Technique advice for me

[blahness]

So I had another practice session today, tried to make some adjustments to my stroke. I think I like using a bit less hip rotation, it does help with recovery a bit. Also, in watching ML play I noticed that he dips his right shoulder a lot more than me, while I squat more than him. So I tried his method out and I liked it quite a bit. What it does is that it allows you to engage your left oblique and back more during the forward swing. Recruiting another large muscle can't be a bad thing. This allows the legs to lift a bit less, particularly against backspins, and kick right to left (or forward if you're going for the kill) more. This method allows maximal engagement of all 3 sections of your core, your legs, your hips, and your abdomen/back.

I finished my session practicing this using some weights as well. I learned it from @blahness and it's super helpful. Basically I would hold a barbell with a small weight on one end, then try to do the looping motion with my core. My arms can't really move since they're holding the barbell, so I basically try to move the weight in the same path as a racket using only my core. I think one of the reasons power generation from TT is not as natural is because of how light the racket and ball are. When you're using weights, you really need to engage your core to generate any speed. I really felt the left oblique/back engagement with this form, and now I feel like I get a good workout of my entire core after doing this exercise. That must mean it's pretty close to being the best form possible.

Thus, I think this is gonna be the form I'm gonna settle on. It's very transferable between looping backspins and topspins. You just need to dip your legs and shoulder a bit more for backspins, you'll naturally end up with a more up moving forward swing when you do that. The changes aren't too big, so I'll post my next video when I start doing more complex exercises.

I wanted to add that looking from video what the pros (for eg Ma Long) do can be very deceptive/misleading unless you really, really go into the details (not just looking at the overall stroke path and racket angle, but literally looking at the position of the joints relative to each other). You can have the exact same stroke path as Ma Long but use the wrong mechanisms and/or activation sequence.

From what I understand - the use of the shoulder joint (dipping the shoulder during backswing) in a lot of the modern CNT FH loop is actually driven by the chest muscles - not the waist/core (you can get very bad lower back issues by compressing and twisting your waist - Timo Boll for eg... the waist should simply be kept firm/braced to act as a power conduit). Ma Long used to compress/twist his waist on the FH too but he changed his technique not to do that anymore (I suspect it's injuries too). If you notice Ma Long's waist these days - it's solid as a rock.

The way you use the chest muscles in a TT FH is almost exactly like how you would do a chest fly in the gym or clapping hands - drawing your elbow back (relative to the body) and then rotating it forward anticlockwise. It is a very powerful mechanism that can be quite flexible as well because of the flexibility of the shoulder joint. It doesn't need to be a big movement and can be done quite subtly just to provide an extra boost in power.

 

[blahness]

On the squatting issue, imo only tall players need to squat. What you can actually try out (it worked wonders for me) is to stick your butt out lol. Automatically to maintain balance your knees will be slightly bent and you will be forced to have the correct forward lean. Also when placing weight on the foot - if you place weight on the front foot rather than the rear foot that also ensures that you have this forward lean

 

[pingpongpaddy]

I'm doing both at the same time. I usually start off the practice session with 100-150 service practices. Since I'm focusing on FH right now I then do maybe 2-300 basic FH vs moderate speed/spin topspin shots, ranging from close to the table countering to looping. Then I move on to backspin loop drives and brush loops, maybe 150-200 total. This take quite a bit of time as I'm recording, then reviewing my form, then go back to practice quite often. I take some short water breaks in between, and sometimes watching instructional videos during those breaks.

I usually then do some BH drills to give my FH a break, then after that it depends on my what I figure I need to work on. Yesterday for example I found that I started using my hips less as the practice went on, so I went back to do some more basic FH drills with a focus on rotating my hips. I then adjusted my waist usage a bit to dip my shoulder more, and used that new form to do some more FH drive vs backspin and FH counter loop practices. I also did some half-long drills. I finished the session with some multi-location FH loops and BH loops, but found that my form isn't set enough to do the FH one yet.

[COLOR=RED ]

IMO your suggestion is rushing things a bit. You need to be able to execute a stroke from one spot first before you can move on to multiple spots. Keep in mind that I've only had 2 sessions practicing the new form and I've only decided to set the form yesterday. Multi-location is certainly within the plan, but I'm not ready for it yet. [/COLOR]

by all means go at your pace.
I would just say that its an established coaching method to pair a difficult task with a more basic task, because the one informs the other
Also in asking the forum for Technique advice it would be extremely relevant to show your basic fh development progress and footwork rather than the spectacular shots. Coaches have a nerdish desire for the underlying detail!
But anyway good luck with your project!

