Shuki Development and Questions

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I always play very soft and make thin contact on the majority of my strokes, the majority of his balls were pretty flat which makes it uncomfortable for my soft play.

I generally play in hopes of getting a spinny loop to block back soft. I don't really consider my attacks attacks but lot of a soft flip to get a rally going or start fishing. Which you really didn't get to see against this opponent. Saturday I should be able to get some good matches in and will record again with better playersz


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You pushed the ball way too much and got lucky that the long serves were not looped back at you.
For my long serves, I Play for them to attack, but not have a strong one, my service variation is mostly about placement. When I serve cross table I try to hit their pocket, wide backhand, or sweet spot to give them confidence in trying the stroke after I mess with them on the other placement. I also like serving fast wide to forehand, I think if I remember right I liked doing this to him because although he could loop it, it would never be a strong one whilst he was running away from the table for it.

If the long serves were getting looped back at me strongly, I wouldn't be serving long to that opponent anymore. I don't think I necessarily was lucky that the long serves weren't looped back.


But you were playing someone who didn't threaten you so I guess you were relaxed. At one time, you served, got a long ball above net height, then pushed it. IF you do that against me, you probably won't see the next ball if I am in decent form.

Your body rotation is often pretty good and you play in a low and wide stance, which are good things. Your lateral movement wasn't seriously tested but you did block well usually.

In other words, bring a match against better opposition that will reveal your problems because beating up on you in a match you won but didn't feel threatened would be like me asking for serious comments based on the set I posted recently. We are adult learners, so not everything is equally important or should be discussed as such.

When you bring up the balls that were above net height that I pushed, this is really something I need to work on, If I'm against an opponent who I can simply push forever without any repercussions coming from it I get into a push mindset against their pushes. Once I'm in that mindset, even easy, high pushes, I'll just push back instead of capitalizing which is what I really should do to improve.

When I play a player like this I should surely work a bit harder on improving aspects of my game instead of just going for the win. But again I have a tournament soon so I've been working on just winning games, not really improving technique.

Your points are very correct though, a lot of these things I was doing against him would get me destroyed against a strong player. Thanks for bringing up the points you noticed!
 
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I know NextLevel thinks I may need to change my grip. But I have to be honest, I feel there are ways of making changing grip easy. A robot is one. The bounce the ball on the table and self hit scenario where you can do a bucket of 144 balls in 2-3 min and then go and pick them all up is better to start.

But if I the self hit thing for 30-40 min and then hit on a robot for 40-90 min, I could be used to a new grip to enough of an extent to do more complex training drills after that.

There are ways of changing grips that make it easier to get used to it faster.

I can't remember if it is 2 or 3 years ago now. But there was a period of several months where I changed grips 4 times.

I settled on the one I have because I don't even notice the switch from BH to FH or back. All the other grips, one was easier than the other and the switch was not natural.

At that time M Landers talked to me about how he thought I should be able to switch grips for each without being aware of it. And that, on different shots with FH you might change your grip subtly for fade and straight. I actually think I just need to train fade shots. Because I am just not used to it. But I can change my wrist for them.

Never practiced it.


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As far as pushing a lot against a weaker player, you actually should work on set plays where you set up the attack and control play. Or have some kind of goals for the rallies. Rather than just making things easy on yourself.

Working on different kinds of strategies when playing someone you know doesn't challenge you can be really useful training.


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Shuki, I get it. You have a good countering game. Conventional TT wisdom says that among level.players, he who gets in the first topspin wins 80% of the points. I don't remember upsetting a better player without getting in my fair share of first topspins. In fact, more than my fair share.

I know only one player whose block at my level comes close to justifying his pushing and blocking and even he loops backspin pretty well - its his counterloop that is behind the rest of his game so he kick blocks a lot and pretty consistently too.

Maybe you are one of those guys who is going to round our your defense before building out your offense. But the problem with giving up the first topspin.is that you have to be able to do it occasionally to keep the opponent honest, or he will just pick the right ball to open on.

Remember that 80% stat. It influenced how I play against everyone. But it makes no sense to work the stat when you are playing someone who is not on your level. But you can easily be upset by lower rated players who are consistent.
 
