Sabine Winter switches to antispin

[canonFH]

I watched all her matches. The players that gave her trouble were only if they were able to block or redirect her forehand third ball attack with some consistency. I did not see many short pushes in the receive, so she basically murdered the third ball all over the table.

I think the Tibhar table helps her FH and worsens the impact of her Anti. If she can develop the short game consistency with Anti that Luka has, I see her easily in the top 20, maybe even higher.

I think every game this tournament was pretty simple strategy-wise, she basically had to get around the issue the FH dominant player faces. If you pivot, you have to go full power, otherwise the opponent kills to FH. If you go full power, you can't recover fast enough if the opponent redirects.

DHK was not fully fit imo. Otherwise, she had her beat strategy-wise.

 

[v100ev]

Actually about how many people will adjust to her Anti - this is definitely true - people will adjust, but there are two key moments that need to be reminded:
1. the ball from the anti comes very often with a lot of spin and the time you have to make a decision is not a lot as she plays with it directly on the table (so I would say it's harder to get used to and adjust to playing an anti-blocker compared to an LP chopper)
2. Sabine definitely hasn't mastered her Anti-game yet. You can see how many balls she pops up with it. There's definite room for improvement in that area - and when she starts keeping the ball even lower then it will be even harder for her opponents
2.1 - this is women's game we're talking about - they can not (except, probably Sun Yingsha) finish a low and spiny ball the same way the men do - so Sabine has more time to prepare her counter/block/whatever.

 

[zeio]

It cracks me up this came from "the free world".

Zeit für Wandel im DTTB nach Olympia (Time for change in the DTTB after the Olympics)
https://forum.tt-news.de/showthread.php?p=3668830

Klampar_Fan 09.09.2024 16:45
AW: Zeit für Wandel im DTTB nach Olympia

Auch wenn der Erfolg natürlich sehr wichtig ist, muss man sich als Verband Ziele definieren. Man kann auch ein Altersgrenze festlegen (zb 35), so das hier zB die älteren Spieler ab einem bestimmten Alter nicht mehr für die Mannschaft gesetzt sind.

Einer ja, zwei eher nicht. Denn die Meriten von gestern zählen nichts für die nächste Generation. Die Altstars müssen dann ständig mit dem Nachwuchs trainieren und ihren Beitrag für die Nachfolge leisten.

Eventuell muss man sonst bezahlte hochklsassige Trainingspartner aus dem Ausland einladen/verpflichten Die Konkurrenz unter den Spielern muss in Lehrgängen forciert werden und jüngere Spieler müssen für hochwertigere Events bevorzugt werden.

Das kann dazu führen, dass man nicht den maximalen Erfolg erzielt. Aber man kann darauf hinarbeiten, dass die Nachfolgelücke nicht zu groß wird. Sollten die "Stars" da nicht mitspielen wollen, dann muss man sie in den Ruhestand verabschieden und die Nachfolger in die Pflicht nehmen.

Die müssen aber immer das Interesse gespürt haben, das zumindest versucht wird, sie als Nachfolger aufzubauen. Besonders sollte dies für die Mannschaftswettbewerbe gelten.

Sollte der DTTB zu einem Wettbewerb Wildcards bekommen, gehen die zuerst an die jüngeren Spieler.

Die älteren Spieler können als Mentor dienen, wenn dies nicht möglich ist, muss man sich um Spieler internationaler Klasse als Sparringspartner etc bemühen.

Eventuell kann man sogar überlegen, wie man Spieler unterstützt, die es nicht schaffen, damit es danach eine perspektive für die gibt.

Ziel ist ein kontinuierlicher leistungsvergleich mit Auf- und Abstieg zwischen den Kadern.

Ich sehe keinen Trainer der dabei so viel Kredit von den Spielern bekommen kann wie Rosskopf, aber der Verband/das Team darf keine Extrawürste mehr zulassen. Kriterien sind vorab zu formulieren und auch auf "Stars" anzuwenden.

So, jetzt könnt ihr mich grillen.

Im Prinzip sind wir im TT in der Situation wie im Fußball nach jedem WM Titel. Der Erfolg hat alles zugedeckt und eine Entwicklung dort verhindert.

just my 2 cents

(While success is of course very important, the association must define its goals. An age limit can be set (e.g., 35), so that older players are no longer automatically selected for the team after a certain age.

One might be acceptable, but two are unlikely to be. Past achievements count for nothing for the next generation. The veteran stars must then constantly train with the younger players and contribute to the development of the next generation.

It might be necessary to invite or hire paid, top-class training partners from abroad. Competition among the players must be intensified in training camps, and younger players must be given preference for higher-level events.

