Stats of CNT players against non-CNT players 2017

[NextLevel]

BTW, I have beaten many players who are faster, train more and are healthier than I am. I sometimes beat them simply because I have better serves, other times because I read spin better. Table tennis is more complicated than you are pointing out, though I know many people that like to make themselves feel better that despite the fact I only started playing 6 years ago, I am better than they are because I supposedly practice far more.

We can't answer everything with statistics but my point is that you can't have it both ways, calling Waldner the greatest of all time by sticking to your preferred measure (WLQ is at least as great, IMO), and then talking about eras. In fact, one of the points that supports WLQ is his consistency across many years on the rankings, which you would dismiss with one wave of the hand because "Pro Tours don't matter". Just like Ma Long, he had his own brand of Wang Hao issues.

In any case, I know that you are more nuanced than I am sometimes making out. But I also know that you like to twist the nuances to win arguments (who doesn't).

 

[TTFrenzy]

BTW, I have beaten many players who are faster, train more and are healthier than I am. I sometimes beat them simply because I have better serves, other times because I read spin better. Table tennis is more complicated than you are pointing out, though I know many people that like to make themselves feel better that despite the fact I only started playing 6 years ago, I am better than they are because I supposedly practice far more.

We can't answer everything with statistics but my point is that you can't have it both ways, calling Waldner the greatest of all time by sticking to your preferred measure (WLQ is at least as great, IMO), and then talking about eras. In fact, one of the points that supports WLQ is his consistency across many years on the rankings, which you would dismiss with one wave of the hand because "Pro Tours don't matter". Just like Ma Long, he had his own brand of Wang Hao issues.

In any case, I know that you are more nuanced than I am sometimes making out. But I also know that you like to twist the nuances to win arguments (who doesn't).

Yes, thats exactly what I meant and I kinda expexted you to say about the complication of TT as a game. Of course being faster or smarter or better trained does not mean crap if your serve receive is bad. There are many dediciding factors for one to win or lose a game, I was just speaking on pure hypothesis because I have a taste of you as a player and vice versa.

But what do you mean I cant have it both ways ? I didnt quite understand that. Indeed I like arguements sometimes just for the sake of a good arguement, but what can we actually do to rate a player objectively? I was thinking something like a point rating system but people would still argue, which is totally understandable as we are all different.

For eaxmple 1st place in world champ gets 100 rating points and world cup 85 , olympics 90 as weird as it may seem . But then we would have to specify rating points for 2nd and 3rd place. Tough cookie indeed.

Unfortunately and I m just being realistic here (not fair, but realistic) pro tours 2nd and 3rd places (in all tours including prestige ones) , do not matter as much as they should in people's hearts and enthusiasm. Isnt it a fact ? If pro tours did matter, then ML would have all these crazy fans since 2008 instead of ZJK . And wang hao would be considered a legend not the guy who lost 3 times in olympics. After his 1st loss in 2004 I remember reading the newspaper that said that WH got support and love only from his province because everybody in china was " throwing tomatoes" at him

 

[NextLevel]

Unfortunately and I m just being realistic here (not fair, but realistic) pro tours 2nd and 3rd places (in all tours including prestige ones) , do not matter as much as they should in people's hearts and enthusiasm. Isnt it a fact ? If pro tours did matter, then ML would have all these crazy fans since 2008 instead of ZJK . And wang hao would be considered a legend not the guy who lost 3 times in olympics. After his 1st loss in 2004 I remember reading the newspaper that said that WH got support and love only from his province because everybody in china was " throwing tomatoes" at him

This is an interesting set of statements, since
1) fandom is not only about winning per se
2) ML does have crazy fans, and had them despite not having won any majors even 7 years ago
3) Both ML and WH are legends.
4) WH lost to a foreigner in the finals, which explains the likely exaggerated story.

As for rating players, every system will have its pluses and minuses. As long as they are often aligned with what we generally understand to imply greatness, then the details might reveal interesting results.

 

[tropical]

To know who is actually the GOAT we must remove subjective factors and rely only on certain criteria. Examples are the playing time spans, # of W-L in these periods, big titles, etc.