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@Shuki : You have a tournament in a few days. So don't fill up your head with too much information and critique about your game play. Take some rest , probably even a couple of days off so that you can hit the tournament with fresh legs. You can work on your grip, setting up rallies etc later. Trust me you will learn a lot about your game in this upcoming tournament. I always come out a better player when I play a tournament and I believe it to be true.

Now the one liner I threw at you was not without watching your game, I actually did watch almost your entire match.

but just to reiterate :

"The most important thing in table tennis is to relax and focus at the same time".

Set up a routine to focus so that you go through a couple of sentences in your mind before you do serve or receive.

Typical example :

1. When receiving : I need to make sure to see the contact point to understand the spin and focus on the first bounce to tell if its going to be long or short. The rest will take care of itself.

2. when serving : I am going to serve short or long , heavy or light and the return will come back with some of the spin that I put if I serve side , or if you serve light under the ball might be light under or no spin ... I guess you get the drift.

Also, never get frustrated even if you miss what you consider an easy put away, nothing is an easy put away in table tennis .

And lastly, the player who puts one more ball on the table wins , no matter what....
 
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So in order to not sound cryptic, let me point out the influences on my game so you know my biases.

Brett is obviously one. Brett believes in having uncapped technique on your strokes ans serves and footwork then using those strokes and serves to play and get better with experience. He tries to help people avoid confusing bad technique with temporary or short term problems which will resolve with practice and experience once technique is right.

My other coach, Gerald Reid, who coached me and Alex Polyakov to USATT 2000, is a very tactical mind who believes in good strokes for a certain level and them rebuilding them to solve new problems as you get to the next level. He is also big on just in time plays and tactical approaches to the problems you face. His bias is for strong serve receive and rally over strong serves. He believes that if you can attack serves, you dismantle the games of lots of players.

Ultimately, both preach aggressive TT but Brett thinks at about what would prevent someone from being world class first and foremost, while Gerald is more about solving the problems that currently keep you from the next level.

Gerald IMO would have a more generous view of your game as Gerald gained a lot from being a good blocker. That said, both coaches would say that you can't get much better unless you consistently try to play the first topspin.

Of course, you can get away with it against certain players. But you need a very high level countering and serve return game to survive playing that way as you get better. And the problem is that habits lock you up in this game. When I got to 1800 as a blocker and pusher, I had to spend a lot of time changing my instincts so that I could attack serves. I popped up too many serves as a pusher.

Most better players will challenge you with backspin no spin combos and side backspin ans sidespin combos to get attackable balls. It gets harder to anticipate and move to loop kills Even spinny loops get really spinny at a certain.point. if o had good knees, I don't see myself missing an opening loop at my level. And I see it in the drilled kids.

So to cut a long story short, don't underestimate the fact that you are building habits and plays now. Some people play in places where better players undervalue the first topspin. In fact, I beat many old school players who push serves because they don't have strong over the table.attack.strokes. but all that changes against the young players.

So remember, think long term. Today, I played a guy who usually beats me but I.have been getting relatively even recently. I lost the last match 5-9 up and same today. But then won the second match 10-8. Having lost the first,I stopped pushing his serve as much and flicked and.looped if more often. I went down 0-2, but the tone change made him attack my pushes worse and let me set up my blocks better. I could probably lose another 5matches to him but I can't get better.unless I practice attacking his serves. Pushing them.will keep me stuck.because.other players will serve similar stuff and attack as hard.

So always think long term in practice. Note the risk in sticking with a blocking game. Few people can play it at the 2000 level and survive.
 
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Shuki, I get it. You have a good countering game. Conventional TT wisdom says that among level.players, he who gets in the first topspin wins 80% of the points. I don't remember upsetting a better player without getting in my fair share of first topspins. In fact, more than my fair share.

I know only one player whose block at my level comes close to justifying his pushing and blocking and even he loops backspin pretty well - its his counterloop that is behind the rest of his game so he kick blocks a lot and pretty consistently too.

Maybe you are one of those guys who is going to round our your defense before building out your offense. But the problem with giving up the first topspin.is that you have to be able to do it occasionally to keep the opponent honest, or he will just pick the right ball to open on.

