Stats of CNT players against non-CNT players 2017

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think this table clearly shows one fact , why LGL prefers to have Ma Long , Xu Xin and ZJK . They have an established history against foreign players and its easier for coaches to strategize against opponents. The rest of the team has yet to wrack up the number of wins these guys have to give the coaches confidence.

spot on.
Other than FZD, no other youngster really stands out.
imo this is a big concern on who to carry the team forward.

Players like Zhou Yu, Fang Bo and Yan An is not stepping up
LGY has been around for a long time already too

XX, FZD would need to carry the team until more super athlete shows up.
So we may have a weak number 3, 4 and 5 going forward for China (meaning, they could loose to non Chinese easily)

 

[ajtatosmano2]

I just wanna say that LGL keep working on ZJK. He always get a chance. LGL always uses him as a good example. He is an idol even inside the CNT (remember LGL's speech). And there must be a reason why ZJK is still mentioned together with Ma Long.
Regarding to his technique: I read an essay wrote by a CNT (ex?)coach, where he says that ZJK was the first complete player, even Wang Hao had problems.

 

[TTFrenzy]

If you read the context clearly you'd understand what I meant without the need to define anything. "Same" means the same level of achievement. I only argue about ZJK could be #1 of all time if he is motivated.

FZD has achieved more? BEing no2 in the world rankings does not mean much and the trials proved he has competition . I say that in case you are 100 % sure that FZD will be the next no1 in terms of titles. Time will tell

What you are saying is a matter of perspective and maybe personal taste. What you consider the best performance or #1 of all times may not be the same for me or tony or nextlevel or carl and so on .

For me ZJK has all this praise because he offered the viewers something we have never seen before and Im not talking only for exaggerated celebrations . #1 of all times is definitely a debatable term since we cannot compare different things and eras. What we can do is evaluate how each world champion performed at his era

 

[ajtatosmano2]

spot on.
Other than FZD, no other youngster really stands out.
imo this is a big concern on who to carry the team forward.

Players like Zhou Yu, Fang Bo and Yan An is not stepping up
LGY has been around for a long time already too

XX, FZD would need to carry the team until more super athlete shows up.
So we may have a weak number 3, 4 and 5 going forward for China (meaning, they could loose to non Chinese easily)

Wang Chuqin has lots of time but seems a little unmotivated. Still has a chance to be superplayer. Liu Dingshuo is eager to develop, maybe he can become a big gun also. I give him more chance than to LJK.

 

[TTFrenzy]

I think this table clearly shows one fact , why LGL prefers to have Ma Long , Xu Xin and ZJK . They have an established history against foreign players and its easier for coaches to strategize against opponents. The rest of the team has yet to wrack up the number of wins these guys have to give the coaches confidence.

Now coming to the issue of focus there is no doubt that Ma Long is more focused and prepared than others , however, it used to be his downfall as well which he has now overcome , whether through alcohol or whatever , he has done it.

From the technical point of view, I remember LGL criticising ZJK's game as one dimensional and saying that there are some spins that ZJK did not understand as well as Ma Long . But I think ZJK has improved on that. His short game and the first three balls are better than anybody on the team.

From the perspective of attitude , my personal opinion is that for ZJK its a case of injury + motivation + attitude . Only the CNT coaches will know truly if ZJK has issues with attitude and if he indeed has a big issue there they would have thrown him out a long time back. From his generally sleepy demeanor its very hard to tell whether he is focusing from the outside , however in the recent past , especially after the recent injuries whenever he has played he has looked 100% motivated. The coaches will live in the present ...

Ultimately table tennis boils down to a game of real time problem solving , where Ma Long currently has an edge over others. However , when he faces a healthy ZJK it becomes a Federer vs Nadal equivalent , ZJK's strength ( backhand and defense ) matching up against Ma Long's weakness ( backhand ) , so its becomes very close.

