness, topsheet hardness or flex... and what shots such and such rubber does well or not.

Control is defined (by my opinion) as how easy it is to do something. You want something that does most, if not ALL the shots you do well... you will never get something that does 100 out of 100 in every kind of shot. Such a rubber does not exist. Simply find one that does more than well enough in all your areas.

A lot of the current modern dynamic rubbers with a softer topsheet (Think maybe the Donic Bluestar and some of the early modern dynamic ones (Think Tibhar Aurus) will be suitable. Nearly every makers has one or three appropriate ones.

The setup in my sig is the center of mass for this.

Versitile all wood OFF- blade

FH rubber does all well, medium firmness, easy to spin or hit

BH rubber does all well, easy to spin and hit, even easier due to softer sponge... 42 degrees is Aurus Soft and 38ish is Aurus Sound... I can do everything with these rubbers with easy.

Sure, the spin is not as easy and high on a loop drive as it is with D05, but it is still super and I land shots with Aurus that I am not capable of doing as consistently if I use D05.

What I use isn't the supreme do all end it all, but it is the center of what I do well... and any player can learn and execute any offensive and allround shot using what I choose or ANY setup in that zone.

It is not needed to get exactly what I use, but something in that zone of appropriateness for what you do and will do.

Good thing is my entire setup costs less than one sheet of BTY rubber and I crush all the BTY users at or below my level with my inexpensive setup that is not name/model brand flashy.

 

[Der_Echte]

I am not so old school in my recommendations of sponge thickness... for the Donic and Tibhar line... 2.1 mm thickness.

A player in this era needs to be able to make spin for every kind of shot... 2.1 makes more spin easier on slow/heavy opening topspin, which should be a priority for 90%+ of developing and matured players.

 

[K.K]

Why would you prefer Vega Pro over Fastarc? And are these really micro adjustments only, are they so similar? In any case, I thought they would go in my preferred direction on all three parameters. Regarding thickness, well, I am still developing, and have no particular style of play, so don’t know if it is particularly spinny. Still think 1.8 is too thin? 2.0 a better middle way?

because vega pro is a bit easier, bouncier and less spin sensitiv and cheaper, but you could play with either or because that is really minor and especially if you are developing! all those things like sponge thickness really doesn't matter as much as you think, if you still need to get the basics right. just get a good slow blade (like the donic is great!) and some medium hard rubber (like vega x in 2,0) and stick with them for at least a year. to stick with something is way more important then all these minor things if you are just finding out who you are as a player.

the omega rubber should be faster then vega x, because omega is the pro-line and vega the amateur-line, but i never played that rubber

 

[S2000]

Thanks. Actually, never played with the Donic Persson, it’s just my backup, that I got from a friend for 10 bucks.

But you still think, better to use a slower blade than slower rubbers? I come from using a Donic Smirnov Inner Carbon before.

I mean, I could just swap one Vega X with the Omega VII Europe – that way, I can test both the Vega X on slower blade, and the slower rubber on my faster blade.

Hello - the question with a faster setup is if you can do the short play? Here the spin sensitivity and the total initial speed and when the carbon kicks in as important aspects. particularly when one is less used ti the setup. I am using a Donic Waldner Offensive )(not offensive by today's means) but has grown from soft to medium ESN rubbers. I find that Stiga Mantra Pro is decently insensitive to spin, at least compared to Rakza 7 which is comparable to G1. All these rubbers have a decent arch. A lower but maybe better controlled rubber is something similar to Stiga DNA Hybrid which also has a decent close to the table control. It has a lower arch though. Some people who like really good control go for a soft rubber like rakza 7 soft which makes for an easier defensive play particularly backspin strokes and ballon strokes. For blocking the medium and hard rubbers and the semi-tacky rubbers are maybe better. Also very good for controlled loops but a bit slow compared to the alternatives above. In comparison to Xiom - I d not know have not played.

As for thinner rubber - this depends upon your style - for more offensive type then use a thick rubber. I often hit through the rubber and then the speed is maxed particularly for a wood blade - could be different for carbon blades but some carbon blades show similar effect.

Good luck!

 

[Doppelschlag]

[…]

the omega rubber should be faster then vega x, because omega is the pro-line and vega the amateur-line, but i never played that rubber

But the Omega VII Europe is still softer (45°) than Vega X, right?

 

[Doppelschlag]

Ok, so in yesterday's training session I played for an hour with a friend’s bat. She had a Victas Swat Carbon with

• FH: Tibhar Hybrid K1 2.0 mm
• BH: Xiom Vega Europe 1.8mm

Since I’ve played Vega Europe on many blades now, I am confident to say that the her and my blades are somewhere in the same ballpark, for me to possibly gauge the rubbers.

