The Never Ending Tragedy - Ma Long vs Hao

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Yep, and two things I notice in this match. First, Zhang Jike is not freaking out because he is losing. And second, Zhang Jike does not use any of those tactics that Wang Hao uses on Ma Long. His pushes are way to high and too long, and he is serving over and over again straight to Ma Long's backhand side. The first time I ever saw Zhang Jike seem to have Ma Long figured out was in Kuwait.

I already posted the full match. Here is the short version. In this match he is keeping his pushes much shorter and he is using that reverse serve very short to the middle and the forehand side. He is also Zhang Jike so I think he wants to go toe to toe with him in those rallies. Wang Hao was happy to let Ma Long beat himself much more than Zhang Jike did. But it looks from this, to me, that Zhang Jike, for the first time had an answer to the question of how to beat Ma Long. Even when he beat Ma Long in the past it was a hard fought battle where there was no real edge. This was the first time I can remember that Zhang Jike broke Ma Long's game down and got him really frustrated to the point where he falls apart.


Respect to Zhang Jike, in the 2012 Asian Championsips video that sherif_ry2 posted, Zhang Jike did not fall apart when he was getting his ass whooped. Someone somewhere along the line has said that a real champion has to know how to lose gracefully too.
 
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I just watched the Wang Hao Ma Long match a few times.

If you watch, over and over again, Wang Hao is using that reverse serve to Ma Long's forehand and keeping it short and really low. Ma Long cannot attack it so he is trying to push it. But his push with his forehand is not so good and he really cannot handle that reverse serve. He pops so many of them up. A lot of the time when Ma Long serves Wang Hao pushes really short to Ma Long's forehand too. Same basic result although Ma Long is better at pushing against a push than against that reverse serve. And then, Ma Long starts trying to open on those balls that are too short for him to take a big swing on his forehand and he really misses a lot of those.

That is tactics.

That is keeping those pushes short, low and at a place where Ma Long is temped to take them with his forehand but actually cannot. When they go to his backhand he is okay at handling them because he can actually take them over the table. But, he is really looking to get his forehand off and neglecting the opportunities to open with his backhand.

I also watched the match from the Finals of the Kuwait Open where Zhang Jike beat Ma Long 4-1. Zhang Jike does the same exact thing to Ma Long as what Wang Hao does. The one difference I see in that match, when Ma Long does get off his huge forehand to open while close to the table, Zhang Jike is usually there and responds with a counter loop. It is a very short stroke but it has all of Ma Long's power and he gives it right back to Ma Long, who is usually not ready for his giant forehand to come back. He is often not even set for a next shot when Zhang Jike rips Ma Long's forehand back.

Here: have a look:


Before this match, I had never seen Zhang Jike have a real answer to Ma Long's relentless attack. My money says he watched what Wang Hao has done and learned to keep those serves extra short to Ma Long's forehand and realized how much trouble he actually has with the reverse spin when he is trying to take it with his forehand.

This comes from that practice Liu Gouliang has them do where they are trying to serve under the racket and get the ball to land really close to the net.


And it also comes from learning to push really short where you take the ball right off the bounce and just touch it over the net so it barely gets over and does not bounce very high at all. Very hard to do and you must have really good touch, footwork and anticipation to do it consistently in a match. But that is what Wang Hao did to control the game and keep Ma Long from launching his huge forehand attacks.
hi Carl. good analysis, I was at the semi final and you could see ma long really struggling with the short serve to forehand/middle, Wang every now and again would put in a fast serve to ma longs backhand to stop him coming round and playing the jike backhand from forehand recieve.I would say 90% of the crowd wanted ma long to win.I felt zhang or ma would win, zhang reminds me of waldner in the sense when it is big time he always comes through... Also ma longs kit in the semi!! not the most professional look Zhang looked mean in his black Chinese kit, wang the flashing red but ma long looked like he had run out of gear and just stuck what was left in his suitcase..Karma or positive vibes looking good etc etc Anyway I thought ma had gotten over his mental probs but he played really really poor those first 3 games..I felt zhang would win as his receive is slightly better than wangs this proved to be decisive in a very technical game, he also caught ot wang manty times to crossover Zhang has an aura and when he lashed fan and xu most people felt he would win
 
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I agree, he sure does break out heart on quite a few occasions :)

Its quite really sad.. when i see him losing.. I was full of tears , when i came to know he lost to Wang Hao .. :(

It was like my dream see him wining this tournament. He was also not selected in Olympics , his bad luck. This time also things dint went as they should have been.
 
