Serves

[Shine]

For the "he serves over the table proponents", take a look at this.

 

[zeio]

Discrimination based on camera angle...

 

[NextLevel]

For the "he serves over the table proponents", take a look at this.

Yeah, people serve exactly the same way every time so all you have to do is look at one serve and there is nothing left to discuss. Genius I tell you....

 

[Lazer]

For the "he serves over the table proponents", take a look at this.

You mean that his throwing arm is partly over the table???
This is allowed as far as I know, the ball is still behind the table at all times...

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Tyce]

So if he can serve legal, why doesn't he just do it in matches, too?

 

[zeio]

You mean that his throwing arm is partly over the table???
This is allowed as far as I know, the ball is still behind the table at all times...

Cheers
L-zr

No, the side camera angle in WTT events makes it appear WCQ serves within the end line over the table, mostly due to optical distortions commonly seen with wide angle lens.

Note how the yellow line at the top of the outer barrier curves up on either end.

 

[Lazer]

No, the side camera angle in WTT events makes it appear WCQ serves within the end line over the table, mostly due to optical distortions commonly seen with wide angle lens.

That's not what I am seeing, The ball is always outside, the only part that is not. is his arm which is resting against the table, but hand and ball is outside. The hand is then moving upwards and I can not see that it is moving in over the table. So to me it looks perfectly legal.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Shine]

So if he can serve legal, why doesn't he just do it in matches, too?

Maybe you don't think he can serve legally, and that's why you assume his serves are illegal?
His serves are way better now than it was 2 years ago in terms of legality.

 

[Shine]

Yeah, people serve exactly the same way every time so all you have to do is look at one serve and there is nothing left to discuss. Genius I tell you....

First, I think his serves has evolved in the past year since criticisms reached a head. He's done away with the hook serve, the toss is clear, and the point of contact can be better visualised now.

Secondly, I think this angle, the angle in the serve against Felix and TTR reviews of his serves over the past year when he's been challenged has done justice to prove that he serves clean a lot of the time. I can't vouch for 100% of the time , but I know for sure that the players you bring up as epitomes of clean serves have been faulted by TTR and the refs recently on one or 2 occasions, so what's the big deal about what they're doing?

 

[zeio]

Playing versus WCT at WTTC 2025, WCQ was warned about the toss within end line at 6:3 of G2, then was faulted at 7:6 of G3 but challenged the call successfully.

LIVE! | T1 | Day 4 | ITTF World Table Tennis Championships Finals Doha 2025 | Session 2
https://youtu.be/Zj0Q1fD5utc?t=7120
https://youtu.be/Zj0Q1fD5utc?t=8068

 

[NextLevel]

First, I think his serves has evolved in the past year since criticisms reached a head. He's done away with the hook serve, the toss is clear, and the point of contact can be better visualised now.

Secondly, I think this angle, the angle in the serve against Felix and TTR reviews of his serves over the past year when he's been challenged has done justice to prove that he serves clean a lot of the time. I can't vouch for 100% of the time , but I know for sure that the players you bring up as epitomes of clean serves have been faulted by TTR and the refs recently on one or 2 occasions, so what's the big deal about what they're doing?

A few comments:

Some of the TTR reviews of his serves that were approved as clean were extremely dubious and I would argue that the TTR review got the call wrong but if we are to stick to the standard of passing the rule, then you are on decent ground. Thankfully we can see the video reviewed to make the call and see that TTR had work to do on assessing some of these calls. At least Bobrow felt the same way so it isn't all in my head.

The other point is that in the modern rules, just about everyone serves faults, it all depends on what is being looked at. While faults are faults regardless of criteria, almost none of the people I said have clean serves (Truls for example) will ever get called for ball hiding. Toss verticality is an issue harder to control the further away you toss the ball from your body but it is clear Truls is working on it. Other than Truls, I am wondering who else you have in mind. Would love to hear who.

Finally, the problem with borderline serving isn't what happens on most serves. The problem with borderline serving is what happens on critical points after a rhythm has been established because umpires usually don't make calls on critical points. You never know when the line is crossed unless you review all the serves.Since there was no TTR in Bhubaneswar as far as I know, most of this is moot.