Great post I liked the federer nadal comparison. LGL has admitted that CNT coaches have always had trouble with early success on specific athletes and how to keep them motivating when even they didnt expect them to bloom so early.

It seems to like a weird placebo effect, once you get the world title you think its all over and your mission is completed and everyone including you are happy. Whereas in fact everything is starting all over again but this time you dont hunt all the other players hunt you

 

[TTFrenzy]

spot on.
Other than FZD, no other youngster really stands out.
imo this is a big concern on who to carry the team forward.

Players like Zhou Yu, Fang Bo and Yan An is not stepping up
LGY has been around for a long time already too

XX, FZD would need to carry the team until more super athlete shows up.
So we may have a weak number 3, 4 and 5 going forward for China (meaning, they could loose to non Chinese easily)

I hope LGY does not crumble under pressure in the upcoming WTTC. Im always for the underdog, best two sets are not enough to say he is ready but he did perform unexpectedly well in the trials

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yep

I really hope other than LGY, they also bring another youngster, and having the ML, XX, FZD has gold medal contenders.
The 2 youngsters as QF and up

 

[tropical]

FZD has achieved more? BEing no2 in the world rankings does not mean much and the trials proved he has competition . I say that in case you are 100 % sure that FZD will be the next no1 in terms of titles. Time will tell

What you are saying is a matter of perspective and maybe personal taste. What you consider the best performance or #1 of all times may not be the same for me or tony or nextlevel or carl and so on .

For me ZJK has all this praise because he offered the viewers something we have never seen before and Im not talking only for exaggerated celebrations . #1 of all times is definitely a debatable term since we cannot compare different things and eras. What we can do is evaluate how each world champion performed at his era

It is true that it is my 2cents opinion just like yours and everyone here.

There is no 100% guarantee that FZD will be Grand Slam champion as who can predict the future? Looking at the data given by Rainneverever the next #1 Chinese and the world is likely to be FZD. He is still young and has a lot of time to improve. He is currently shadowed a bit by ML but not too long before he can beat ML more convincingly.

Up to now, by data or facts I'd say ML is #1 of all time (mor than Waldner?). Maybe Rainneverever can provide us some numbers from other greats?

 

[rainneverever]

Ma Lin's first three balls are considered the best in CNT (Liu Guoliang, Li Xiaodong). Ma Long's first three balls are considered as a combination of shakehand and penholder style. After 2011 WTTC, when Liu Guoliang commented on the performance of CNT players (Table Tennis World Magazine, 2011 Issue 6, http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2011-06-23/10175629837.shtml), he said "Ma Long's first three balls are even better than Ma Lin, but this advantage did not show up in major tournaments." In 2014 annual review of Fan Zhengdong, Wu Jingping said Fan Zhendong had to learn from Ma Long's first three balls for improvement. Again, I have no problem at all if people have different opinions on which player has the best first three balls; to my knowledge, no CNT coach has said Zhang Jike had the best first three balls.


Was Zhang Jike the first complete CNT player? Did he have any technical/tactical/mental weakness in his good days? Let's take a look at what Xiao Zhan and Liu Guoliang said.
http://2012.qq.com/a/20120810/001157.htm
After London 2012, when asked about Zhang Jike's loss to Timo Boll, Xiao Zhan said, "Zhang Jike is not complete in his techniques and has some weaknesses.... He is still young and he can make more progress if he can fix these weaknesses. Besides technical issues, I think mental issues are also part of the reasons for his loss to Timo Boll." When asked whether Zhang Jike's easy win over Wang Hao in London reflected the real ability of the two players, Xiao Zhan said, “In fact, Wang Hao has better techniques and is more consistent than Zhang Jike. Compared to Wang Hao, Zhang Jike's is younger, more aggressive and tougher when facing difficulties. Zhang Jike was more confident when playing against Wang Hao after he beated Wang Hao in the crucial moments in two major tournaments previously, which may explain why Zhang Jike beated Wang Hao easily in the Olympic Games. But, in terms of techniques, I always think Wang Hao is better than Zhang Jike."
https://m.sohu.com/n/399172005/
After beating Team Germany 3-1 in 2014 WTTC team events, Liu Guoliang said, "Zhang Jike had nothing before 2010, and he won Grand Slam with fighting spirits. To be honest, there are many weaknesses in his techniques and he is not down-to-earth in the training. In the first year of new Olympic cycle, he won 2013 WTTC, but he has not made much progress in mental and technical developing." Of course Liu Guoliang still had faith in Zhang Jike and thought his loss to Dimitrij Ovtcharov a good lesson for him.