 

[dingyibvs]

I wanted to add that looking from video what the pros (for eg Ma Long) do can be very deceptive/misleading unless you really, really go into the details (not just looking at the overall stroke path and racket angle, but literally looking at the position of the joints relative to each other). You can have the exact same stroke path as Ma Long but use the wrong mechanisms and/or activation sequence.

From what I understand - the use of the shoulder joint (dipping the shoulder during backswing) in a lot of the modern CNT FH loop is actually driven by the chest muscles - not the waist/core (you can get very bad lower back issues by compressing and twisting your waist - Timo Boll for eg... the waist should simply be kept firm/braced to act as a power conduit). Ma Long used to compress/twist his waist on the FH too but he changed his technique not to do that anymore (I suspect it's injuries too). If you notice Ma Long's waist these days - it's solid as a rock.

The way you use the chest muscles in a TT FH is almost exactly like how you would do a chest fly in the gym or clapping hands - drawing your elbow back (relative to the body) and then rotating it forward anticlockwise. It is a very powerful mechanism that can be quite flexible as well because of the flexibility of the shoulder joint. It doesn't need to be a big movement and can be done quite subtly just to provide an extra boost in power.

Yeah, I take videos of my motion from the same angle and then compare to ML's frame by frame, utilizing the "spot-the-difference" skills I honed for years in kindergarten 😁

I think ML still uses the waist a lot when he has the chance, but modern game is quicker and closer to the table so he doesn't have as many opportunities to use it. Amateur game is not so fast, and I face heck a lot more brush loops or "brushy" loop drives than I do outright drives, so I should have more opportunities to use it.

As for chest usage, I'm assuming I'm using it, but it's hard to tell. Due to previous weight training with bench press and curls, I can't really feel chest or biceps usage as they're just not strenuous enough in TT.

When it comes to squats, I'm adjusting my usage of it. I think I like your idea of sticking the butt out. I tried it a bit yesterday as I noticed my upper body moving back a bit during some shots. I think this really helps keeping my center of gravity from going backwards when I rotate my hip and waist.

 

[dingyibvs]

by all means go at your pace.
I would just say that its an established coaching method to pair a difficult task with a more basic task, because the one informs the other
Also in asking the forum for Technique advice it would be extremely relevant to show your basic fh development progress and footwork rather than the spectacular shots. Coaches have a nerdish desire for the underlying detail!
But anyway good luck with your project!

Will do! I'll probably be incorporating footwork into my training by next week. I'm gonna keep trying each day to see if I'm ready for it. I'm impatient and really want to move on to the next step as well! When that happens I'll post some videos. I'm thinking that this might be when I start using my return board as well.

The issue with practicing footwork in my garage is that the concrete floor is a bit slippery, so there's a limit in how much I can train my footwork there. And I think the caveat with combining simple and complex exercises is that it's more useful when you have the form down but you need to work on your consistency. That's what I'm doing on the BH side where I have better form after 3 months of training but still crap consistency due to not using my BH for years. On that side I do a combination of 1-2 location exercises as well as 6-7 location exercises mixed in with some FH shots.

 

[blahness]

Yeah, I take videos of my motion from the same angle and then compare to ML's frame by frame, utilizing the "spot-the-difference" skills I honed for years in kindergarten 😁

I think ML still uses the waist a lot when he has the chance, but modern game is quicker and closer to the table so he doesn't have as many opportunities to use it. Amateur game is not so fast, and I face heck a lot more brush loops or "brushy" loop drives than I do outright drives, so I should have more opportunities to use it.

As for chest usage, I'm assuming I'm using it, but it's hard to tell. Due to previous weight training with bench press and curls, I can't really feel chest or biceps usage as they're just not strenuous enough in TT.

When it comes to squats, I'm adjusting my usage of it. I think I like your idea of sticking the butt out. I tried it a bit yesterday as I noticed my upper body moving back a bit during some shots. I think this really helps keeping my center of gravity from going backwards when I rotate my hip and waist.

I would take this (sorry Timo!) 🤣 as an example of problematic waist usage which will really cause lower back issues in the long-term. Michael Maze also has this kind of technique.

