TT Myth Busters

[Pnachtwey]

Here, we get back to Pnatchwey's favorite ploy. He is disputing the language, rather than the effect of the change made by manufacturers.


1) Pnatchwey agrees that when you stretch the sponge and keep the topsheet stuck to it that this curled up effect produces tension in the topsheet.

Yes but my T05 doesn't come curled and if it did so what? See below.

2) When a similar effect is obtained by stretching the topsheet and inserting compounds to keep it stretched, he argues that other rubbers which do not have these compounds are operating under similar principles anyway so therefore, there is no tension in the topsheet.

The speed glue expands the sponge. So what? See below.

3) When you put air into the underlying sponge, making the sponge bouncier and increasing the levels of spin and speed because of the sponge's increased ability to be compressed, the fact that it isn't really tension makes it the tension fairy.

Yes, big air bubbles in the sponge will make it bouncier. I have said this before that the trick to making a good sponge is to have relatively large bubbles in the sponge but the bubbles must be of consistent size and distribution throughout the sponge. This has two benefits. It makes the sponge lighter so when the sponge expands after being compressed, less energy is used to expand the sponge and more can be transferred to the ball. Second, air compresses and returns its energy extremely well. It is used in industry all the time.

But, the rubbers the TT manufacturers sell you are not tensioned. These examples you mention are what you are doing to the sponge after you buy it. Now look below.

And then, to cap it all off, Pnatchwey claims he can loop just as well with Mark V as with Tenergy 05. Well, since he can't loop, that explains that. In the end, it's just another way of saying that we should defer to his inability to be anything other than autistic in his use of language. I wish it made him a better table tennis player but thank God for small mercies.

I can loop with Reflectoid if I have to. It just takes more effort.

I said in a previous post that tension is irrelevant and gave an example of tensioning play dough. Just because something is tensioned doesn't mean it is elastic.

Now look through the documents I mentioned. Where do they mention tension? Tension is not used in the formulas for calculating spin and speed after impact. Tension is irrelevant. Elasticity is important. Do the TT manufacturers mention elasticity? No. About, throw, throw angle, throw distance etc. Do the documents use throw in their documents? No. You all just make up myths to explain what you don't understand because you are ignorant.

All of you can say I am a jerk for reminding you how ignorant you are. The only difference between me and the TT manufacturers in this regard is that I will tell you to your face but the TT manufactures still think you all are ignorant by continuing their misleading, false and fraudulent adds. At least I am an honest jerk and after all the sh!t I have taken I really like to take every opportunity to remind you how ignorant you are.

I don't see why NextLevel and UpsideDownCarl insist on remaining ignorant. That goes for a lot of the rest of you.
NextLevel, you better hope an employer never sees this thread.

At least Der Echte is coming around.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

But, the rubbers the TT manufacturers sell you are not tensioned.

I said in a previous post that tension is irrelevant and gave an example of tensioning play dough. Just because something is tensioned doesn't mean it is elastic.

Now look through the documents I mentioned. Where do they mention tension? Tension is not used in the formulas for calculating spin and speed after impact. Tension is irrelevant. Elasticity is important. Do the TT manufacturers mention elasticity? No.

Okay. I actually think this is good info. So the vulcanizing that the TT manufacturers are calling high tension or tensor is actually just a process that makes the rubber more elastic so that, when you make contact with the ball, the ball sinks in batter, is grabbed better and the rubber rebounds better.

I've never really cared one way or other about whether the better rubbers have a topsheet that is under tension or not.

In the end this still issue still boils down to semantics. For some reason, after the speed glue ban, TT companies decided to use the term "tension" to indicate rubbers that have been made highly elsastic to attempt to duplicate the speed glue effect. Perhaps this had to do with a popular conception that the reason speed glue worked was that it put the topsheet under tension.

I've never been exactly sure why something that expands the sponge causes a rubber to play with more spin and more control. But when you boost a rubber it seems to do that. And that effect still lasts for a while after the doming of the rubber has subsided. Particularly if the sponge is still larger than it started out. But, even if the sponge does not shrink back, at a certain point the effect of the booster wears off.