Winning of a big title is rated 100, ITTF tournaments are rated 60, or just use similar rating system in ITTF, USTTA, ... and apply it to GOAT. Just a thought!

 

[rainneverever]

Here are the players who won 1 title in the three major tournaments (Olympic Games, WTTC and World Cup) since Table Tennis was introduced to Olympic Games in 1988.
1 Gold in Olympic Games: Yoo Nam-kyu (1988), Chen Jing (1988), Ryu Seung-min(2004)
1 Gold in WTTC: Qiao Hong (1989), Hyun Jung-hwa (1993), Werner Schlager (2003), Guo Yue(2007)
1 World Cup: Andrzej Grubba (1988), Jörg Roßkopf (1998), Xu Xin (2013), Fan Zhendong (2016), Miu Hirano (2016)

And I made a table of some stats of the players who won more than 1 title in the three major tournaments. There are 5 male and 5 female players who won Grand Slam, highlighted in yellow. The players with the most titles in major tournaments are highlighted in orange (5: Ma Lin and Zhang Jike, 8: Wang Nan and Zhang Yining). The longest winning periods (the length between the first and last time of winning a title) are highlighted in green (10 years: Vladimir Samsonov and Wang Nan). The * indicates the winning of pro tour grand finals (last column) before winning a major title. Highlighted in blue are the records of the longest time ranked as #WR1 (56 months: Wang Liqin, 88 months: Deng Yaping). Although pro tour grand finals are not highly regarded, all female players listed have this title. In red are the players who have the most grand finals (5: Ma Long, 4: Zhang Yining).

There is no golden standard to evaluate the greatness of these players; to be honest, I am glad that there is no such standard. Each player has his/her unique spot on the wall of fame. But if I must choose, Jan-Ove Waldner is the greatest male player of all time and Deng Yaping the greatest female player of all time. They are the first ones to achieve Grand Slam and their winning periods are long (8 years and 6 years, respectively). Deng Yaping was retired in 1997, at age of 24. That's why she only has 1 World Cup (starting from 1996) and could not make two rounds of Grand Slam as Zhang Yining did. Zhang Yining is the only person who makes two rounds of Grand Slam while Wang Nan is the only person who wins 3 consecutive WTTCs. Wang Liqin is the only male player who wins 3 WTTCs and keeps the record of #WR1 which will soon be broken by Ma Long. Let's see if more names will show up in this table after 2017 WTTC.

 

[rainneverever]

Timo Boll, Vladimir Samsonov and Chuang Chih Yuan are always considered as CNT's rivals in the past 5 Olympic Games. Unfortunately none of them have won a medal.


For Athens 2004, CNT's 9 1st-tier rivals included Timo Boll, Vladimir Samsonov，Chuang Chih Yuan, Werner Schlager, Kalinikos Kreanga, Oh Sang Eun, Ryu Seung Min, Chiang Peng Lung and Joo Sae Hyuk and 12 2nd-tier rivals included Jan-Ove Waldner, Jörgen Persson and Zoran Primorac.


For Beijing 2008, I did not find an official list. If we use 2007 WTTC's list as a reference, CNT's 1st-tier rivals were Timo Boll, Vladimir Samsonov, Oh Sang Eun, Ryu Seung Min, Chuang Chih Yuan, Werner Schlager, and Petr Korbel.


For London 2012, Timo Boll, Dimitrij Ovtcharov, Jun Mizutani, Joo Sae Hyuk and Chuang Chih Yuan were among the 1st-tier.

For Rio 2016, 6 players were considered 1st-tier rivals: Timo Boll, Dimitrij Ovtcharov, Jun Mizutani, Chuang Chih Yuan, Vladimir Samsonov and Marcos Freitas. 11 2nd-tier included Wong Chun Ting and Jung Young Sik, and 10 3rd-tier included Liam Pitchford and Quadri Aruna.

 

[rainneverever]

Here are the ITTF H2H records between CNT's rivals (mostly 1st-tier, see my post #146) and CNT players who are Olympic medalists in singles. Xu Zengcai, Jiang Jialiang, Chen Longcan, Lu Lin, and Liu Guozheng are CNT players who attended OG singles but did not win a medal.