Again, we all have our own opinions and tastes. I am just a little uncomfortable when people sometimes take certain words from Liu Guoliang as the TRUTH and ignore his other comments.

 

[ttmonster]

I would just like to point out that all these comments on ZJK's technique are from around 2012 / 2013.
Yes , for the longest time he was an one dimensional player with his banana flick and the power off both wings and thats what LGL had also said that time. But as he got affected with injuries, he has really improved his short game , forehand push/flick and other serves . Anybody who followed the last olympics can draw their own conclusion , it does not have to come from the CNT coach's mouth ..

Ma Lin's first three balls are considered the best in CNT (Liu Guoliang, Li Xiaodong). Ma Long's first three balls are considered as a combination of shakehand and penholder style. After 2011 WTTC, when Liu Guoliang commented on the performance of CNT players (Table Tennis World Magazine, 2011 Issue 6, http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2011-06-23/10175629837.shtml), he said "Ma Long's first three balls are even better than Ma Lin, but this advantage did not show up in major tournaments." In 2014 annual review of Fan Zhengdong, Wu Jingping said Fan Zhendong had to learn from Ma Long's first three balls for improvement. Again, I have no problem at all if people have different opinions on which player has the best first three balls; to my knowledge, no CNT coach has said Zhang Jike had the best first three balls.


Was Zhang Jike the first complete CNT player? Did he have any technical/tactical/mental weakness in his good days? Let's take a look at what Xiao Zhan and Liu Guoliang said.
http://2012.qq.com/a/20120810/001157.htm
After London 2012, when asked about Zhang Jike's loss to Timo Boll, Xiao Zhan said, "Zhang Jike is not complete in his techniques and has some weaknesses.... He is still young and he can make more progress if he can fix these weaknesses. Besides technical issues, I think mental issues are also part of the reasons for his loss to Timo Boll." When asked whether Zhang Jike's easy win over Wang Hao in London reflected the real ability of the two players, Xiao Zhan said, “In fact, Wang Hao has better techniques and is more consistent than Zhang Jike. Compared to Wang Hao, Zhang Jike's is younger, more aggressive and tougher when facing difficulties. Zhang Jike was more confident when playing against Wang Hao after he beated Wang Hao in the crucial moments in two major tournaments previously, which may explain why Zhang Jike beated Wang Hao easily in the Olympic Games. But, in terms of techniques, I always think Wang Hao is better than Zhang Jike."
https://m.sohu.com/n/399172005/
After beating Team Germany 3-1 in 2014 WTTC team events, Liu Guoliang said, "Zhang Jike had nothing before 2010, and he won Grand Slam with fighting spirits. To be honest, there are many weaknesses in his techniques and he is not down-to-earth in the training. In the first year of new Olympic cycle, he won 2013 WTTC, but he has not made much progress in mental and technical developing." Of course Liu Guoliang still had faith in Zhang Jike and thought his loss to Dimitrij Ovtcharov a good lesson for him.


Again, we all have our own opinions and tastes. I am just a little uncomfortable when people sometimes take certain words from Liu Guoliang as the TRUTH and ignore his other comments.