Remember that 80% stat. It influenced how I play against everyone. But it makes no sense to work the stat when you are playing someone who is not on your level. But you can easily be upset by lower rated players who are consistent.

Where's that 80% stat come from? is that for high level professionals only? I know many players who rarely attack first, and are quite highly rated/respected
 
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I know NextLevel thinks I may need to change my grip. But I have to be honest, I feel there are ways of making changing grip easy. A robot is one. The bounce the ball on the table and self hit scenario where you can do a bucket of 144 balls in 2-3 min and then go and pick them all up is better to start.

But if I the self hit thing for 30-40 min and then hit on a robot for 40-90 min, I could be used to a new grip to enough of an extent to do more complex training drills after that.

There are ways of changing grips that make it easier to get used to it faster.

I can't remember if it is 2 or 3 years ago now. But there was a period of several months where I changed grips 4 times.

I settled on the one I have because I don't even notice the switch from BH to FH or back. All the other grips, one was easier than the other and the switch was not natural.

At that time M Landers talked to me about how he thought I should be able to switch grips for each without being aware of it. And that, on different shots with FH you might change your grip subtly for fade and straight. I actually think I just need to train fade shots. Because I am just not used to it. But I can change my wrist for them.

Never practiced it.


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Lots of approaches to grips. You can have a grip for every shot if you want to play that way - I know kids and other players who do that and I was on that track too sometimes. I now prefer the approach that ttmonster and myself have taken - keep it simple. Of course, you need to find a grip that effectively allows you to play all your shots and that is what the grips that ttmonster and myself use tries to do.

ProTT players train frequently and anticipate the ball better than we do so they can obviously change their grip to match the ball. If you look at Dima practicing or playing, he is almost twiddling every shot to use the right rip for where the ball comes to, same with Timo Boll. Ma Long has a more elaborate switch these days that supports his backhand. Landers is a great US player, but he has major BH issues - his level doesn't drop so much when he chops, for example. Whether the switching is a part of that I will leave for another time.

I don't think I would be happy doing or teaching that. Not when there exists an alternative that allows you to play all the major strokes without any major downside. Of course, there will be minor switches in my hand and finger positioning, but none of them will be conscious. I can also use that grip for 90% of my strokes and have the odd one or two that I Want to change for, or do minor thumb and finger changes like some players, but I have found them unnecessary so far so I am happy to not switch.

In your case, I don't think you need to change your grip. IT's really about how the grip impacts your effectiveness. I can see Shuki's grip restricting his wrist and whip on almost every stroke. His coach must feel bad watching him use that grip even as she is happy with his game. IT's literally that bad.

In your case, I haven't really seen you backhand loop. IMO, once you can do good loops on both side with the same grip, then the discussion of grip change is largely meaningless, and if you unconsciously switch into different but ideal grips for both, it becomes meaningless too if your anticipation supports it. But I have seen enough in the past year coaching and working with Brett to know that you have to take people's grips seriously as something that can prevent them from doing what you want to teach as a coach.
 
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on second thought, I'm really starting to overthing form right now and I'm going to take ttmonster's advice and just focus on the tournament. I really need to worry about this stuff afterwards.

I told you exactly the same thing. This is all for after the tournament. Right now, you just play hard until the tournament.

That said, remember that you have a lot of time to play TT. Don't take anything in TT so seriously that it makes or breaks you. IF you enjoy playing with your grip, play with it. IF you enjoy blocking, play that way. The things I am speaking about only matter when you have long term goals like breaking 2200 or 2000 and you think about what kind of way you have to play to get there. IT's hard for someone where you are to see the things that will help or hinder you. And you can get to 2000 playing the way you do. It's just harder.

Remember, I played largely like you and got to 1800/1900. Then I had to rebuild my game and add in new weapons. If I publish video of me playing two or three years ago, the differences are so stark it is hard to recognize the same player sometimes. You can always take the route I took. Build out defense first, then add counteroffense and offense later.
 