If you look at recent Ma Long training against backspin his waist is a lot straighter:

 

[dingyibvs]

View attachment 24516

I would take this (sorry Timo!) 🤣 as an example of problematic waist usage which will really cause lower back issues in the long-term. Michael Maze also has this kind of technique.

If you look at recent Ma Long training against backspin his waist is a lot straighter:

View attachment 24517View attachment 24518

Oh yeah, not Timo level for sure! But his right shoulder still dips a lot lower than mine relative to the left shoulder. Also, his shoulder dip is a different type of shoulder dip compared to Timo's. His is a twisting dip, which is actually the natural action of the obliques. I've seen many people in the gym doing Timo-like shoulder dips to work out their obliques (you know, holding a weight in one hand, let it dip beside the body to about knee level, then lift back up), but that's actually the wrong exercise. The obliques actually rotate your spine in addition to laterally flexing it, like what Ma Long's doing. The correct exercise would've been a cable pull, pulling a weight that's from the upper right toward the lower left across your body, for example. When the spine is flexed, the back muscles contribute to this motion as well. I have to say, the more I try to emulate ML, the more I realize how much sense his movements make.

 

[dingyibvs]

by all means go at your pace.
I would just say that its an established coaching method to pair a difficult task with a more basic task, because the one informs the other
Also in asking the forum for Technique advice it would be extremely relevant to show your basic fh development progress and footwork rather than the spectacular shots. Coaches have a nerdish desire for the underlying detail!
But anyway good luck with your project!

As promised, here's a video of me doing a two-location drill. I was pretty pleased with my single location drill tonight so I decided to try moving onto the two location drill. The setting on the robot is wide FH then to the middle, no random placement, moderate speed and spin, pace 75 balls/min which I think would mimic a practice partner's pace fairly well. I did probably 8-10 sets, with each set about 25-30 balls with frequent video reassessment in between. This was my last set and probably the best set of the session.

I had all sorts of troubles in the beginning. Forgot to turn my hips, forgot to relax the arm, leaned or reached rather than moved my feet, etc. Gradually I adjusted them all, and once I started hitting most shots with the correct form the consistency skyrocketed. I try to hit around 60% power for these types of drills or I'd tire myself out too quickly. I try to finish them with a few 80% power shots which is what I would usually do in a match setting.

Right now it still takes me a couple shots to get into the correct form, so it's not natural for me from the get go yet. Once it becomes natural, hopefully within the next couple of sessions, I'll move on to random drills, then incorporate more variations in location, height, and speed of the ball, random location for where I hit the ball toward, and then add BH and pace variations as well so I can't get into a rhythm.

 

[blahness]

As promised, here's a video of me doing a two-location drill. I was pretty pleased with my single location drill tonight so I decided to try moving onto the two location drill. The setting on the robot is wide FH then to the middle, no random placement, moderate speed and spin, pace 75 balls/min which I think would mimic a practice partner's pace fairly well. I did probably 8-10 sets, with each set about 25-30 balls with frequent video reassessment in between. This was my last set and probably the best set of the session.

I had all sorts of troubles in the beginning. Forgot to turn my hips, forgot to relax the arm, leaned or reached rather than moved my feet, etc. Gradually I adjusted them all, and once I started hitting most shots with the correct form the consistency skyrocketed. I try to hit around 60% power for these types of drills or I'd tire myself out too quickly. I try to finish them with a few 80% power shots which is what I would usually do in a match setting.

Right now it still takes me a couple shots to get into the correct form, so it's not natural for me from the get go yet. Once it becomes natural, hopefully within the next couple of sessions, I'll move on to random drills, then incorporate more variations in location, height, and speed of the ball, random location for where I hit the ball toward, and then add BH and pace variations as well so I can't get into a rhythm.

Damn this is already like Fan Zhendong level power omg.... It's looking really incredible and I wouldn't want to block any of these monster loops haha.

One tip to shorten the backswing time even further (this has many advantages especially against faster balls) - make your elbow closer to the waist during the backswing (it will go out naturally during your swing later on as you have the straight arm FH down). If you look at Fan Zhendong/Ma Long they all have straight arm FH but during the backswing (蓄力) their elbows are very close to the body.

What I found this does, is to reduce your angular inertia so that you can get into the backswing position much faster.

I don't have any other comments, this is already very, very good and you'll go really far with this FH.