All this being said, I am going to leave alone the subject of looping because it seems a silly subject. It really doesn't matter to me. I know how to loop. I know how to counter loop. And I am entertained when I play a 2600 level player like Michael Landers, who in my opinion is super cool and an awesome guy. I mean, how many 2600+ players play with someone over 600 points lower just because they are friends. And one thing he said to me that makes me laugh is: "Sometimes your shots have so much spin! And sometimes they are totally flat!" There are many ways to hit a dead ball. If you want to see some of the art of this, just watch Richard Dewitt play.


Sent from GroundZero from my NanoWeaponOfMassDestruction

 

[Der_Echte]

The overuse of the word tension and the trademark of TENSOR are marketed aggressively and like the bunch of gullible sheep a collective public can be, they follow right along.

It isn't just the TT industry with rubbers, it is just about every business industry you can name. Within the TT industry, it is the blades too with the false representation of weight, yeah, it is the measured weight, but it is empty in many regards. ditto fo the model used in sponsoring, if BTY sponsors all the top pros, then amatures must think their products are the best stuff.

I would rather sponsor players like Abe Gold and Sherryl Barvie-Perez, who are improving amature players who will never make the national team, let alone become the top amature athletes around. What these two, and potentially other players have is LEADERSHIP. Abe's friends know he loves TT and know it is fun for him, plus he wears a sharp uniform and has a lot of great stories. He got 20% of his school to tryout for TT team. That is the kind of stuff that will get more players in the sport and make it better for everyone.

 

[NextLevel]

Okay. I actually think this is good info. So the vulcanizing that the TT manufacturers are calling high tension or tensor is actually just a process that makes the rubber more elastic so that, when you make contact with the ball, the ball sinks in batter, is grabbed better and the rubber rebounds better.

I've never really cared one way or other about whether the better rubbers have a topsheet that is under tension or not.

In the end this still issue still boils down to semantics. For some reason, after the speed glue ban, TT companies decided to use the term "tension" to indicate rubbers that have been made highly elsastic to attempt to duplicate the speed glue effect. Perhaps this had to do with a popular conception that the reason speed glue worked was that it put the topsheet under tension.

I've never been exactly sure why something that expands the sponge causes a rubber to play with more spin and more control. But when you boost a rubber it seems to do that. And that effect still lasts for a while after the doming of the rubber has subsided. Particularly if the sponge is still larger than it started out. But, even if the sponge does not shrink back, at a certain point the effect of the booster wears off.

All this being said, I am going to leave alone the subject of looping because it seems a silly subject. It really doesn't matter to me. I know how to loop. I know how to counter loop. And I am entertained when I play a 2600 level player like Michael Landers, who in my opinion is super cool and an awesome guy. I mean, how many 2600+ players play with someone over 600 points lower just because they are friends. And one thing he said to me that makes me laugh is: "Sometimes your shots have so much spin! And sometimes they are totally flat!" There are many ways to hit a dead ball. If you want to see some of the art of this, just watch Richard Dewitt play.


Sent from GroundZero from my NanoWeaponOfMassDestruction

But this is precisely the problem that makes Pnatchwey a bit dumber than he realizes.

He is willing to say that when the topsheet is stretched, it is under tension as speedglue expands the sponge. Think of the topsheet in this case as a rubber band that is stretched and held into position by the sponge being expanded.

Yet when chemicals put into the topsheet are used to perform this same stretching, Pnatchwey argues that the term tension is misused. Note I never said anything about speed glue. He assumed that I was mentioning speed glue. If we were simply making the rubber more elastic and there was no tension involved, the question is why the rubber does not continue to be elastic in perpetuity. MAnufacturers also made topsheets thinner, so they would be easier to deform. Most traditional rubbers have thicker topsheets than we see today, and that is one source of more tension in modern topsheets.

And let's assume that the TT manufacturers are ultimately misusing the word tension in the same way that everyday people misuse the word policemen by applying it to both men and women, or movies where the pictures are not really in motion, or so many other innumerable examples of language being transformed by analogy, what does this prove? That language is flexible.

In the end, I will just say that acting like the TT companies are lying or brainwashing people is really ridiculous. If the word used for the speed glue effect had been that the chemicals added improve elasticity, would Pnatchwey's argument hold?

And I get why Der Echte, who is convinced that he plays as well with a sheet of XP 2008 as he does with FX-P may argue this. Let's just say that there are many who do not and for good reason too.

 

[Der_Echte]

I play MUCH better with FX-P on FH than XP2008, but on BH wing I will be same level with either.