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Its quite really sad.. when i see him losing.. I was full of tears , when i came to know he lost to Wang Hao .. :(

It was like my dream see him wining this tournament. He was also not selected in Olympics , his bad luck. This time also things dint went as they should have been.


once again let me remind you that it wasnt bad luck. LGL had no option but to put ZJK and WH in the olympics. Its really crazy how people are making excuses because they love ma long so much.
 
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I just watched the match again and cannot agree more with UpSideDownCarl
You can see a similar pattern for 90% of Wang Hao's points (at least in the first 3 games and the last one):
1- Wang Hao serves short to Ma Long's forehand, he pushes long (or totally misses) and Wang Hao attacks
--> point goes to Wang Hao
2- Wang Hao pushes Ma Long to turn around and go for a forehand from his backhand side then a RPB down the line
--> point goes to Wang Hao
3- Wang Hao serves short to Ma Long's forehand, he tries to return with this backhand, Wang Hao places the ball in his deep
backhand, Ma Long is not quick enough to recover and misses
--> point goes to Wang Hao

This was the story of the 1/2 final, smart play by Wang Hao.
As I said before, Ma Long will have trouble with the younger generation coming but he will also get more mature and be aggressive only when appropriate and plan for each match and improve his short play, just like Wang Hao. At least I hope so!

 
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He was also not selected in Olympics , his bad luck. This time also things dint went as they should have been.

I posted this yesterday, but I will post it again. Read it. It explains why Ma Long did not qualify to play in the 2011 Olympics. It was not that he was not picked. There was no possibility of a decision. Ma Long did not qualify to play in the singles event because Wang Hao qualified 1st and Zhang Jike qualified for the 2nd spot. Only the first and second qualifiers for any country were able to play in the Olympics. Ma Long only qualified to play in the team event. There was no way of changing that. The rules for qualification were set by the Olympic Committee and the ITTF. If China tried to take Zhang Jike or Wang Hao out, they would have had to only have one player in the singles and no team. If they had tried to fake an injury to put Ma Long in in place of WH or ZJK, the Olympic Committee's doctors would have examined the player and determined that the Chinese National Team was breaking the rules and trying to fake an injury. Nothing short of a real medical reason, verified by doctors from the Olympic Committee, would have allowed Ma Long to take the place of Wang Hao or Zhang Jike. And that medical issue would have had to be present and reported before the start of the tournament. Trying to fake an injury could have gotten the player disqualified and perhaps all Chinese players disqualified.

It was not that Ma Long did not get picked to play in the Olympic singles event. Liu Gouliang had no choice in this matter. Ma Long DID NOT QUALIFY TO PLAY IN THE OLYMPIC SINGLES EVENT. I wish he had. But each country could only have 2 players in the singles event. The first 2 to qualify would qualify for singles.


After the first two, a country could have a third player qualify for team and then they could have one player qualify as an alternate.


The first part of qualifications were the world rankings after the 2011 WTTC. I think it was May 2011. If a country had players in the top 28, the top 2 spots could qualify. If there was only one player in the top 28, only one player from that country could qualify this way.


The first to qualify was Wang Hao. I believe Timo was ranked 1 and Wang H was 2. Zhang Jike, after winning the 2011 WTTC, was ranked 3 and was the second highest ranked player from China. Ma Lin was 4 and Ma Long was 5.

[{EDIT} I looked in May 2011 Wang Hao was #1, Timo Boll was #2, Zhang Jike was #3, Ma Lin was #4 and Ma Long was #5.]


So, because Wang Hao and Zhang Jike were ranked higher than Ma Long in the rankings directly following the 2011 WTTC, those two qualified 1st and 2nd and NOBODY BUT THOSE TWO COULD HAVE PLAYED IN THE OLYMPIC SINGLES EVENT FOR CHINA.


In the Asian Olympic trial tournament Ma Long qualified to play in the team event BUT HE WAS NOT ELIGIBLE TO PLAY IN THE SINGLES BECAUSE WANG HAO AND ZHANG JIKE HAD ALREADY TAKEN THOSE TWO SPOTS.