 

[dingyibvs]

Damn this is already like Fan Zhendong level power omg.... It's looking really incredible and I wouldn't want to block any of these monster loops haha.

One tip to shorten the backswing time even further (this has many advantages especially against faster balls) - make your elbow closer to the waist during the backswing (it will go out naturally during your swing later on as you have the straight arm FH down). If you look at Fan Zhendong/Ma Long they all have straight arm FH but during the backswing (蓄力) their elbows are very close to the body.

What I found this does, is to reduce your angular inertia so that you can get into the backswing position much faster.

I don't have any other comments, this is already very, very good and you'll go really far with this FH.

Thanks for pointing that out! I did notice that on their loops, but I didn't pay attention to that aspect of my loop at all. I'll give that a try.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

As promised, here's a video of me doing a two-location drill. I was pretty pleased with my single location drill tonight so I decided to try moving onto the two location drill. The setting on the robot is wide FH then to the middle, no random placement, moderate speed and spin, pace 75 balls/min which I think would mimic a practice partner's pace fairly well. I did probably 8-10 sets, with each set about 25-30 balls with frequent video reassessment in between. This was my last set and probably the best set of the session.

I had all sorts of troubles in the beginning. Forgot to turn my hips, forgot to relax the arm, leaned or reached rather than moved my feet, etc. Gradually I adjusted them all, and once I started hitting most shots with the correct form the consistency skyrocketed. I try to hit around 60% power for these types of drills or I'd tire myself out too quickly. I try to finish them with a few 80% power shots which is what I would usually do in a match setting.

Right now it still takes me a couple shots to get into the correct form, so it's not natural for me from the get go yet. Once it becomes natural, hopefully within the next couple of sessions, I'll move on to random drills, then incorporate more variations in location, height, and speed of the ball, random location for where I hit the ball toward, and then add BH and pace variations as well so I can't get into a rhythm.

漂亮。BTW those are some serious thighs and calfs. They mean serious business especially good for TT.

 

[blahness]

漂亮。BTW those are some serious thighs and calfs. They mean serious business especially good for TT.

Yes, when the proper use of the body is made available, a physically strong body like dingyibvs pays a lot of dividends. He's worked hard in the gym and it shows in his shot quality. I've been slacking a lot in my gym training recently and this is kinda inspirational.

 

[dingyibvs]

漂亮。BTW those are some serious thighs and calfs. They mean serious business especially good for TT.

Hah, I've definitely been guilty of skipping leg days lol. I tell myself that I do TT training and play soccer in spring to fall so I don't need it 😏 It's clearly super helpful to have a strong lower body for TT though, so they're really the best exercises to do to improve TT performance.

I try to at least incorporate some TT specific weight exercises described earlier in the thread. I think I'll post a video of that too, as I think it's been super helpful in helping me develop my form and utilize my core better in loops. Im working a 13 hour shift today, so will probably skip TT training today. I'll probably just do a few sets of the weight exercises instead.

 

[NextLevel]

As promised, here's a video of me doing a two-location drill. I was pretty pleased with my single location drill tonight so I decided to try moving onto the two location drill. The setting on the robot is wide FH then to the middle, no random placement, moderate speed and spin, pace 75 balls/min which I think would mimic a practice partner's pace fairly well. I did probably 8-10 sets, with each set about 25-30 balls with frequent video reassessment in between. This was my last set and probably the best set of the session.

I had all sorts of troubles in the beginning. Forgot to turn my hips, forgot to relax the arm, leaned or reached rather than moved my feet, etc. Gradually I adjusted them all, and once I started hitting most shots with the correct form the consistency skyrocketed. I try to hit around 60% power for these types of drills or I'd tire myself out too quickly. I try to finish them with a few 80% power shots which is what I would usually do in a match setting.

Right now it still takes me a couple shots to get into the correct form, so it's not natural for me from the get go yet. Once it becomes natural, hopefully within the next couple of sessions, I'll move on to random drills, then incorporate more variations in location, height, and speed of the ball, random location for where I hit the ball toward, and then add BH and pace variations as well so I can't get into a rhythm.

That's impressive - I can't even pretend to do that.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

HI DINGYIBUS
that seemed quite a well executed drill with right knee and shoulder lining up with the incoming ball.
But I would suggest trying for fh counter at warm up speed for maybe 100 or so balls.
I would be really curious to see you do a basic fh fh practice with a fellow human at warm up. Commonly in such a practice can go a little wide or into the body, and it's a really good test of good moving for both players to keep it going for 5 minutes or so (1 rally).

