Rubber throw angle topic again.

[guni4you]

Practically speaking, the throw angle matters in how much brushing is needed to create an arc. For a lower throw rubber, you'd need to brush more (i.e. racket movement needs to be more tangential to the ball movement) in order to create an arc, otherwise the ball trajectory would be too flat. Conversely, with a higher throw rubber you can hit more and still create a good arc. This is preferable to loopers as it increases the margin of error when looping a high speed, fast dipping incoming topspin ball as well as creating a faster ball.

This is a perfect explanation. This is the reason I like dignics 09c ( which has an extremely high throw ) more over tibhar K3 as I can just go forward, hit more than brush and the ball still has a good arc and goes over the net. Game becomes more simple and i can just focus on using power and going forward.

 

[brokenball]

@USDC
Asking questions is harassment?
Posting a Lord Kelvin quote is harassment?
Is this forum a woke safe space?
How is asking questions about the definition de-railment?
What are you going to do about those derailing my topics?
I am just asking questions.
Is asking questions "acting badly?"

I have given the definition in terms of COR many times.
I have posted links to the tieffenbacher.pdf that explains much MANY times.
I bet you could give a definition in terms of COR. If you can then you have remembered something I have written before.

Why doesn't this forum have a sticky space where the Tieffenbach.pdf can be accessed easily. How about a place were definitions can be stickied?

 

[lodro]

The prove is in the pudding or the popcorn.
Take your blade and put it flat on the edge of a table that is perfectly level. Drop a ball from various heights on to the blade.
See: No arc. 😁
The throw arc must be in the wrist.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

@USDC
Asking questions is harassment?
Posting a Lord Kelvin quote is harassment?
Is this forum a woke safe space?
How is asking questions about the definition de-railment?
What are you going to do about those derailing my topics?
I am just asking questions.
Is asking questions "acting badly?"

I have given the definition in terms of COR many times.
I have posted links to the tieffenbacher.pdf that explains much MANY times.
I bet you could give a definition in terms of COR. If you can then you have remembered something I have written before.

Why doesn't this forum have a sticky space where the Tieffenbach.pdf can be accessed easily. How about a place were definitions can be stickied?

For you, it is just worth knowing that people receive your comments as rude and harassing. You could probably say the same things, ask the same questions and do it in a way where people do not feel that.

But what would be the big deal of you explaining the information more than once without it sounding like you are accusing people of being uninformed and unintelligent?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

What are you going to do about those derailing my topics?

I agree that you have a point about this. Your topic could be really interesting. And it seems many of the comments were off topic and derisive.

 

[NextLevel]

Personally, I find these throw angle/dwell time discussions very entertaining (popcorn time!!!) and yet ultimately completely pointless and counterproductive.

If manufacturer says rubber A is high-throw and rubber B is low-throw, does that mean we cannot produce a low-arc loop with rubber A? Of course, we can. Does it mean that all loops produced with rubber B are destined to be low-arc? Of course, not.

Equipment you use is just a tool to achieve results, we just need to understand how to use it and that comes from time spent practicing at the table.

Instead of obsessing with throw angles/dwell times/COR coefficients, it is far more productive to concentrate on mastering shot technique and learning how to control the ball trajectory (speed/spin/arc/depth on opponent's side) dependent on the ball your opponent played by making adjustments to account for varying speed/spin/arc/depth of the incoming ball with the same rubber you've got on your bat.

This will actually make you a better player.

I couldn't find the "LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE" button... to play a mild devil's advocate, I do think sponge hardness has a role here, especially when playing power shots.

 

[vvk1]

I couldn't find the "LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE" button... to play a mild devil's advocate, I do think sponge hardness has a role here, especially when playing power shots.

No disagreement here. I'd rather these discussion were about how sponge hardness (or better - overall perceived/effective rubber hardness) affects the shots.

 

[IB66]

There have been many good answers in this thread.
I think the term ‘throw angle’ is always taken with a view to TOPSPIN play, because that’s the ‘NORM’ and is really quite one dimensional.

It would be interesting to see the same manufacturers produce the lovely flight path trajectory for a push v backspin!!!

So I do have a question

Does ’high throw’ mean ‘spin sensitive’ ??? Are they linked???

In practical, playing situations, if you have adjust and close the face when playing topspin rallies to keep the ball lower over the net, it’s likely you’ll have to open the face slightly more playing against backspin.

Is this because the rubber / sponge combo is ‘spin sensitive‘ or has a ‘high throw‘ ??? maybe some of both!!!!

At the end of the day, play, adjust and enjoy!!!!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Instead of obsessing with throw angles/dwell times/COR coefficients, it is far more productive to concentrate on mastering shot technique and learning how to control the ball trajectory (speed/spin/arc/depth on opponent's side) dependent on the ball your opponent played by making adjustments to account for varying speed/spin/arc/depth of the incoming ball with the same rubber you've got on your bat.

This will actually make you a better player.

