Shuki Development and Questions

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You always have 'your event' - the lowest one you qualify for, just to clarify the suggestion. Beyond that - ratings have volatility/uncertainty associated with them: you might be over 1700 today, but might not be after your next tournament. I'm just pointing out that you did not actually win U1700, so how does it follow that you should have played U2100 instead?

I'm mostly saying all of this because most folks (myself included) tend to overestimate our own level, which can lead to "Since I think I am ~1900 I don't need to play U1700, I should play U2100" approach. Not pointing fingers here - I had similar thoughts myself, and these days I actually prefer to play both, perhaps to the detriment of my overall performance.

so i should have started with the u1100 and u1300? since thats what I qualified for? Even though higher rated games felt easy
 
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so i should have started with the u1100 and u1300? since thats what I qualified for? Even though higher rated games felt easy

You can do whatever the heck you want - perhaps you should only play Open events from now on. I just pointed out (for the last time, I promise) that your idea that you should've played U2100 instead of U1700 is a bit misguided, since you did not manage to win the damn U1700 event in the first place.

Good luck in your future TT adventures.
 
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You can do whatever the heck you want - perhaps you should only play Open events from now on. I just pointed out (for the last time, I promise) that your idea that you should've played U2100 instead of U1700 is a bit misguided, since you did not manage to win the damn U1700 event in the first place.

Good luck in your future TT adventures.

I wanted to play a wide range of player's levels for my first tournament. This would tell me where I stand. The U1700 felt the same as the U1900.

most 1800 players would rather play the next level up instead of the U1900. there was not a single player over 1800 in the U1900, they were all chilling in the U2100 in fear of losing points. I'm not saying I'm that level, I just wanted to experience better players as well as the player's I dealt with. Dropping the U1700 and replacing it with the U2100 would achieve this. I could just as much drop the U1900 instead of the U1700 and feel the same effect.
 
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It is interesting. I think what pgpg is saying is pretty good info. When someone wants their rating to go higher faster they might play brackets too high for their level. You don't lose points and if you do steal a match from someone higher your rating jumps big time.

But, if you are interested in growing into a certain level for real, winning your way up from the lowest bracket you can enter and one level up from that seems the best way to provide you with real and honest feedback about your actual development.

I like the approach pgpg is presenting. And I would way rather be underrated and climb as I get there than be overrated and have a rollercoaster rating because I am playing over my head.


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It is interesting. I think what pgpg is saying is pretty good info. When someone wants their rating to go higher faster they might play brackets too high for their level. You don't lose points and if you do steal a match from someone higher your rating jumps big time.

But, if you are interested in growing into a certain level for real, winning your way up from the lowest bracket you can enter and one level up from that seems the best way to provide you with real and honest feedback about your actual development.

I like the approach pgpg is presenting. And I would way rather be underrated and climb as I get there than be overrated and have a rollercoaster rating because I am playing over my head.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Dunno about this, as a player who comes from an area where there's one tournament a year within an 6 hour drive, only competing in the lowest event possible would be a waste of time and money. What if I were to win the 1700 and have not entered anything harder.

then there would be a situation of "Well there was that one event per year, I still don't know where I stand since I won my event with ease. man I can't wait until next year to do another event.
 
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you learn what to improve on by playing against better players
you don't learn much in games with even matchups; they are fun though

So what's your basis for saying this? I haven't heard any good player say this - every good player I have read on this topic stresses the importance of getting better by dominating (former) peers and worse players.
 
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Dunno about this, as a player who comes from an area where there's one tournament a year within an 6 hour drive, only competing in the lowest event possible would be a waste of time and money. What if I were to win the 1700 and have not entered anything harder.

then there would be a situation of "Well there was that one event per year, I still don't know where I stand since I won my event with ease. man I can't wait until next year to do another event.

Being in a TT starved area leads to statements like these. I get it. And everyone plays TT for a different reason.

Ratings lead people to make all kinds of decisions. One of my favorite articles is this one by Larry Hodges - it applies to adult amateurs as much as juniors, though the focus is on juniors.