This might mean not achieving maximum success. However, efforts can be made to ensure that the gap in the next generation doesn't become too large. If the "stars" are unwilling to participate, they must be retired, and their successors must be held accountable.

These successors must always feel that the association is at least trying to develop them as future leaders. This should be especially true for team competitions.

Should the German Table Tennis Association (DTTB) receive wildcards for a competition, these should go first to the younger players.

Older players can serve as mentors; if this isn't possible, efforts must be made to secure internationally caliber players as sparring partners, etc.

It might even be worth considering how to support players who don't make it, so that they have a future afterward.

The goal is a continuous performance comparison with promotion and relegation between the squads.

I don't see any coach who can garner as much trust from the players as Rosskopf, but the association/team can no longer allow special treatment. Criteria must be formulated in advance and applied to "stars" as well.

So, now you can grill me.

Basically, in table tennis, we're in the same situation as in football after every World Cup title. Success has overshadowed everything and stifled development.

Just my 2 cents.)

---

2023/9/26
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/19th-asian-games-hangzhou.31953/post-425065

HKG stuck with the original lineups as well (with Minnie Soo being replaced by Lam Yee Lok due to her condition), and like TPE, those are the best lineups they could've fielded at the time before the entry deadline for Asian Games 2022. Kao Cheng-Jui didn't start to shine until WTT CT Lima in August, which was too late.

Not the case for JPN and KOR at the time. Without LJH and SYB, the men's and women's teams would've been much weaker. South Korea was wise to redo the selections. At the end of the day, people don't care about fairness when you don't bring home the medals that you could have.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

rankings is a log scale. not so much difference between top 20 and top 40... as much difference between top 20 and 40 as between N1 and N2...
and you don't need to compete with Chinese to be in top20. it suffices to compete with Puerto Rico

if you think 20 and 40-50 isn't much different, then, you are in a different world

In my world, that is WR20 = 1300 rating points, WR40 = 600 rating points.
its 700 points different.

I wish 700 points is as easy as you think it is.

1300 / 8 = avg 162.5 points
600 / 8 = avg 75 points

You can check the point chart to see what positions you require to get 1300 points.

To get to 20, you need to win at least one more match in every event, and Sabine wasn't able to do it when she was in her peak / age.

We talking career highs here, and more than doubling the points she had before - in fact, at pos 16, she is tripling the points during her career high of pos 40s.
Remember, most expected her to fail.
She only wanted to go from position 56 to 50. She has gained 300% more points in the 10+ months since then

Puerto Rico

These players can get Pan Am points as a boost.
Sabine is European, and just like many Asians, won't get easy Continental points

 

[Rinforzando]

I think she still have a lot of room for improvement. She can achieve what Mladenovic can't achieve (i.e having a devastating forehand to finish everything). What she can improve is her ability with anti, and she already made a lot of progress in that department ! If she had the anti skill of Luka combined with her forehand she would definitely able to win tournaments time to time.

To the people saying her opponent will adapt. Yeah sure they might, and they will do less mistakes when receiving a shot from the anti (though I find, compared to Luka's opponents they make already a lot less mistakes). Unlike Luka (and a lot of indian girls) she doesn't rely on the anti as much as them. She still wants to finish the point with her forehand, everything else is bonuses. Adapting to her forehand ? Hard, she has one of the most powerful fh, making it tricky to deal with. In a contest of topspin vs topspin, it's hard to beat her, you can't really overpower her.

People are still underestimating anti. It's not about the mistakes they will make (this part is bonus), it's about locking up the game. If you send a high quality topspin into the anti, the ball will come back with so much spin reversal that you will be forced to push it (unlike long pips where you can do far more easily lots of topspin into it) and then Sabine can easily exploit that with her fh to take back the initiative. If you send into the anti a poor quality topspin, then she will pivot and kill it with her forehand. There are things you can and can't do against an anti and unlike many material players, Sabine can cover the weakness of the anti with her fh (receiving low quality shots (bc if you receive low quality shots, you will send back low quality shots as well with the anti, it's like a mirror))

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

She still wants to finish the point with her forehand, everything else is bonuses. Adapting to her forehand ? Hard, she has one of the most powerful fh, making it tricky to deal with. In a contest of topspin vs topspin, it's hard to beat her, you can't really overpower her.

People are still underestimating anti. It's not about the mistakes they will make (this part is bonus), it's about locking up the game. If you send a high quality topspin into the anti, the ball will come back with so much spin reversal that you will be forced to push it (unlike long pips where you can do far more easily lots of topspin into it) and then Sabine can easily exploit that with her fh to take back the initiative. If you send into the anti a poor quality topspin, then she will pivot and kill it with her forehand. There are things you can and can't do against an anti and unlike many material players, Sabine can cover the weakness of the anti with her fh (receiving low quality shots (bc if you receive low quality shots, you will send back low quality shots as well with the anti, it's like a mirror))

you said exactly what one of her coaches told me in December 2024 about her plans for 2025 and beyond.