Highlighted are the players who are considered as CNT's 1st-tier rivals for four times (in orange), three times (in green) and twice (in blue) since 2004. Timo Boll, Chuang Chih Yuan and Vladimir Samsonov really stand out as beating multiple CNT players from different generations. ITTF records of Waldner against CNT players may not be complete, marked in grey.

Who will be on the list of CNT's 1st-tier rivals for Tokyo 2020? Jun Mizutani, Dimitrij Ovtcharov, Jeoung Young Sik and who else? What do you think?

 

[rainneverever]

I came across an interview with Liu Guoliang after CNT won the team events in 2012 London Olympic Games. I know some people believe whatever Liu Guoliang said while some people believe Liu Guoliang only when his opinions help the arguments. So just read for fun.

http://2012.qq.com/a/20120809/000115.htm
Liu Guoliang talked about Ma Long:
"I have very high expectations for Ma Long. He is more gifted than Wang Hao and Zhang Jike. He needs a breakthrough in a major tournament to fully trust himself."
"Ma Long is not as wild as Zhang Jike. Unlike Wang Hao, he does not take things easy. He is chasing perfection. Once I joked with him, 'You are the person in the world who looks down on Ma Long to the greatest extent.' "
"I won Grand Slam when I was a player. As a coach, my biggest dream was to train my players into Grand Slam and my dream finally came true. My next goal is to train Ma Long into a Grand Slam!"

 

[rainneverever]

Ma Long lost to a non-CNT player in 2017 ATTC MS R32! Will update the stats after all the ATTC events.

 

[rainneverever]

Coach Wu Jingping revealed new photo wall of men's rivals of CNT for 2017 WTTC. Seven 1st-tier rivals include: Jung Young Sik, Chuang Chih Yuan, Dimitrij Ovtcharov, Jun Mizutani, Timo Boll, Vladimir Samsonov and Marcos Freitas. I guess Miu Hirano will be on the 1st-tier rival list of women's team.

 

[rainneverever]

In the 2017 Asian Championships, Ma Long lost to Jeong Sangeun and Xu Xin lost to Koki Niwa. Now Ma Long sets a record of not losing to a non-CNT player for 4.5 years. Will Fan Zhendong break this record?

CNT has an internal ranking system for international tournaments:
WTTC: winner +500, runner-up +300, SF +200
World Cup: winner +320, runner-up +160
ITTF World Tour/ITTF World Tour Grand Finals/Asian Cup/Asian Champs: winner +160, runner-up +110, SF +70, QF +30
Losing to a non-CNT player: -100
There is also a penalty of 20,000 RMB (~2900 USD) for losing to a non-CNT player.

 

[rainneverever]

Updated after 2017 WTTC
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<script async="" src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[TTHopeful]

What does the photo conclude Rainever?

 

[rainneverever]

Just an update of my post #145. No new names show up in the chart who won more than 1 title in the three major tournaments after 2017 WTTC. Will Xu Xin (World Cup 2013), Fan Zhendong (World Cup 2016), Miu Hirano (World Cup 2016) have a chance after World Cup 2017? Let's wait and see.

What does the photo conclude Rainever?

 

[ControlledSpin]

Great post! Thanks for putting this info together!

 

[rainneverever]

update after 2019 WTTC

 

[drunix80]

I think ZJK is a self absorbed egotistical guy who doesn't care about the team events and played badly because he didn't care. There are many matches ZJK lost where it looks like he just didn't have his head or his heart in the match.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Completely agree with Carl. We all know ZJK had his own way and he always peaked for the big events. Even before Rio, he lost to many foreigners and LGL himself admitted that he was afraid ZJK would be knocked out in early stages in Rio. But even with injury he grabbed silver.

Cant agree with Rain about ZJK's poor technique. People all over the world tried to copy his BH and considered it the best there was. His FH, footwork and serve were almost equally good. At the end of the day, he is closest to two grand slams anybody has gotten and fastest to a grand slam. No doubt ML has much better work ethic and much more disciplined approach. That's the main reason for his longevity and dominance.