I am with NL and Carl when they are saying it doesn't really matter at the user level whatever you call it or not, certain rubber and blade combos offer this or that advantage over others. When you play with a certain rubber that is within the zone of suitability, you adjust to the differences and play well using the stuff. You can tell when your rubber/sponge has gassed out and is giving you what it gave before.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I have money that says Der_Echte's BH will be lethal with Elpis or 2008XP but that it would be MORE lethal with FX-P or T05FX.

Does he need those rubbers? Clearly not. Would he get a bit more pop if he used them? I think he probably would.

But we probably will never know. Because the last time I tried to give him one of those rubbers with the stipulation that he had to use it on his BH, he done gone and pulled the wool over my eyes and used for FH instead.

My money says, even if the first fix is free, he doesn't want to get hooked and have to spend all that money just for a BH rubber when, for years, he got away a sheet that cost $8.00 and lasted him 2+ years.

Okay, I never tried to give Der_Echte a BH rubber. But I bet that would have been what happened if I did.

Hey, is that Michael Landers over there? Gotta go!

Sent from GroundZero from my NanoWeaponOfMassDestruction

 

[NextLevel]

I play MUCH better with FX-P on FH than XP2008, but on BH wing I will be same level with either.

I am with NL and Carl when they are saying it doesn't really matter at the user level whatever you call it or not, certain rubber and blade combos offer this or that advantage over others. When you play with a certain rubber that is within the zone of suitability, you adjust to the differences and play well using the stuff. You can tell when your rubber/sponge has gassed out and is giving you what it gave before.

Cheap azz mofo... I dig ur style...

 

[Der_Echte]

I would agree with you if you said FX-P or T64.

I wouldn't get much more pace at the table with whatever I use on BH, a TT ball can physically only travel so fast. I think with either of those two rubbers, I will more spin to go with my good pace on BH. Those two rubbers would help away from the table for sure, but I do not spend a lot of time making BH shots away from the table, usually my BH is employed close to table. Occasionally, I will be forced to make a desperation BH attack from distance, otherwise you dont see me ripping BH shots away from table.

Say, is that Abe and his new school TT FB Page over there ??? https://www.facebook.com/HunterTTC

 

[Der_Echte]

and actually Carl, XP 2008 would last me much longer than 2-3 months (300 HRS) but i would change it out as I had a lot of players asking me for a sheet of the stuff for free, so I would strike a compromise and give them my old, but still very serviceable sheet, I would slap on a new sheet, and they would have to buy me a beer after TT.

 

[Der_Echte]

Cheap azz mofo... I dig ur style...

For years I purposely used XP 2008 to be able to spend more money on a top rate FH rubber and over the years, I got good at using a control rubber on BH.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I think I said 2+ years, but, I know, that was really the Aurus. [emoji2]

Those $8.00 sheets, already 2/3 used up got you a lot of beer in Korea.

Pulled out my Kim Jung Hoon. Landers wanted something for feeding multiball with that didn't have brand new rubbers like his blade. Then I hit with it after. That blade plays really well.


Sent from GroundZero from my NanoWeaponOfMassDestruction

 

[Pnachtwey]

But this is precisely the problem that makes Pnatchwey a bit dumber than he realizes.

He is willing to say that when the topsheet is stretched, it is under tension as speedglue expands the sponge. Think of the topsheet in this case as a rubber band that is stretched and held into position by the sponge being expanded.

Yet when chemicals put into the topsheet are used to perform this same stretching, Pnatchwey argues that the term tension is misused.

Read again. Find the quote. Yes the rubber is stretched. There is a difference between how much the rubber and sponge stretches which is why the rubber domes when I speed glue it. It domes a less with paraffin oil.

Note I never said anything about speed glue. He assumed that I was mentioning speed glue. If we were simply making the rubber more elastic and there was no tension involved, the question is why the rubber does not continue to be elastic in perpetuity.

I mentioned paraffin oil and speed glue to cover the bases and I have used both. The effects are similar but speed glue is more extreme.
It is the gas bubble that compresses and release energy. Look on YouTube for videos of people running into each other hold beach balls. Air is very springy. What I don't know is why the volatile fumes may be even more springy than air. There are only few constants to compare like the gas constant and specific heat. In any case any gas in the sponge bubbles that is above air pressure will soon equalize by diffusing through the sponge and everything will return to normal.