 

[NextLevel]

It cracks me up this came from "the free world".

Zeit für Wandel im DTTB nach Olympia (Time for change in the DTTB after the Olympics)
https://forum.tt-news.de/showthread.php?p=3668830

(While success is of course very important, the association must define its goals. An age limit can be set (e.g., 35), so that older players are no longer automatically selected for the team after a certain age.

One might be acceptable, but two are unlikely to be. Past achievements count for nothing for the next generation. The veteran stars must then constantly train with the younger players and contribute to the development of the next generation.

It might be necessary to invite or hire paid, top-class training partners from abroad. Competition among the players must be intensified in training camps, and younger players must be given preference for higher-level events.

This might mean not achieving maximum success. However, efforts can be made to ensure that the gap in the next generation doesn't become too large. If the "stars" are unwilling to participate, they must be retired, and their successors must be held accountable.

These successors must always feel that the association is at least trying to develop them as future leaders. This should be especially true for team competitions.

Should the German Table Tennis Association (DTTB) receive wildcards for a competition, these should go first to the younger players.

Older players can serve as mentors; if this isn't possible, efforts must be made to secure internationally caliber players as sparring partners, etc.

It might even be worth considering how to support players who don't make it, so that they have a future afterward.

The goal is a continuous performance comparison with promotion and relegation between the squads.

I don't see any coach who can garner as much trust from the players as Rosskopf, but the association/team can no longer allow special treatment. Criteria must be formulated in advance and applied to "stars" as well.

So, now you can grill me.

Basically, in table tennis, we're in the same situation as in football after every World Cup title. Success has overshadowed everything and stifled development.

Just my 2 cents.)

---

2023/9/26
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/19th-asian-games-hangzhou.31953/post-425065

You fundamentally lack the integrity to remember all the counterexamples to your claims in order to make arguments out of context. Did Xiaona Shan fail to make the Olympics for Germany because she was too old? Would Han Ying have failed to make the Olympics because of age?

Germany is usually pretty ruthless because the government funds sports based on medal success. But have they ever claimed that age is more important than high level performance?

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

if you think 20 and 40-50 isn't much different, then, you are in a different world

In my world, that is WR20 = 1300 rating points, WR40 = 600 rating points.
its 700 points different.

I wish 700 points is as easy as you think it is.

1300 / 8 = avg 162.5 points
600 / 8 = avg 75 points

You can check the point chart to see what positions you require to get 1300 points.

To get to 20, you need to win at least one more match in every event, and Sabine wasn't able to do it when she was in her peak / age.

We talking career highs here, and more than doubling the points she had before - in fact, at pos 16, she is tripling the points during her career high of pos 40s.
Remember, most expected her to fail.
She only wanted to go from position 56 to 50. She has gained 300% more points in the 10+ months since then


These players can get Pan Am points as a boost.
Sabine is European, and just like many Asians, won't get easy Continental points

you are reading wrong my friend. Im saying ranking is a log(2) scale basically
champion wins all matches, then N2 is finalist 3-4 are semi finalists N5-8 QF etc...

so N17-32 are in the same bracket.
33-64 in the same kind bracket

basically only 1 bracket difference between 40 and 20, as much as from 4 to 8 or 2 to 4.
of course 1 bracket is a lot already, but its not like 2 or 3 or 4...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

you are reading wrong my friend. Im saying ranking is a log(2) scale basically
champion wins all matches, then N2 is finalist 3-4 are semi finalists N5-8 QF etc...

so N17-32 are in the same bracket.
33-64 in the same kind bracket

basically only 1 bracket difference between 40 and 20, as much as from 4 to 8 or 2 to 4.
of course 1 bracket is a lot already, but its not like 2 or 3 or 4...

I'm not sure where you have the idea of reading it like that. Since world ranking is not based on one event, and different events carry different weights/points.

we read based on ranking point differences.
I suggest you go to world ranking on ITTF website, and see the points, and you can do your "new" grouping from there.

ie. we need to get into WR100, to achieve lowest tier funding.
one tier up is 80
one tier up is 60
then 40

and you can see there different ranking points and we set that as goals and its all about maths - how many points you need from the events you will plan for 2026.

Once you look at these points long enough, you will have a different view on your brackets, which is the real brackets today to differentiate world ranking.

pos 10, 2500-3000
pos 20, 1200-1400
pos 30, 800
pos 40, 600
pos 60, 400
pos 80, 300
pos 100, 250

60 to 100 is one bracket, since it is 1 event different.
meaning, you can be 100 and do well in one event, and you become a 60 and vice versa.
then every 20 is its own bracket where you need 2 events differences.
into pos 10, then that is a totally different ball game.