(Background: My very first impulse after getting my HAL was to get a soft hybrid on FH, but the seller talked me out of it, so here I am with Vega X. I am returing after a long hiatus. Have good basic movements and feel, but need work on technique. Allround/non-specific style of play.)

Straightaway, I really liked the concept of her setup. So I need your help replicate it for me. The K1 felt easy to handle, and didn't realize until coming home googling it that is 50°. I absolutely felt more controllable than Vega X.

1. First question: But since I’m new to hybrids, maybe still go with a medium hybrid?

2. And: dipping my toes into hybrids, do you think I should put it on both sides directly, or rather start with FH only?

Therefore, what do you think about:
FH: Medium Hybrid, 45–48°
BH: Soft Tensor, 45°

For FH, I am nominating, as of people’s recommendations above:

1. Victas V>15 Sticky Soft
2. Nuzn 45 (maybe too soft? Or maybe not …?)
3. Xiom Vega Pro H
4. Victas V>20
5. Stiga Hybrid …?

3. Is it true that this whole category is relatively insensitive to incoming spin?

My top candidates are Victas V>15 Sticky Soft or Nuzn 45. Has anyone compared these? Victas is said to be a tad bouncier in the short game. Maybe Nuzn 45 is the wisest choice, if not overestimating myself?

For BH I already own a Xiom Omega VII Europe (probably 2.0, or Max), and also a Vega Europe 1.8mm. Someone said that the Omega VII is very fast, but it is softer. The Omega Europe would probably still be a tad slower and more playable than the Vega X?

This is a partial repost from another thread, where I asked about sticky rubbers only.

 

[NetProphet]

Ok, so in yesterday's training session I played for an hour with a friend’s bat. She had a Victas Swat Carbon with

• FH: Tibhar Hybrid K1 2.0 mm
• BH: Xiom Vega Europe 1.8mm

Since I’ve played Vega Europe on many blades now, I am confident to say that the her and my blades are somewhere in the same ballpark, for me to possibly gauge the rubbers.

(Background: My very first impulse after getting my HAL was to get a soft hybrid on FH, but the seller talked me out of it, so here I am with Vega X. I am returing after a long hiatus. Have good basic movements and feel, but need work on technique. Allround/non-specific style of play.)

Straightaway, I really liked the concept of her setup. So I need your help replicate it for me. The K1 felt easy to handle, and didn't realize until coming home googling it that is 50°. I absolutely felt more controllable than Vega X.

1. First question: But since I’m new to hybrids, maybe still go with a medium hybrid?

2. And: dipping my toes into hybrids, do you think I should put it on both sides directly, or rather start with FH only?

Therefore, what do you think about:
FH: Medium Hybrid, 45–48°
BH: Soft Tensor, 45°

For FH, I am nominating, as of people’s recommendations above:

1. Victas V>15 Sticky Soft
2. Nuzn 45 (maybe too soft? Or maybe not …?)
3. Xiom Vega Pro H
4. Victas V>20
5. Stiga Hybrid …?

3. Is it true that this whole category is relatively insensitive to incoming spin?

My top candidates are Victas V>15 Sticky Soft or Nuzn 45. Has anyone compared these? Victas is said to be a tad bouncier in the short game. Maybe Nuzn 45 is the wisest choice, if not overestimating myself?

For BH I already own a Xiom Omega VII Europe (probably 2.0, or Max), and also a Vega Europe 1.8mm. Someone said that the Omega VII is very fast, but it is softer. The Omega Europe would probably still be a tad slower and more playable than the Vega X?

This is a partial repost from another thread, where I asked about sticky rubbers only.

Your biggest problem here is your outlook on this.
Check back your posts, you are obsessed with the idea that the equipment will make a big difference, so you have convinced yourself with every racket you've picked up that the equipment is making a big difference.
Almost any all wood blade with Rakza 7, Butterfly Rozena, Vega X, Vega Europe would have been perfect for 12 months, even G1 both sides would be fine as long as you stick with it and commit to it.
Believing there is a perfect perfect setup at this level will have you constantly doubting your equipment and that is gonna be bad for your game. It's all good so just fire ahead and have fun with it.
You're not selecting Viscaria with D09c and Boosted H3 so you are miles away from the big mistakes.
You will do your head in if you keep digging into this.
If all of this is really about getting better then keep what you have and invest your money and effort in coaching and practice.
Enjoy!