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@Shuki : You have a tournament in a few days. So don't fill up your head with too much information and critique about your game play. Take some rest , probably even a couple of days off so that you can hit the tournament with fresh legs. You can work on your grip, setting up rallies etc later. Trust me you will learn a lot about your game in this upcoming tournament. I always come out a better player when I play a tournament and I believe it to be true.

Now the one liner I threw at you was not without watching your game, I actually did watch almost your entire match.

but just to reiterate :

"The most important thing in table tennis is to relax and focus at the same time".

Set up a routine to focus so that you go through a couple of sentences in your mind before you do serve or receive.

Typical example :

1. When receiving : I need to make sure to see the contact point to understand the spin and focus on the first bounce to tell if its going to be long or short. The rest will take care of itself.

2. when serving : I am going to serve short or long , heavy or light and the return will come back with some of the spin that I put if I serve side , or if you serve light under the ball might be light under or no spin ... I guess you get the drift.

Also, never get frustrated even if you miss what you consider an easy put away, nothing is an easy put away in table tennis .

And lastly, the player who puts one more ball on the table wins , no matter what....

All great advice. I would also recommend stuff from Samson Dubina's blog or Larry Hodges blog for playing your first tournament
 
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Where's that 80% stat come from? is that for high level professionals only? I know many players who rarely attack first, and are quite highly rated/respected

I got it from Brett. Not sure his source. Usually, coaches or statisticians review matches and look at statistical patterns. The average length of a point is pretty short (3-4 shots in most studies) so that places a premium on serve, receive, third ball, fourth ball and fifth ball. Rallies are just rare on TT.

You can analyze your matches and see how long the average rallies are and where you win points. If you understand how you want to play, such analysis can be illuminating.
 
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All of your comments have been read too late. Today I was fiddling with grip change a bit and then said "meh back to my regular grip" this now became uncomfortable, nothing was comfortable, I didn't know what my grip was anymore! sad day, I was panicking and broken.

I told a high level player (Joe Windem, played at high level long ago before life caught up with him and he wanted to spend that life more with family) that I forgot my grip and he had similar issues when he first started doing tournaments from anxiety, where he would forget how to hold the paddle. He then ran me through some basic footwork drills and said don't worry about the quality of your stroke and just get your feet moving for these drills. After a couple minutes my grip found it's way back and all was right in the world.

He also went on to telling me that my main training partner and I are polar opposites with similar styles. My grip is the extreme of that direction which makes grazing easier while my main training partner's is the extreme opposite which makes blocking spin and creating spin harder to do but when players hit fast shots he returns them with ease. He told me I shouldn't change my grip and gave off quite a few reasons why my grip benefitted my game. We'll get into why later, I'd rather not focus on these types of things now.

It truly worried me when I couldn't get comfortable even holding a paddle.

EVERYONE IS RIGHT, FOCUS ON THIS STUFF AFTER A TOURNAMENT, not BEFORE
 
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I am glad you found a way to get over it and also found a way to let it out in the forum . Now just sit back, relax and go to the tournament with no expectation . Just remember to focus on the small things !! Following the process is more important that focusing on the results.
All of your comments have been read too late. Today I was fiddling with grip change a bit and then said "meh back to my regular grip" this now became uncomfortable, nothing was comfortable, I didn't know what my grip was anymore! sad day, I was panicking and broken.

I told a high level player (Joe Windem, played at high level long ago before life caught up with him and he wanted to spend that life more with family) that I forgot my grip and he had similar issues when he first started doing tournaments from anxiety, where he would forget how to hold the paddle. He then ran me through some basic footwork drills and said don't worry about the quality of your stroke and just get your feet moving for these drills. After a couple minutes my grip found it's way back and all was right in the world.

He also went on to telling me that my main training partner and I are polar opposites with similar styles. My grip is the extreme of that direction which makes grazing easier while my main training partner's is the extreme opposite which makes blocking spin and creating spin harder to do but when players hit fast shots he returns them with ease. He told me I shouldn't change my grip and gave off quite a few reasons why my grip benefitted my game. We'll get into why later, I'd rather not focus on these types of things now.

It truly worried me when I couldn't get comfortable even holding a paddle.

EVERYONE IS RIGHT, FOCUS ON THIS STUFF AFTER A TOURNAMENT, not BEFORE
 
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