AGREE

I some times wonder, all these fetish on numbers.
IF 2 number/science guys get together and play a game of table tennis.... Is this what the scenario of actual game play will become?

Player A:
I am standing x degree with x degree, with 2354435q3 ##4 4$#^2435 and i'm going to toss the ball 42.6531cm high, at x velocity and x this and y that times zeta to the power of 94721.

Then I will add x newton to y elvis and z ma long.

Player B:
I will come in with avenger force, hulk strength at telsa power and do a Lin BH flick, down the line, at x COR

and after saying 2000 words, and 15 mins later, the 2 agree that the score is now one - love?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

There have been many good answers in this thread.
I think the term ‘throw angle’ is always taken with a view to TOPSPIN play, because that’s the ‘NORM’ and is really quite one dimensional.

It would be interesting to see the same manufacturers produce the lovely flight path trajectory for a push v backspin!!!

So I do have a question

Does ’high throw’ mean ‘spin sensitive’ ??? Are they linked???

In practical, playing situations, if you have adjust and close the face when playing topspin rallies to keep the ball lower over the net, it’s likely you’ll have to open the face slightly more playing against backspin.

Is this because the rubber / sponge combo is ‘spin sensitive‘ or has a ‘high throw‘ ??? maybe some of both!!!!

At the end of the day, play, adjust and enjoy!!!!

Backspin/underspin, the bat angle does need to be more open.

I am used to very hard sponge rubbers on the FH
When I use a super soft sponge, say T05FX
I would struggle to keep the ball at a low arc over the net and still keep a decent amount of spin on.
This can be either topspin or underspin in coming balls.

Due to density of sponge, sponge type/layout, pip structure/width, top sheet etc, it all plays a role using the "same technique".
So yes, training to adjust technique would be required, or just stay with what works for you (like most high level players would - aka using the same thing for thousands of hours)

 

[lodro]

AGREE

I some times wonder, all these fetish on numbers.
IF 2 number/science guys get together and play a game of table tennis.... Is this what the scenario of actual game play will become?

Player A:
I am standing x degree with x degree, with 2354435q3 ##4 4$#^2435 and i'm going to toss the ball 42.6531cm high, at x velocity and x this and y that times zeta to the power of 94721.

Then I will add x newton to y elvis and z ma long.

Player B:
I will come in with avenger force, hulk strength at telsa power and do a Lin BH flick, down the line, at x COR

and after typing 2000 words, and 15 mins later, the 2 agree that the score is now one - love?

love it, it reminds me of something I found really absurd, it is called chess-boxing.

 

[jk1980]

HAVE FUN!!!

Wow, this video is kind of misleading. It is not really important how close or far of the bat the ball bounces before it hits the rubber, but rather what kind of impact angle that results in.
Of course if the ball bounces shortly in front of the blade in that setup the angle will be quite steep and it will basically emulate a push motion which creates backspin.
The case where the ball hits the center of the blade with a nearly 90° / perpendicular angle will result in top spin as anybody would expect.
The last case with the ball hitting the upper edge of the blade seems to be a milder version of case one where a specific angle will create backspin on dead balls, but in this scenario the topspin and the to be created backspin nearly even each other out creating a nearly dead ball, which upon table impact will become very light top spin.

The videos statement that a pips in rubber will somehow convert topspin to backspin (like you would expect from pips-out rubbers) without the person actually intending that is very misleading i think.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

After my game I was hungry and wanted a Big Mac & Coke to instantly satisfy my hunger. Instead of a Big Mac & Coke, I got a Gordon Ramsay type five star Michelin chef giving me a lecture on how to prepare a full gourmet French dinner.
After two days, I am still hungry + confused.

This is how I am feeling now.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

so in other words, forward action or uppish action.
this is 2 different school of teaching.
Most teaching from the east, is forward action ftw (thus low)

Note: If it is too high throw, it is easy to counter back (more time for opponent)

I'm talking from teaching and training shots.
If you watch pros, everything is based on sudden reaction, so you would have both, in fact, many of the "tough" shots are all non text book. So learning from pro play is the last thing a coach would want

I can confirm this statement in bold. My coach always tell me to close my bat angle more. So Tony, a high throw angle rubber would benefit me more? Another question, if I tend to over shoot my topspin shot, would it benefit me to choose a rubber with lower throw?

 

[Zwill]

There was this Japanese guy who did bounce and spin, and release angle comparisons with a specific rig.

He has a few comparisons between popular rubbers vs Butterfly rubbers. It's quite interesting, too bad he doesn't post any videos for a long time now.

 

[latej]

Another question, if I tend to over shoot my topspin shot, would it benefit me to choose a rubber with lower throw?

No. Choosing slower rubber, or blade, or both would help.

If I remember correctly, you used to play with H3? But then you switched to T5. Why not take H3 in H37-H39 back, or some other slower rubber? T5 is not slow enough. You should not have the feeling you need to constrain yourself.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

No. Choosing slower rubber, or blade, or both would help.