There was a device shown on another forum where one put the whole paddle in it a pressurized it. This would in theory do the same thing as boosting if the the device could pressurize the paddle with a volatile gas. It seems like hassle to me.

MAnufacturers also made topsheets thinner, so they would be easier to deform. Most traditional rubbers have thicker topsheets than we see today, and that is one source of more tension in modern topsheets.

Yes, but it is the snap back that counts. If the top sheet snaps back maintaining contact with the ball then more of the energy that the ball put into the rubber will be returned. The deformation alone is not enough.

And let's assume that the TT manufacturers are ultimately misusing the word tension in the same way that everyday people misuse the word policemen by applying it to both men and women, or movies where the pictures are not really in motion, or so many other innumerable examples of language being transformed by analogy, what does this prove? That language is flexible.

The term is misleading. The TT manufacturers should be saying their rubbers are highly elastic but then there would be a demand for relative CORs. The TT manufacturers don't want that when the CORs of the top rubbers are pretty much the same and there is an upper limit.

In the end, I will just say that acting like the TT companies are lying or brainwashing people is really ridiculous.

They fooled you.

If the word used for the speed glue effect had been that the chemicals added improve elasticity, would Pnatchwey's argument hold?

Yes. However, my experiences with the Dawei speed glue is that it doesn't help that much.

I think it is clear I know much more about this topic than you do. I have many more practical industrial applications under my belt where myths don't work. Keep posting if you want more abuse. Read up first so you can at least make intelligent statements.

 

[BeGo]

Here is a terribly, terribly exciting video of me blocking against level 30 Newgy topspin with a stationary racket. You guys can make your own decisions about how heavy the spin actually is.

Waldner in vacation ????

Sent from my T1X Plus using Tapatalk

 

[NextLevel]

Read again. Find the quote. Yes the rubber is stretched. There is a difference between how much the rubber and sponge stretches which is why the rubber domes when I speed glue it. It domes a less with paraffin oil.


I mentioned paraffin oil and speed glue to cover the bases and I have used both. The effects are similar but speed glue is more extreme.
It is the gas bubble that compresses and release energy. Look on YouTube for videos of people running into each other hold beach balls. Air is very springy. What I don't know is why the volatile fumes may be even more springy than air. There are only few constants to compare like the gas constant and specific heat. In any case any gas in the sponge bubbles that is above air pressure will soon equalize by diffusing through the sponge and everything will return to normal.

There was a device shown on another forum where one put the whole paddle in it a pressurized it. This would in theory do the same thing as boosting if the the device could pressurize the paddle with a volatile gas. It seems like hassle to me.


Yes, but it is the snap back that counts. If the top sheet snaps back maintaining contact with the ball then more of the energy that the ball put into the rubber will be returned. The deformation alone is not enough.


The term is misleading. The TT manufacturers should be saying their rubbers are highly elastic but then there would be a demand for relative CORs. The TT manufacturers don't want that when the CORs of the top rubbers are pretty much the same and there is an upper limit.


They fooled you.


Yes. However, my experiences with the Dawei speed glue is that it doesn't help that much.

I think it is clear I know much more about this topic than you do. I have many more practical industrial applications under my belt where myths don't work. Keep posting if you want more abuse. Read up first so you can at least make intelligent statements.

It's clear to anyone reading this topic that you don't know more about this topic than I do because you lack the level of TT expertise to discuss it intelligently. You can't loop, so you can't evaluate the differences between speed glue effect rubbers and traditional rubbers. I can evaluate the differences in rubbers just by using them - I don't need CORs to test what a good loop stroke can reveal. So you are the one who knows nothing and needs numbers to tell you what a good stroke reveals. A pity you can't fix that.

I just revealed that you have been saying they fooled you because you think that other people don't understand English - but we do. You are the one who says that equipment lack power because power has a definition in physics that is not the same as the definition in table tennis. Let's just let it go because the level of rigid thinking that reveals is ridiculous. You could only be hired for anything the required computers - humans are more flexible than that.

 

[Pnachtwey]

Ok, so you want make this personal instead about the myths. I am game.

It's clear to anyone reading this topic that you don't know more about this topic than I do because you lack the level of TT expertise to discuss it intelligently.