Again, MA LONG DID NOT QUALIFY TO PLAY IN THE SINGLES EVENT FOR CHINA.


He did not hit world ranking of #1 until 3 or 4 months too late.


I think the system was lame. But nobody decided to not choose him. He simply did not qualify. At the time Ma Lin would have qualified ahead of him. Ma Long was the #4 ranked player from China. He only could have qualified if he had been# 1 or 2 for China.


Sort of bad luck since he was coming off an injury which caused him to drop in the rankings.
 
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Not that much. He needs more money if he will finance his whole life through his tabletennis career

lol I dont think he relies only on his TT career to finance his whole life. As far as I know elder people in china dont get pension so they rely on their kids and he has to take care of his family also. Ma Long earns even more money from sponsors , after he retires from the chinese national team he can be a coach, earning a lot of money, he can join a european club earning even more money from sponsors etc. Kreanga, Saive Persson and Waldner play quality table tennis in their 40's Ma long can do this also. His future is pretty secure I think as long as he doesnt gamble, starts using drugs or spendin all his money to women.

But I dont think he will do something like that he is too smart to make such stupid mistakes :p
 
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Respect to Zhang Jike, in the 2012 Asian Championsips video that sherif_ry2 posted, Zhang Jike did not fall apart when he was getting his ass whooped. Someone somewhere along the line has said that a real champion has to know how to lose gracefully too.

To lose gracefully with no shaking hands after the match you mean? :p
 
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To lose gracefully with no shaking hands after the match you mean? :p

Yeah, Zhang Jike is not always the best sport.

I don't think Zhang Jike meant anything against Ma Long the time he did that. I think, in that match, he got his ass whooped and did not lose all that gracefully. But, I think he did not shake Ma Long's hand because he was freaking out and stopped paying attention to what was going on in the real world. I do think he is a bit crazy and not the best model of behavior.
 
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Just see Ma long's matches against Wang Hao in the semi-final of WTTCs. In 2011 WTTC Ma Long was deserved to be in the final but Wang Hao won so many points by edge balls and net balls (4 or 5 points per game). In the 4th set when Ma Long was 10:9 in the lead Wang Hao won a point because of a pig edge ball. Every single time i see this match i get so angry. If Wang hao was not that lucky Ma Long had won that match and in the semi final of 2013 WTTC he would not get mentally destroyed and had won the match and would by in the final. I'm so angry now :mad:
 
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After all edge and net is part of the game. Ma Long did win the second set by an edge anyway. Wang Hao won 4:2 at the end and I see nothing serious like 4 or 5 per game. He simply play better that day and won.


Look back in WTTC history Ma Long participated in 4 of them since 2007. Three ended by Wang Hao (2009 4:1, 2011 4:2 and 2013 4:2) and one by Joo Saehyuk (2007 4:2). Not even close to winning once. Ma Long is a great and solid player, there is no denial about that. So no wonder all those results upset and puzzled many of his fans. Looking forward to Pro Tour final next month. Hope to see some serious competition and no more excuses this time.
 
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After all edge and net is part of the game. Ma Long did win the second set by an edge anyway. Wang Hao won 4:2 at the end and I see nothing serious like 4 or 5 per game. He simply play better that day and won.


Look back in WTTC history Ma Long participated in 4 of them since 2007. Three ended by Wang Hao (2009 4:1, 2011 4:2 and 2013 4:2) and one by Joo Saehyuk (2007 4:2). Not even close to winning once. Ma Long is a great and solid player, there is no denial about that. So no wonder all those results upset and puzzled many of his fans. Looking forward to Pro Tour final next month. Hope to see some serious competition and no more excuses this time.
No more discussion about 3rd and 4th sets. But you will be agree with me about 5th set. Wang Hao won 5 points but edge or net balls in that set. If Wang Hao was not that lucky Ma Long was going to win that set. After Ma Long lost the 5th because of Wang Hao's lucky points, Wang Hao gained confidence and played so much better in the last set. Wang Hao played so much better but he won the 6th set 11:9. If Ma Long has the luck of Wang Hao or at least Wang hao was not so luck in the 5th set, Ma Long was surely be in the final.
 
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