the GOAT conversation

[latej]

OK thanks. Then, in my opinion, when Gatien was on form his forehand was the best I've ever seen.

You must have meant the "best". If you meant "beautiful", I'm sure you'd correct to Ma Long. Poetry...

 

[Music&Ping]

Philou was surely not the most beautiful guy to see playing, but that was damn efficient, hence his results in world competitions. Playing 90% of the time FH loops with that old spinny and speedy ball required crazy footwork skills, and strong hips. He's been one the first guys with Rossi, Jean-Mi, and Primo to really work on atheltics, Saive was a total monster at that, I saw him once in a classic Levallois TT vs Charleroi champions league match, his enormous thighs really scared me ! it reminded me those of track cyclists !

It's like comparing Federer and Nadal, Roger is surely the most beautiful tennisman to watch, but we all know Rafa is the most efficient.

 

[kogeh]

It's like comparing Federer and Nadal, Roger is surely the most beautiful tennisman to watch, but we all know Rafa is the most efficient.

As someone who trained tennis for 10 years as a kid this is so wrong on so many levels.

 

[latej]

So many most beautiful FHs. Too many to mention and each of them even more most beautiful than the last. Perhaps they are more most beautifulestest.

The G in GOAT has this aura of objectivity, because so many things must be taken to consideration, before you even attempt to spell one. But worse then is it's exclusivity, because only one can be the GOAT, which is unjust to all the others.

That's why I prefer to pick 1 small aspect, and ideally absolutely subjective one. Beautiful is totally subjective, everyone has different aesthetics. And you can be totally convinced that you are right while knowing that it is also totally fair.

That said, I had expected that your aesthetics feeling is much more strictly defined, Carl

 

[zeio]

I will date myself with this:

I think Marty Reisman was GOAT. hahahaha.

No, for real, I think an interesting topic is certain great players like Primorac or Korbel who really were amazing and just never turned on the gas in the WTTC singles or Olympic singles and so, are not remembered for being quite as great as they were.

Oh Seung Eun falls into this category as well. Wang Hao came very close to falling into that category as well. They called him Mr Silver for how many times he came in second in major tournaments. Also the Ma Long Killer since he knocked Ma Long out of the WTTC Singles tournament 3 consective times in the semi-finals (2009, 2011, 2013).

That reminds me of Waldner's interview. He doesn't count the World Cup as a major title. Going by that, then Rosskopf, KTS(lost to Ma Wenge and Rosskopf in finals of World Cup 1992 and 1998 but beat KLH and LGL to win Asian Games 1998, his only singles title), Samsonov, Boll, Ovtcharov, XX, FZD et al. are underachievers.

https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=11881

Which of your opponents have underachieved relative to capacity and talent?
Primmen (Zoran Primorac) comes to mind immediately if you think about those who have not won anything. He really should have won something as good as he was for a while during his career. Andrzej Grubba was also incredibly good, but didn’t win a major title.
...
No Europeans? Jean-Michel Saive? Tibor Klampar? Jean-Phillipe Gatien?
No, none of them. Saive and Klampar did not even win any major titles.

 

[yogi_bear]

Although JOW is my favorite, Ma Long is the GOAt, imo.

 

[zeio]

FWIW, best FH, BH, serve and so on by CNT and JNT players.

And why "most decorated" and "greatest of all time" do not mix, if you have spare time to waste.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...R-IN-THE-WORLD&p=333454&viewfull=1#post333454
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...-long-the-GOAT&p=273443&viewfull=1#post273443

Posting the following for future reference. LGL's emphasis on the success rate for youngsters in the majors after World Cup 2010, how losing all the time after numerous attempts could result in PTSD and adverse effect on results in majors.

http://www.ctta.cn/xwzx/ppxw/2010/1111/98887.html
https://sports.qq.com/a/20101112/001366.htm

刘国梁：马龙信心好转 年轻人关键是大赛成功率
2010-11-11 14:45

　　华奥星空广州11月11日电 (记者 张矣韵)今天上午，中国男乒进行了来到广州的首次训练，此前有脚伤的马龙已经基本恢复正常，“最近状态不错，热身赛没有输球，脚上也敢跑了，信心有所好转。”主教练刘国梁说。

　　自从在乒超比赛中脚受伤后，马龙便陷入了不佳的状态，先是退出苏州公开赛，而后他领衔的夺冠最大热门浙商银行也半决赛脆败给八一，全国锦标赛上，他0-4便完败给翟一鸣，随后的男子世界杯又被张继科换下。

　　前段时间，刘国梁在谈及马龙时曾说过诸如“人怂了球再好也没有”“亚运会名额分分钟可能被拿下”的“狠话”，刘国梁坦言，“一方面是为了刺激马龙，给他施加点压力。另外我们对他投资很大，期望值也很高，他能不能起来，接下来的比赛，明年上半年的世锦赛非常重要。奥运会报名相对比较早，他排名靠前，平时一般的比赛可以给一些机会锻炼，到奥运会我们就不能拿任何人来锻炼了，从心理上来说他得能过这个坎。”

　　与此同时，和他同属一批队员的张继科在今年表现不错，莫斯科世乒赛在半决赛和决赛中赢球，力克王励勤马琳夺得中国公开赛男单冠军，带领山东鲁能拿下乒超冠军，全国锦标赛上更是过关斩将，第二次封王。正是这一系列的表现，张继科赢得了教练组的信任，从而代替马龙参加世界杯单打，最终负于王皓获得亚军。

　　“世界杯张继科换马龙，一方面我们是要保护马龙，他脚上有伤，不能比赛过多，第二也是给张继科一些机会，毕竟他和欧亚强手打得少，从来没有参加过单打比赛。”刘国梁说，“这次能打进决赛，我觉得是他的真实水平。但决赛进的也磕磕绊绊，小组赛第一场输给庄智渊，半决赛跟水谷隼0-3落后，他和王皓综合实力还有差距，所以年轻队员一般性的比赛不错，但缺乏大赛经验和成功率。”

　　“这一年来张继科有所进步，原来马龙的位置靠前，现在张继科起来后两人各有优势，他们性格、风格都有不同，就看谁能在大赛中表现。我跟他们说，大赛机会你们都不会缺，关键是大赛的成功率，这个更关键，机会多但总失败，成心理阴影，反而对大赛的成绩不利，对他们年轻运动员来说，就看怎么好好把握。”刘国梁说。(完）

 

[Manto76]

"most decorated" and "greatest of all time" do not mix

Agreed. The Americans have an excellent word for the former: Winningest!

Without question Ma Long is the WOAT!
Personally, I'll still shout for Waldner as the GOAT though.

 

[jmhuang1154]

Waldner was probably the most overrated player in table tennis history. He was inconsistent and consistency is the hallmark of the truly greats

 

[Lazer]

I can agree that there are two different era's but the game on top level today i believe is FASTER than it was before. But there is less spin involved. Where did all the defensive players go? Is there a secret hangout for them???
When the ball changed the spin was taken away the players have no option but evolve a faster to keep their edge. The Chinese players has evolved this into perfection.

I prefer the old game where spin counted...

Cheers
L-zr

 

[jmhuang1154]

most defenders realized that they can rarely win titles in modern table tennis albeit the poly ball may have slowed down hence the defenders modified their game style to become more attacking

 

[Lazer]

most defenders realized that they can rarely win titles in modern table tennis albeit the poly ball may have slowed down hence the defenders modified their game style to become more attacking

Exactly, that is due to the lack of spin...
And because speed counts more, the game on average got quicker...