I am glad to see you are confident to try some moving drills and looking good.
Just remember that its not necessary or useful to only do drills at 100mph

 

[kingkimchi]

I don't want to limit the repliers and I don't want to derail the W968 thread so I'm starting a new thread for people to give me some advice on techniques. I posted some loop vs. backspin videos from yesterday's practice session. Feel free to comment on either the FH or BH technique. I'm linking a second vid, but it basically shows the same thing and was done just a couple mins before the first video.

On the FH side I'm mostly going for what these pros execute many times in the below video (e.g. ML 50s, Mizutani at 4:00, FZD at 10:18, etc.) As mentioned in the W968 thread I'm a bit limited in hip flexibility, but working on improving it. On the BH side I'm just trying to land the shot with some spin.

Your backhand is near perfect, love the stroke although I did notice that after you played the BH loop your hand fell flat down for 1.5secs, therefore giving you less time to react if your opponent returns that ball. For your forehand, you seem like a hitter more than a Ma Long/Jun Mizutani style looper. If you want to achieve your goal of being a looper, I suggest you to change you racket angle, as when you apply force during the loop, the ball will go into the net most of the time. Also, for backspin loops, I recommend you to let the ball drop down a teeny bit before contact. I don't know how to explain this, but it works really well for me, very comfortable feeling.

Hope I helped!

 

[dingyibvs]

HI DINGYIBUS
that seemed quite a well executed drill with right knee and shoulder lining up with the incoming ball.
But I would suggest trying for fh counter at warm up speed for maybe 100 or so balls.
I would be really curious to see you do a basic fh fh practice with a fellow human at warm up. Commonly in such a practice can go a little wide or into the body, and it's a really good test of good moving for both players to keep it going for 5 minutes or so (1 rally).

I am glad to see you are confident to try some moving drills and looking good.
Just remember that its not necessary or useful to only do drills at 100mph

Thanks! When I do warm up hitting I usually just lean or reach for balls that are out of the zone, should I be moving even during warm-ups? I do love to hit fast and hit hard, it took some practice to slow down my swing a bit.

I think I'll try some return board practice next. You really need to control the power and location to get a rally going with the return board, and there's a bit of randomness built in. I had a long shift yesterday, and I'll be working Sat night, so training time has been limited, but I was a bit ahead of schedule moving into 2 location drills so I think the progress is still fine.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks! When I do warm up hitting I usually just lean or reach for balls that are out of the zone, should I be moving even during warm-ups? I do love to hit fast and hit hard, it took some practice to slow down my swing a bit.

I think I'll try some return board practice next. You really need to control the power and location to get a rally going with the return board, and there's a bit of randomness built in. I had a long shift yesterday, and I'll be working Sat night, so training time has been limited, but I was a bit ahead of schedule moving into 2 location drills so I think the progress is still fine.

If you reset your feet during warm ups while looping (whether or not you have to move), it will go a good way towards building footwork habits that will help you in TT since just about every movement requires some kind of hopping to be performed efficiently.

 

[dingyibvs]

If you reset your feet during warm ups while looping (whether or not you have to move), it will go a good way towards building footwork habits that will help you in TT since just about every movement requires some kind of hopping to be performed efficiently.

I do reset my feet for loops, but not for counter hits. I do need to start doing that for service/return/short game practices as well though. I can usually re-loop pretty well, but I often get caught flat footed after a push, especially if the opponent is attacking. Those are bad habits developed when I was entirely reliant on a service/receive/3rd ball attack game, as the point was basically over when the opponent attacks because either he misses or he'd hit a winner.

 

[NextLevel]

I do reset my feet for loops, but not for counter hits. I do need to start doing that for service/return/short game practices as well though. I can usually re-loop pretty well, but I often get caught flat footed after a push, especially if the opponent is attacking. Those are bad habits developed when I was entirely reliant on a service/receive/3rd ball attack game, as the point was basically over when the opponent attacks because either he misses or he'd hit a winner.

That's the main point - when I say reset, sometimes, it is as simply as being ready to move and making sure you are always balanced enough to move. Since you have built out legs, you can probably do a bit more than most of us who have one leg significantly stronger than the other.