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/65

IMO, the only time you should consider avoiding your own event is when you get good enough to be consistently a money player and you don't want to play events where there is no money whatsoever. Some tournaments set the money bar at 1800, some at 2000, some at 2200.

But I get where you are coming from - no one wants to play only one event and have that event be one where they do not feel challenged. But pgpg's point that you did not win your event is very important as well, because you don't want to be one of those people who is scared of losing rating points. In fact, learning to dominate lower rated players is part of getting better at TT. It closes gaps in your TT understanding.

Those players who duck their events have usually never won anything. When I first played, I Was rated 500 or thereabouts - I lost to everyone except the club owner's wife, who was rated about 300 or so. I wasn't training or anything and I was probably better than that rating but had no understanding of spin etc. I didn't have a job then so I waited until I had one to get into training. I started training 3 months later and then played my first tournament about 4-5 months after training. I won the U1000 at FIT in NY and the U800, U1000, U1200, and U1400 at NJTTC. I only came out about 1150 or so then I went to the NA teams and came out close to 1400. I had all kinds of rating anxiety though because initially, I had nothing to defend and when I finally had a rating close to that of my opponents, I often played like an idiot when things got tight against a lower rated player. My understanding of my game was too limited to put my play in perspective. As a coach of adults these days, I struggle to get them to understand how meaningless ratings are at their level and the true value of tournaments.

MY current coach saw me working with my former coach in March and felt that I was putting in too much effort to progress slowly so he told me that if I worked with him, even as I was 1400 or so at that time, and regressing to 1300 in my head, that I could be 1800 by the end of the year in 2012. So I ultimately switched coaches. IT was a bit taxing but I was in the 1700s by November.

But breaking the 1800 barrier was a hurdle for me because I had some bad habits on serve return and liked to block, so I passed up third ball opportunities. Playing against juniors trained to serve deceptive sidespin and kill the return, this put too much strain on my hitting and blocking game. I got as high as 1790 but fell back into the high 1600s and kept thinking all this stuff was really meaningful. But things came to a head for me when I lost to an older guy 0-11 in the 3rd - he limped and mostly lobbed and chopped. My junior practice partners who I was initially better than were leaving me behind. They and my coach talked to me about my general approach to the game. That was when I started taking the spin over pace approach seriously as a developmental tool. I broke 1900 twice that year in 2013 after making that fix.

I still had a lot of volatility in my results even into the next year. But the big day that changed every thing was when I was 1749/1750 and had to go play at NJTTC who had an U1750 tournament with a cash prize. I had already barely broke 1900 twice at this point the previous year as I Said. So my coach said I should win it all if I play the 1750. I was still wondering why I should be putting my ratings points at risk because I still didn't get it. But I went in and played it. I only had one tough match (the final) and it was against the second seed who was 1732. And tough is matter of perspective - he won the games he won at deuce (13-11 both times) while I beat him at 2, 2, and 8. That was the beginning of my fully appreciating that players play matches, not ratings, and you learn a lot at our level by beating any kind of player in the proper way.

Ever since then, I have played many events as the #1 seed or the unknown #1 seed (maybe I had won tons of points from a tournament that hadn't been entered yet so people did not always know my true level) and won them or lost to someone who outplayed me. When I have played event as the #1 seed, or favorite of sorts, I have often played players in the final who have never played an event final before or have never won anything. Those tend to be the easiest matches as my level of play combined with their nervousness makes the match very easy (usually 3-0 massacres). But the lack of experience playing finals is extremely common with people who never play their own events as favorites!

In 2014, I had my last major upsets - ever since I improved my serve and forehand game in 2015, upsets have been largely a thing of the past and the players I lose to now are players who are playing at a strong level within a 100 points of myself at least. Every "bad loss" I had in 2015 except 1 where I was tired and should either have eaten or not have played, the player got an adjustment from beating many good players or gained points a month after. I tell people all the time that losing is a possibility when playing good players (i.e. anyone over 1600) so you have to play properly once someone is above that level. You learn that when you don't duck such players. After all, pgpg himself had match point on me at Westchester.