Again you show your stupidity. You think that just because you play TT better than me you know more about physics? I think I have disproved that many times now. You still believe in the tension fairy. Engineers and physicist don't believe in the tension fairy.

About playing better than me. How would you know? We haven't played. Again you lie and just make up your own facts.
You forget. I have seen your videos. I am very good at analyzing things and finding weakness. I know where my coaches weaknesses are. How about you? I would say not. When Heavyspin wanted to become a chopper you just went along. I was the only one one the forum said Heavyspin should stick to double inverted. I took a lot of flak for that comment. However, Heavyspin's coach said the same thing. Funny how Heavyspin came back to double inverted. If you know so much why didn't you agree with me? It is simple. You don't know so much. You only have opinions and your superstitions. Your batting average is very low. You know nothing about tension or chopping. I wouldn't say I know a lot about chopping but like I said, I am very good at analyzing and determining what works and what doesn't. That doesn't take a computer, just common sense and a deep understanding of how things work.

You can't loop, so you can't evaluate the differences between speed glue effect rubbers and traditional rubbers.

I can loop. You are just blind and see what you want to see.
You wouldn't know a good loop if you saw one. I saw your lame loop video where you bounce a ball and hit it.
I admit, I am not a calibrated machine. I can't tell how much better the speed glue is over paraffin oil or just plain rubber. I am not sure the paraffin oil does anything for long because it evaporates too quickly.

I can evaluate the differences in rubbers just by using them - I don't need CORs to test what a good loop stroke can reveal.
So you are the one who knows nothing and needs numbers to tell you what a good stroke reveals. A pity you can't fix that.

PathfinderPro does testing and evaluations. You only have your opinions of what will work for you. You are not a calibrated test device. I am not a calibrated test device but I know a lot more about testing than you do.

I just revealed that you have been saying they fooled you because you think that other people don't understand English - but we do.

Again you lie! I have not mention anything about knowing English. You just don't know there is a difference between tension and elasticity.

You are the one who says that equipment lack power because power has a definition in physics that is not the same as the definition in table tennis.

Again you are wrong. I never said TT equipment lacks power. It isn't a matter of degree. TT equipment doesn't have any power. The player generates power. The only exception to that is if you burn the TT equipment to generate power. I bet the rubber with speed glue will burn hotter and generate more energy.
The TT definition of power came from ignorant TT players that didn't know how to express simple concepts. It is that simple.

Let's just let it go because the level of rigid thinking that reveals is ridiculous.

Just because I don't believe in the tension fairy like you do doesn't mean my thinking is rigid. My thinking is logical and informed. It is based on physics and reason.

You could only be hired for anything the required computers - humans are more flexible than that.

I can still do math and physics the old fashioned way with paper, pencil and a slide rule.
I also do marketing, I write magazine articles, I teach. I get invited to teach seminars at universities. I give many presentations at technical conferences. I admit these are easier to do using computers but they are not absolutely necessary.
I don't have to worry about being hired. You do. I wouldn't hired anybody that doesn't know the difference between tension and elasticity or speed, energy and power. Now what do you do and who cares?

You want more? Bring it on.

 

[NextLevel]

Arguing with a glorified computer is a waste of time.

 

[Liten]

I urge NL to stop. We do not need another narcissistic querulant internet club founded! Your beeing outmatched by a pro! The 5 796 001 earlier clubs are quite enough!
(They all contain one member each!).







Naaa just kidding, flame on. Im waiting fore some glue to dry and have nothing better to read.
This is great fun.

 

[NextLevel]

I urge NL to stop. We do not need another narcissistic querulant internet club founded! Your beeing outmatched by a pro! The 5 796 001 earlier clubs are quite enough!
(They all contain one member each!).







Naaa just kidding, flame on. Im waiting fore some glue to dry and have nothing better to read.
This is great fun.

My last post felt like the consummate exit - I expect the usual GIGO response from the resident nut, but I'm pretty much done.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Arguing with a glorified computer is a waste of time.

But.....wait.....isn't the computer broken? Disks are cracked, chips have been eaten with hot salsa? I've been wondering why my screen is breaking up.

Say, is that that amateur player with the massive backhand over there?

Gotta Go.

 

[Liten]

As we have not seen the "Ive never been entierly wrong in a discussion on the internet" yet I bet we have a shitstorm brewing.. They tend to follow people who refuse to "kneel" around..