I have no doubt Wang is serving legally most of the time. But the problem is that it is hard to tell when he is serving illegally especially when TTR is absent. And it is not like he *never* gets warned. But this is not just true for him, it is true for many players. Its one of the reasons I am sometimes not fully on board the Ma Long is GOAT bandwagon.

 

[NextLevel]

Playing versus WCT at WTTC 2025, WCQ was warned about the toss within end line at 6:3 of G2, then was faulted at 7:6 of G3 but challenged the call successfully.

LIVE! | T1 | Day 4 | ITTF World Table Tennis Championships Finals Doha 2025 | Session 2
https://youtu.be/Zj0Q1fD5utc?t=7120
https://youtu.be/Zj0Q1fD5utc?t=8068

One of the annoying things about TTR is that only one thing gets reviewed whenever a serve is challenged. The ball goes clearly behind his head but that is not under review.

 

[Angerer]

So if he can serve legal, why doesn't he just do it in matches, too?

It was an official match between national teams of Japan and China.
C'mon, I've been a long-time hater of Wang's serves, mostly due to head-hiding and serving over the table. But TTR showed numerous times his serves are far more legal than the of most players' in top100, and he has only been penalized once after a video review.
His serves are ok, end of the story.

 

[Shine]

One of the annoying things about TTR is that only one thing gets reviewed whenever a serve is challenged. The ball goes clearly behind his head but that is not under review.

View attachment 38540

I think it's close, but from this angle, it looks more like the ball contacts his bat at chest height, his bat is below his neck not above it.
I'd prefer a camera angle from WCT's view - that should be more objective. The camera from the side certainly doesn't look like it's behind his head too. Hey who knows we'd probably need 18 angles to be sure.

 

[NextLevel]

I think it's close, but from this angle, it looks more like the ball contacts his bat at chest height, his bat is below his neck not above it.
I'd prefer a camera angle from WCT's view - that should be more objective. The camera from the side certainly doesn't look like it's behind his head too. Hey who knows we'd probably need 18 angles to be sure.

The rule is that the ball should be visible throughout the toss. Keep that on mind when making any arguments. Blatantly legal and visible serves are visible to both net posts and do not require the receiver to move to view contact.

 

[NextLevel]

It was an official match between national teams of Japan and China.
C'mon, I've been a long-time hater of Wang's serves, mostly due to head-hiding and serving over the table. But TTR showed numerous times his serves are far more legal than the of most players' in top100, and he has only been penalized once after a video review.
His serves are ok, end of the story.

No they arent, the best argument you have made is that many players use illegal serves and he isnt necessarily worse than others. But as I have pointed out, many people can review how TTR has been applied fo Wang when it approves him and see that in many of them the ball was plainly behind the body and the camera angle used to make the ruling was suspicious. If TTR is going to be used to evaluate every serve and we can get more players to practice with it. Then I am okay with that. But whar currently obtains is not correct to anyone who understands the rules. Camera angle still plays too much of a role in whether your serve is considered visible or not rather than enforcing the rule as stated plainly about visibility throughout the toss, ideally to the net posts.

 

[Shine]

The rule is that the ball should be visible throughout the toss. Keep that on mind when making any arguments. Blatantly legal and visible serves are visible to both net posts and do not require the receiver to move to view contact.

You take a still of the action from an obtuse angle behind him at the point of contact with the bat upside down imparting spin to the ball and expect the ball to be visible? The ball is only gonna be visible if he's holding the bat flat.
The ball should be visible to the opponent and to the umpires, that's paramount. Is the angle you're taking this picture from the view of any of these characters?

 

[NextLevel]

You take a still of the ball from an angle behind him at the point of contact and expect it to be visible? The rule is the ball should be visible to the receiver and the refs on the side I guess. Is this frame a picture from the net post?

The ball being behind the player (as opposed to besides the player) means the receiver will have to move to see it throughout the toss. Serves that depend on where the receiver is standing for visibility are considered hidden serves. Logic and geometry do play a role in understanding the argument but it is okay to not use it to analyze the situation.