I tell people - I am USATT 2000 against all playing styles - topspin, dead ball, pips, chopper etc. I have beaten 2000 players of all styles at that level. I did so by playing them and never avoiding them. No one walks up to the table against me with a different style and wins just because of that. They have to be good players who do something that puts pressure on me. And such losses are inevitable as you can't be everything in TT. You can't solve the problem of losing, but you can solve the problem of improvement.

OF course, the rule of playing your own event is not immutable - there can be good reason like scheduling or ridiculously large improvement or just boredom to consider it (for example, there is a tournament where people groan when they see me rated under 2000 that I don't play any more since I play league at the club and people think I am a sand bagger). But avoiding your own event tends to reveal a destructive mindset which I try very hard to talk people out early. I remember going once to an event with a chopper - we were #2 and #3 seed or something like that. Someone casually told both of us that it was hard to win an event as the top seed given all the improving players. I told the person that this was BS and I had done it many times and it is something losers tell themselves. To prove my point, semi-finalists were the #1, #2, #3 and #5 seeds. #1 beat #3 (me) and #5 beat #2, and #1 beat #5. Who would have thought that given the crap the guy was casually telling us?

There is nothing wrong with losing to anyone that outplays you. Once you accept that, then the obsession with ratings becomes far less and the key is competing to have fun and win.
 
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I was excited because I got to play new players. This is what I love most about table tennis, is playing a player I've never played before, I just like to have fun. I enjoy the feeling of diagnosing my opponents game and just hitting the ball too much. I was like a kid on christmas filled with excitement.

Your attitude sounds great. If you can play one event, play whatever event you want based on your reasons for doing so. I have explained why I tell people to play their own event. If you can only play once a year, that obviously is a bit much. But most people who do what you do play the whole weekend and plan to stay overnight etc. I can't drive 1 hour to play 1 event and driving 6 hours to do the same is madness to me unless I am 2200+ (where the energy consumed is critical) or in a giant round robin.
 
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So what's your basis for saying this? I haven't heard any good player say this - every good player I have read on this topic stresses the importance of getting better by dominating (former) peers and worse players.

my coach told me and its kinda common sense
if you are struggling with other players that are better than you its because you are not as good as them in some aspects and this can help you find whats your issues are. (you find out why you are losing more points than winning them)
like maybe you overcommit a lot and always don't really get back in position or you can counterhit aggressively on heavy topspin balls
 
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Dunno about this, as a player who comes from an area where there's one tournament a year within an 6 hour drive, only competing in the lowest event possible would be a waste of time and money. What if I were to win the 1700 and have not entered anything harder.

then there would be a situation of "Well there was that one event per year, I still don't know where I stand since I won my event with ease. man I can't wait until next year to do another event.

Please read this again:

But, if you are interested in growing into a certain level for real, winning your way up from the lowest bracket you can enter and one level up....

Perhaps it isn't clear enough! Perhaps you didn't read it properly.

What that says is:

1) You enter the lowest bracket your rating allows

and

2) One bracket higher.

I've got to be honest. One bracket higher is usually enough higher to give you some good azz whippin's.

Are you thinking you should have entered the U2450?

Entering 1) the lowest bracket you can, and 2) one bracket higher, like U1750 & U1950 gives you the best option for more meaningful matches.

And the idea that you only learn from playing guys way above your level--and yes, 2 levels up is way above level, and 3 levels up is way, way above level--thinking you only learn from playing way above level is a bit foolish.

You can learn from playing vs any level, better or worse. You will learn different things. But it is possible to play against someone enough higher than you that you learn nothing because they beat you so easily that it's over before you realize anything aside from the fact that you couldn't handle any of what they threw at you and you played like a fish out of water. Or, that you were so easy for them that they didn't even have to try.

Everyone can do things there own way. But I think pgpg made a lot of sense.
 