 

[rainneverever]

Xiao Zhan's interview was in Aug 2012, right after Zhang Jike became Grand Slam. And Liu Guoliang's comments in 2014 suggested that he did not think Zhang Jike was ever complete. Those are their opinions on a Zhang Jike in his best time (2011-2013). Well, we have our own opinions.

Sorry if I misunderstood, do you suggest that Zhang Jike's performance in Rio 2016 demonstrated the best first three balls among CNT players? If so, I disagree since Ma Long's first three balls were better than Zhang Jike in the final. And I am not sure if Ma Long's first three balls are the best in CNT now; safe to say one of the best.

I would just like to point out that all these comments on ZJK's technique are from around 2012 / 2013.
Yes , for the longest time he was an one dimensional player with his banana flick and the power off both wings and thats what LGL had also said that time. But as he got affected with injuries, he has really improved his short game , forehand push/flick and other serves . Anybody who followed the last olympics can draw their own conclusion , it does not have to come from the CNT coach's mouth ..

 

[rainneverever]

Working on it. Will include Wang Tao, Kong Linghui, Liu Guoliang, Liu Guozheng, Wang Liqin, Ma Lin and Wang Hao.

Up to now, by data or facts I'd say ML is #1 of all time (mor than Waldner?). Maybe Rainneverever can provide us some numbers from other greats?

 

[ttmonster]

As you said, we all have our individual opinions.

When I watched Rio, my impression of Zhang jike was somebody who was playing on one leg , he could not reach to the wide forehand , he was simply winning his matches based on his third ball attack and serve receive. In fact , his forehand short receive and over the table third ball attacks were phenomenal, something I haven't seen since Ma Lin.

My memory of his encounter with Ma Long in the final is that Ma long did not let him play the short - short - flick game he played so successfully during the rest of the tournament and forced him to get into topspin topspin rallies where he moved him around. He was not at a physical level to compete with Ma Long in that kind of a game. if you carefully see most of the serve ma Long did were half long , no spin or topspin so that ZJK does not get to use his touch game to set the ball up. It does not take anything away from Ma Long, he came up with the right strategy and was deservedly the champion.

Xiao Zhan's interview was in Aug 2012, right after Zhang Jike became Grand Slam. And Liu Guoliang's comments in 2014 suggested that he did not think Zhang Jike was ever complete. Those are their opinions on a Zhang Jike in his best time (2011-2013). Well, we have our own opinions.

Sorry if I misunderstood, do you suggest that Zhang Jike's performance in Rio 2016 demonstrated the best first three balls among CNT players? If so, I disagree since Ma Long's first three balls were better than Zhang Jike in the final. And I am not sure if Ma Long's first three balls are the best in CNT now; safe to say one of the best.

 

[TTFrenzy]

It is true that it is my 2cents opinion just like yours and everyone here.

There is no 100% guarantee that FZD will be Grand Slam champion as who can predict the future? Looking at the data given by Rainneverever the next #1 Chinese and the world is likely to be FZD. He is still young and has a lot of time to improve. He is currently shadowed a bit by ML but not too long before he can beat ML more convincingly.

Up to now, by data or facts I'd say ML is #1 of all time (mor than Waldner?). Maybe Rainneverever can provide us some numbers from other greats?

Yet still depends on your criteria. Waldner was considered and maybe still is the GOAT and his pro tour results are crap.

But he was in wttc medals from 1987 to 1999 with 1995 exception kinda tough to beat that (also 2nd place in olympics @ 35 and 4th place @ 39 ml will never achieve that #1 because he will be retired before then and #2 because the internal competition @ cnt is so tough the youngsters will take his place) , but then again its different eras so its unfair to compare. Its only fair to say that ML is dominating his era and waldner his era. But for who is the GOAT there are countless factors to take into consideration, by results only waldner is for sure still the best ever. Please dont take pro tours into consideration they are not even significant.

Ma long still does not have the same titles with the same value as ZJK . Its not an unlikely scenario though for ML since he is injury free so far, to storm the tokyo olympics.