If I remember correctly, you used to play with H3? But then you switched to T5. Why not take H3 in H37-H39 back, or some other slower rubber? T5 is not slow enough. You should not have the feeling you need to constrain yourself.

i have not played with Chinese Tacky rubber for more than a year. Not going back there. I will have to unlearn a lot to go back there, not gonna happen. If you recalled in about six weeks after I took lesson with my coach, he told me to stop using chinese tacky rubber because my stroke does not match with it.

T05 was recommended by my coach recently and during stroking it was great but I suffered during match play. My ball was flying here and there. After a month of using T05, I have gone back to my old Donic Bluefire M1 ( which I had a few pcs lying around from my previous purchase) while waiting for MXP to go on sale to buy it. My old MXP sponge has deteriorated a lot, I just had to throw it away.

As for using a slower blade, not gonna happen as well as I have been using the same blade, that is, my current one ply hinoki for a year now and I do not want to unlearn and relearn a new blade. It will be such a waste of time.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

i have not played with Chinese Tacky rubber for more than a year. Not going back there. I will have to unlearn a lot to go back there, not gonna happen. If you recalled in about six weeks after I took lesson with my coach, he told me to stop using chinese tacky rubber because my stroke does not match with it.

T05 was recommended by my coach recently and during stroking it was great but I suffered during match play. My ball was flying here and there. After a month of using T05, I have gone back to my old Donic Bluefire M1 ( which I had a few pcs lying around from my previous purchase) while waiting for MXP to go on sale to buy it. My old MXP sponge has deteriorated a lot, I just had to throw it away.

You are trying to use the idea of throw angle to figure out what rubbers to use. But you are misunderstanding the principles.

If higher arc lets you land the ball safer and lower arc means you need to be much more precise, lower throw angle is not really what you want if you are missing more. What you want is a rubber that is easier for you to control regardless of throw angle. Some of what you also want is more precision in how you respond to incoming spin.

Maybe a rubber like Xiom Vega Europe or Vega Pro would be something to try out. It is pretty easy to use and control. It is a few steps down from Tenergy. But if you are having the ball fly all over the place, something that is more user friendly, does not react to incoming spin as much, and allows you to develop your strokes better.

In other words, it is not the equipment that is the issue. But that you started using equipment that was a little to advanced for the level of your technique. Back off. Use something that is one of those middle ground offensive rubbers that is easy to control.

BTW: the fact that you are using a 10mm+ One Ply Hinoki blade (really effing heavy and really effing fast and darn hard to control) with some of the hardest rubbers to control out there.....you may also think of stepping back on the blade to a thin, flexible 5 ply, all wood, Off- blade like a Nexy Spear or a Xiom Offensive S.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I guess I feel like elaborating. The blade and rubbers you have are fast fast fast. The rubbers you have are very grippy and very reactive to incoming spin. To use the rubbers, you kind of need to be quite good AT READING incoming spin and quite good at KNOWING HOW to touch the ball at an angle that will either let you use the incoming spin, or minimize the effects of incoming spin on the shot you will try and make.

In seeing the somewhat recent video of you playing vs that LP player, you are not really doing any of what would make that rubber and that blade a powerful combination. What you are doing instead is trying to hit all incoming balls really hard, while you are not quite set for them, and are therefore in a rush. Now, there is nothing wrong with this being the level you are playing at. You have made amazing improvements from the first video footage you posted to the most recent. The only reason the above information would be good for you to understand is, if what you are doing in any way resembles what I described above, you would be much better off with a setup that was notably easier for you to control.

Now, the equipment I described, when you are just banging the ball around and hitting topspin, it would not feel as sexy, as exciting or as fun to CRUSH the ball with. It would be slower. It would feel less alive. You would actually have to work harder to get the speed, but some of that harder work would need to be more precise contact.....sooooo.....TECHNIQUE. But that less sexy setup, it would actually also help you develop better technique.

At first, you may not like the setup. You may not want to use it. But, in the long run, if you use it, you will get better faster and start making the kinds of improvements that will allow you to handle varied spin, receive of serve, and some of the more complicated play styles that you are currently struggling with.

So you could think about backing the equipment off as an investment in your future development. But the changes that would help you have nothing to do with this idea that you are attaching to this term "throw angle" which BrokenBall rightly points out is not really so definable.

 

[dingyibvs]

I can confirm this statement in bold. My coach always tell me to close my bat angle more. So Tony, a high throw angle rubber would benefit me more? Another question, if I tend to over shoot my topspin shot, would it benefit me to choose a rubber with lower throw?

No, lower throw means less margin of error for topspins due to the flatter trajectory. If you like hitting hard and don't want to change your blade then you need a much slower rubber. Maybe try an unboosted H3-80 at 37 degrees, similar hardness as the T05 but much slower, lasts a long time, pretty spinny, and relatively cheap.