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Please read this again:
But it is possible to play against someone enough higher than you that you learn nothing because they beat you so easily that it's over before you realize anything aside from the fact that you couldn't handle any of what they threw at you and you played like a fish out of water. Or, that you were so easy for them that they didn't even have to try.
yea that is very true!
However...
playing against someone at a way higher level and getting smashed reaffirms that your skills are just not good enough (maybe it might not pinpoint some specific weakness but it can tell you that maybe your basics are not as good as theirs)
its fine if you want to decide to play at against players at a higher level; maybe you realise you can compete with them or maybe your not good enough and you learn that you would need to train more
but whatever it is no experience is a wasted one :)

Have fun with tt!!
 
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deleted post: just read everyones posts more thoroughly. Was pretty tired last night after not sleeping the night before and don't think I was thinking things through very well when replying to posts myself.
 
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I think you are missing the key point here, table tennis is not just about turning up and putting just your skills to the test.

Its very easy to play your best against players that are higher , especially that are going to let you return their serves.

The point is its also mental game and when you play your peers or players just a level higher you get to find out whether your mental game is at the same level as your skills or atleast catching up.

Most of the people who take serious coaching have skill sets that are level or two higher than their actual level but to progress you have to progress in all areas of the game not just skill but also mentally .

And there is always the conundrum of returning serves against players who have good serves, most people who are more than two level highers won't even try hard to beat you and then you don't even know how your game is because they are not playing their actual level.

But anyways, this is again a lesson that is best learnt on your own and that is the reason I chose not to argue with Shuki...

I know Carl really tries to help people and he is successful at times even when I have lost hope e.g with Archo, but I just don't have the time and energy to keep trying to convince people who are not appreciative of the free good advise they are getting here and its mostly the case everywhere else as well .... they will learn it eventually ... as NextLevel likes to point out , we have been there , done that and learnt on our own and just passing on our life's lessons , believe me the learning arc in table tennis is not that different from people to people .... sometimes its just best left that way .... I would rather say ... take it or leave it ... :)

yea that is very true!
However...
playing against someone at a way higher level and getting smashed reaffirms that your skills are just not good enough (maybe it might not pinpoint some specific weakness but it can tell you that maybe your basics are not as good as theirs)
its fine if you want to decide to play at against players at a higher level; maybe you realise you can compete with them or maybe your not good enough and you learn that you would need to train more
but whatever it is no experience is a wasted one :)

Have fun with tt!!
 
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I know Carl really tries to help people and he is successful at times even when I have lost hope e.g with Archo, but I just don't have the time and energy to keep trying to convince people who are not appreciative of the free good advise they are getting here and its mostly the case everywhere else as well .... they will learn it eventually ... as NextLevel likes to point out , we have been there , done that and learnt on our own and just passing on our life's lessons , believe me the learning arc in table tennis is not that different from people to people .... sometimes its just best left that way .... I would rather say ... take it or leave it ... :)
no that is what i'm trying to say -.-ll hahaha
you don't have to spend more time and effort to tell them your experiences if ppl are not going to take it into account
sometimes it is best for ppl to experience it themselves and maybe you could be right or you could be wrong (no experience is the same and i dont know if you have seen him play or not)
that is why I said no experience is a wasted one!

p.s. if you are right you can say "I told you sooooooo!!! oihhfoahfodis" hahahaa
 
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Your attitude sounds great. If you can play one event, play whatever event you want based on your reasons for doing so. I have explained why I tell people to play their own event. If you can only play once a year, that obviously is a bit much. But most people who do what you do play the whole weekend and plan to stay overnight etc. I can't drive 1 hour to play 1 event and driving 6 hours to do the same is madness to me unless I am 2200+ (where the energy consumed is critical) or in a giant round robin.

Attitude being great is wrong. Danny Seemiller Senior came to our tournament and watched a few of my games. He had told me that I have improved quite a bit since his clinic but don't have the attitude to win in a competitive atmosphere. I believe his words were literally "you need to learn to stop toying with your food".

But doing this is quite hard for me when the winning isn't the most fun part of the game for me. Sure winning is nice, but if my opponent isn't having fun too, I'm not going to have as much fun.

Jr. also talked to me about it saying, you can be friendly but in a game, don't consider them your friends.

Just not my mentality I guess, I don't have the competitive drive, my attitude for table tennis is wrong. But hey, I'm not playing to become a professional player. Then again if I changed my attitude I'd probably improve quicker, and that IS something I strive for.
 