 

[NextLevel]

Yet still depends on your criteria. Waldner was considered and maybe still is the GOAT and his pro tour results are crap.

But he was in wttc medals from 1987 to 1999 with 1995 exception kinda tough to beat that (also 2nd place in olympics @ 35 and 4th place @ 39 ml will never achieve that #1 because he will be retired before then and #2 because the internal competition @ cnt is so tough the youngsters will take his place) , but then again its different eras so its unfair to compare. Its only fair to say that ML is dominating his era and waldner his era. But for who is the GOAT there are countless factors to take into consideration, by results only waldner is for sure still the best ever. Please dont take pro tours into consideration they are not even significant.

Ma long still does not have the same titles with the same value as ZJK . Its not an unlikely scenario though for ML since he is injury free so far, to storm the tokyo olympics.

This is all your opinion. It's like the people who say that Bill Russell is the greatest ever because he has 11 NBA championships. Times have changed and if you want to use criteria from the stone age to evaluate the current landscape, sure. Many people considered Ma Long the best player in the world even when ZJK was winning all those titles.

 

[TTFrenzy]

This is all your opinion. It's like the people who say that Bill Russell is the greatest ever because he has 11 NBA championships. Times have changed and if you want to use criteria from the stone age to evaluate the current landscape, sure. Many people considered Ma Long the best player in the world even when ZJK was winning all those titles.

Tropical used the titles criteria , not me all the other stone age bs u say is coming out of your head stop misinterpreting so much. As for opinions, yes no opinion has any validity. Titles are still what matters and will matter in the future

 

[NextLevel]

Tropical used the titles criteria , not me all the other stone age bs u say is coming out of your head stop misinterpreting so much. As for opinions, yes no opinion has any validity. Titles are still what matters and will matter in the future

Then Viktor Barna is the greatest player of all time because he has more titles. End of discussion.

 

[TTFrenzy]

Then Viktor Barna is the greatest player of all time because he has more titles. End of discussion.

no...yes. In which era ? viktor does not have olympics titles.

 

[NextLevel]

no...yes. In which era ? viktor does not have olympics titles.

But I thought you said Waldner was the GOAT. You didn't speak about eras or split players into eras. Or are you now saying that Waldner was the greatest of his era?

 

[TTFrenzy]

I did speak about eras man...and said countless times about comparisons that are not fair and that are two different things.

I know I may seem like the stuck up guy who likes the past glories and stuff (which is not the case ) but how can we ignore innovations of the game when talking about goats? For me I said it many times its pointless, we just leave everyone in his era and enjoy their skills. I just like to discuss things like that because I different perspectives and everyone here gives his two cents of knowledge plus valid arguements always make it interesting. No one can deny jan's value and no one can deny ML always crushing through 4-0 in pro tours no matter the state he is in .

Yes by consistent results ONLY in every single tournament including the smallest or biggest pro tour and country leagues ma long is outperforming anyone.

Einstein said something like you cant judge a fish by his ability to climb a tree.

Now lets take you and me for example , Im talking hypothetically here just to prove my general point.

You have a knee problem I dont thats is a fact . I am faster than you, fact again. Hypothetically speaking again if we play right now you will win because I dont train at all and you do. If I receive my maximum level of training and u also hypothetically speaking again I will have no problem winning against you.

Now lets say carl is our coach in the same team , if we receive the same training and advice and you improve by lets say 4 points and I only 2 points then carl as a coach should praise YOU much more than me because you have the knee problem and u still managed to improve more. Even if it is 4 points vs 4 points of improvement then still you should get the praise

BUT if we play in our local league as team mates, and I win the same opponent and you lose (knee problem being the deciding factor), people will say Im better (pointless opinions as we all agree on that) and I will get the praise (from the people, carl still knows better WHY you are better in terms of reached maximum ability and improvement and YOU deserve more praise than me)

The above example is just one factor of what I mean we must take multiple factors into consideration when judging a player