 

[driversbeat]

You fundamentally lack the integrity to remember all the counterexamples to your claims in order to make arguments out of context. Did Xiaona Shan fail to make the Olympics for Germany because she was too old? Would Han Ying have failed to make the Olympics because of age?

Germany is usually pretty ruthless because the government funds sports based on medal success. But have they ever claimed that age is more important than high level performance?

+Timo being chosen over Franziska

 

[NextLevel]

+Timo being chosen over Franziska

We know what his agenda was for posting that, it is clearly irrelevant to the discussion here, but he cannot help himself.

 

[Bran]

60 to 100 is one bracket, since it is 1 event different.
meaning, you can be 100 and do well in one event, and you become a 60 and vice versa.
then every 20 is its own bracket where you need 2 events differences.

Takkyu's rule of thumb is decent and not completely at odds with what you describe. It also links nicely and intuitively to how tournament rounds work, on powers of 2. Given points attributions are also roughly by powers of 2 (from finalist to round of 16), it means that the reasoning should broadly transpose.

Montpellier points attributions:

Winner​	1000​
Finalist​	700​
Semis​	350​
Quarters​	175​
Round of 16​	90​
Round of 32​	15​

The men's top 100 log ranking points is visually about linear until ~16 after which it becomes much steeper.

Women's a bit less log-linear but it remains a reasonable approximation.

 

[Metaxa]

I think she still have a lot of room for improvement. She can achieve what Mladenovic can't achieve (i.e having a devastating forehand to finish everything). What she can improve is her ability with anti, and she already made a lot of progress in that department ! If she had the anti skill of Luka combined with her forehand she would definitely able to win tournaments time to time.

To the people saying her opponent will adapt. Yeah sure they might, and they will do less mistakes when receiving a shot from the anti (though I find, compared to Luka's opponents they make already a lot less mistakes). Unlike Luka (and a lot of indian girls) she doesn't rely on the anti as much as them. She still wants to finish the point with her forehand, everything else is bonuses. Adapting to her forehand ? Hard, she has one of the most powerful fh, making it tricky to deal with. In a contest of topspin vs topspin, it's hard to beat her, you can't really overpower her.

People are still underestimating anti. It's not about the mistakes they will make (this part is bonus), it's about locking up the game. If you send a high quality topspin into the anti, the ball will come back with so much spin reversal that you will be forced to push it (unlike long pips where you can do far more easily lots of topspin into it) and then Sabine can easily exploit that with her fh to take back the initiative. If you send into the anti a poor quality topspin, then she will pivot and kill it with her forehand. There are things you can and can't do against an anti and unlike many material players, Sabine can cover the weakness of the anti with her fh (receiving low quality shots (bc if you receive low quality shots, you will send back low quality shots as well with the anti, it's like a mirror))

The difference between Sabine and Luka is that Sabine learned to play table tennis before her move, while Luka is a better ping pong player.
Something to think about.

 

[NextLevel]

The difference between Sabine and Luka is that Sabine learned to play table tennis before her move, while Luka is a better ping pong player.
Something to think about.

Your campaign against material never ends, does it?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Here is some easier explanation on world ranking

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

 

[Metaxa]

Your campaign against material never ends, does it?

Well, if they give you a cross, you have to head it in, don't you?🤷‍♂️

 

[Metaxa]

Here is some easier explanation on world ranking

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

It's true and not only for top 100 in the world but on all levels.

 

[Bran]

Here is some easier explanation on world ranking

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Schlager's take on level gap aligns with the ranking points curve, meaning the point system works as designed – regardless of its pros and cons as a race system vs the old Elo.

Long story short: the gap increases exponentially as you reach the top, in both the qualitative and mathematical sense.

 

[zeio]

You fundamentally lack the integrity to remember all the counterexamples to your claims in order to make arguments out of context. Did Xiaona Shan fail to make the Olympics for Germany because she was too old? Would Han Ying have failed to make the Olympics because of age?

Germany is usually pretty ruthless because the government funds sports based on medal success. But have they ever claimed that age is more important than high level performance?

Dementia again? Like before, please come up with a better argument.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...sh-sweden-august-14-24-2025.35820/post-537182

 

[zeio]

+Timo being chosen over Franziska

Oh, please. You're comparing Boll who has a proven track record in MT in contrast to MS. Read that TT-News thread. The members are calling for a change of policy of using washed-up players after Paris 2024. Winter would be the oldest German player in recent times to play her first Olympics, older than those former CNT players after the mandatory "cool-down" period.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wtt-singapore-smash-2024-3-7-3-17.33147/post-447975