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Great info and story from NextLevel. Excellent comment from ttmonster. Solid comment from darnner. Lots to learn.

I obviously play guys a lot higher than me, a lot lower than me and my level.

When you play someone higher level the pressure is very different. If they win, it was to be expected. You can play lose with very little pressure. If you can pull off a good upset, it is a nice confidence booster. So, there is value to that.

Sometimes when you play guys lower level, your head goes out the window because you should win easily and if you don't win easily or if you lose it can be a lot more stress than playing someone your level or higher. Learning to stay focused and control those matches is a valuable learning experience that can help solidify your level. Like how NextLevel talked about how, after a certain point he stopped losing those matches that he really should win.

Playing people at your level is really valuable too. As your level goes up, your rating will follow. So as your level outgrows a bracket, what will happen is, you will win the finals of that level but you will also win enough matches in the next bracket up that your rating will jump past the old level to make the next level up the one that is your event. And then, at a certain point you win that one and so on.

Playing someone where it is a dogfight, the match goes to 5 or whatever the full distance is, and many of the games, and the match as well, are determined by critical decisions at crunch time of each game and who is able to come through in the clutch. THERE IS A HUGE AMOUNT to learn from that kind of match. And, win or lose, you want to have as many of those as possible.


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My training partner was talking to me about he too didn't feel challenged. He won both his events, U1900 and U1700. Felt he wasted his time and didn't learn anything. At least my experience didn't feel like a waste of time :)

The highlight of the night wasn't in any of my games, but watching the semi-finals of the open. Danny Seemiller Sr. vs one of our "1900" penholders that I've been struggling with and asking for advice on. This is the penholder that is VERY unorthodox and is literally incapable of hitting the same spot twice. (he puts different sidespin on each ball and cant put it in the same spot, high level players often underestimate him because he can't warm up with them).

It was a best of 5 set where Danny won the first game in deuce 12-10. Zing (the selftaught penholder) then won the next game 11-7. This game was very convincing and you could see the frustration and calculations Danny was making on his face. Zing was nervous but had no idea who the guy was and didn't care.

Zing then went on to taking the first 5 points of the third game, Danny stopped for a good minute thinking and then fought back and the score was even'ed up at 5-5. It then became a fight back and fourth for points but Zing was up the whole game. He went on to winning the game in deuce at 13-11.

Zing was winning the set 2-1. and then he asked Danny a question that just made EVERYONE laugh. "Is your other side long pips?" Danny told him it was anti-spin with a big smile, like he didn't believe a word out of zing's mouth in his questioning, and a look of realization showed on Zing's face

Danny was no slouch, and with years of experience, he buckled down hard and came back to win the 4th game from a 4-8 deficit, in yet another deuce. 12-10.

Unfortunately our club's hopes were killed in the 5th game where Danny won convincingly 11-7.

Zing plays almost the entire game with his forehand side (skyline tg3 rubber glued on with a gluestick, I've seen him do this many times because the glue doesn't hold well) and on the backhand side of his bat he plays with medium/long pips with NO sponge. Because of the no sponge his gluestick doesn't like to hold the rubber to the blade very well so he uses scotch tape around the edges to hold it down.
 
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We have a guy in my area who is one of the only players from West Virginia to ever break USATT 2000 rating. He achieved this by regularly stomping all local players in the 1500-1800 range. He never plays anyone rated above him. Ever. There's nobody even rated above him to play.
 
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Question for Carl and NL. Do you think it would be unwise of me to compete in a higher level section like U2100. AS WELL as my lowest rated section possible? Being able to compete with players around 1800-1900 and winning 50% or more of my matches would surely be at least good practice.

I learn a lot more from close losses than close wins. As a player, I tend to look back at my losses and try and figure out what I could have done better or improve on. I don't as frequently look back at my wins and think "how could I have won that game better".

I'm convinced entering the lowest rated group possible is a good idea now. But could it have also been good to enter one where the games are challenging and close instead of mostly cake walks and then a few that were close?
 
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