 

[joshmak10]

My opinion on this is that WCQ has improved the legality on his serve a lot, especially since TTR. I don’t see him often serving his (very illegal) hook serve anymore, as most of the CNT doing hook serves do it blatantly illegal (LSD and XP are two that I can recall getting faulted by TTR). But I do want to say that I feel like WCQ gets too much hate for his serves just because of the past when there WASNT any TTR. But now that there is, he seems to have changed it for the better and TTR proves than in the vast majority of the time he serves legally. While of course TTR can be wrong sometimes, I think that there are way more obviously guilty parties of illegal serves (Sora’s pendulum , Faraji’s hook, LSD hook, Alexis low toss pendulum) and I don’t feel they get called out nearly as often as WCQ.

Bottom line is, he has served illegal in the past, but has improved significantly since, and he shouldn’t be the sole target of illegal serves

 

[NextLevel]

My opinion on this is that WCQ has improved the legality on his serve a lot, especially since TTR. I don’t see him often serving his (very illegal) hook serve anymore, as most of the CNT doing hook serves do it blatantly illegal (LSD and XP are two that I can recall getting faulted by TTR). But I do want to say that I feel like WCQ gets too much hate for his serves just because of the past when there WASNT any TTR. But now that there is, he seems to have changed it for the better and TTR proves than in the vast majority of the time he serves legally. While of course TTR can be wrong sometimes, I think that there are way more obviously guilty parties of illegal serves (Sora’s pendulum , Faraji’s hook, LSD hook, Alexis low toss pendulum) and I don’t feel they get called out nearly as often as WCQ.

Bottom line is, he has served illegal in the past, but has improved significantly since, and he shouldn’t be the sole target of illegal serves

No doubt, and if the argument is that everyone serves illegally so why can't he, I am totally on board for that within reason. But the idea that he is some paragon of legality is simply not true. Neither was Ma Long, but that is for another time. In general, the side-on pendulum is what it is. Sora I believe is especially bad and Felix's serving can be dodgy as well.

Here is the one I Was looking for vs Darko - this is one of the serves that was ruled ball not hidden that people are using to say he serves legally. Some of you are just funny.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tabletennis/comments/1ml8ady

Here is an example of the serve in doubles and it is exactly what I mean when I Say that if you aren't using TTR on every single point, you can't tell how often the ball disappears behind the body - but *most* of his pendulum serves are like this, and sometimes depending on the camera angle TTR films from, he can even get this called legal as in the previous video..

82K views · 909 reactions | World no.1 Wang Chuqin calls for TTR! 👀🏓 Wang Chuqin asked for TTR on his serve during his mixed doubles match with Sun Yingsha at China Smash! 📺 | TableTennisDaily

World no.1 Wang Chuqin calls for TTR! 👀🏓 Wang Chuqin asked for TTR on his serve during his mixed doubles match with Sun Yingsha at China Smash! 📺

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Another fault call vs, REdzminski:

114K views · 781 reactions | TTR call by Wang Chuqin 🤔 Best Table Tennis Points of Last Decade (2015–2024): https://youtu.be/sL8UahwyBC8 #wangchuqin #miloszredzimski #wtt #tabletennis #pingpong #sports #spinrally | Spin Rally

TTR call by Wang Chuqin 🤔 Best Table Tennis Points of Last Decade (2015–2024): https://youtu.be/sL8UahwyBC8 #wangchuqin #miloszredzimski #wtt #tabletennis #pingpong #sports #spinrally

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Here is another example in the CSL in 2020 where the ball is clearly behind his head but he passes because the challenge was on verticality:

I don't doubt that serving over the table is usually an optical illusion but that also makes it easier for the serve to be hidden during the motion to recover. As Lind has pointed out, WCQ is not an exception and at the pro level, hidden serves are not enough, you need significant variety and deception even with the hiding as pros have a lot spin sense. Give the man his kudos, but let him do his own image laundering and let's stop pretending his serves are some model for legality.