TT Myth Busters

says Spin and more spin.
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Oh! You use that pedal to!?? It's kickass! :D

220573-best-piece-gear-ever-guitar-pedal.jpg


;)

I like this distortion pedal. Astounding Licks; Genuine Modesty; Talent Simulator: Now we know how that guy can take on the best in China and win.
 
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NL... some of the sneaky topspin serves I gave you that night that you had trouble vs were side top corkscrew and kicked to your left. The slow half long or short ones. They kicked to the side more than you were expecting.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

So you mean the corkscrew was kicking in a different direction from the sidespin?
 
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I've been thinking about DTop's idea of taking the Newgy Robot, having it set to the highest speed/spin, and turning the head upside down (or right side up) so that topspin is coming out.

Punchy might not be willing to do the test. But we could sure film the test. We could film the arc and kick of the ball. We could film what it looks like when the ball hits the net and spins like crazy, we could film the bounce on the ground after the table and when it hits the wall behind.

I know, PNut would still come up with some excuse for why his ball looks like it has no spin and insist that it has the same amount as came to him.

But it would be funny to put the videos side by side. To see how much spin that would actually be if the machine was set to full and it was topspin. And how much more spin than what Punchy still seems to think is a loop.


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Carl,

The topspin when set to level 30 on a Newgy is not all that heavy. I can set the Newgy on top of the table and block with only slightly closed, stationary racket and still block the ball back on the table with a TBS and modern rubbers. I don't think I could possibly do that against a 2500 level loopers heavy topspin. I can provide video of me blocking against a level 30 Newgy topspin if anyone would like to see it.

I thought through all this and did some napkin calculations, and I do think it's possible that Pnachtwey is matching the spin on the ball with his swing speed. It's just that the spin is not all that heavy on a Newgy - it's just the combination of spin and forward speed that give that illusion that it's heavy. I put the Newgy on top of the table and shot level 30 topspin into the net for awhile, and the ball does not fizz quite as much as you would expect.

Also keep in mind that the title of Pnactwey's video on Youtube says that he is looping against level 25 backspin, not 30.
 
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So you mean the corkscrew was kicking in a different direction from the sidespin?
Yes. I used corkscrew and it kicks fierce sometimes.

Side spin is spin on a vertical axis like you are spinning a top. It will move in the air and also after the bounce... but it will not suddenly move a direction immediately after the bounce.

Corkscrew is like you have a long stick facing you kinda like someone is pointing a spear at you. Then they keep it pointing at you and twist it. A spin with that vector of rotation is corkscrew.

Pure top and under spin are easily understood. The spin is spinning like you are holding the spear horizontally in front of you with both hands wide.

Topspin and corkscrew will kick. My half long and short serve that got you the most was a top/corkscrew with a bit of side spin.

When you finally showed me you could handle it (you made two winners or pressure shots in a row off that serve) at that point late in the match I switched to side under and under corkscrew serves. The timing and kick is different and one of those serves won me game 4.

The

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The side spin I gave you broke in a consistent manner to your left both in flight and after the bounce.

The corkscrew spin made it suddenly kick to your left and towards your body anywhere from 2 to 10 inches depending on how close you got to the ball.

That was enough to have you misjudge it and the serve hit your finger or edge of bat or pop it up off to the side.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
 
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NL, yes. My corkscrew will kick in same direction as my side spin moves, but the corkscrew spin will NOT make the ball curve in the air during the flight before and after, unlike the side spin which DOES curve the ball in air before and after, but that curve is pretty much constant, not sudden kick on the bounce like my corkscrew.

NL, what trouble can we start at midnight Eastern Time tonite? :D
 
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NL, yes. My corkscrew will kick in same direction as my side spin moves, but the corkscrew spin will NOT make the ball curve in the air during the flight before and after, unlike the side spin which DOES curve the ball in air before and after, but that curve is pretty much constant, not sudden kick on the bounce like my corkscrew.

NL, what trouble can we start at midnight Eastern Time tonite? :D

I wasn't clear originally - when I said the spin was impossible,I meant the full description of the serve that SchemeSC present, not just the corkscrew bounce. Corkscrew is my friend - just keeping it real.

But of course, sometimes, keeping it real goes wrong...

 
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Quick comments

Rowden Fullen is right about the spin continuation wrong about everything else.

A TT ball only has one axis of rotation. It may not be vertical, horizontal, or a perfect spiral but something in between.
TT balls may not be perfectly round down to the micron but such small deformities would not cause a visible wobble. You can't see microns while moving.

If the ball is really egg shaped then it will wobble. The question is does it wobble the even 5 mm from the original flight path? If the ball is out of round then any paddle will make the ball wobble, not just pips.

Where is the wobble force when the ball is round? At high speed there can be oscillating currents around the ball but these would be at higher frequencies. When bouncing back balls with LPs the ball doesn't go that fast. I have had people tell me that the flight of the ball changes when I swing an miss but that is not a wobble. That is air eddies around by paddle and arm.

The idea that the ball dimples cause wobble is false too. Yes, the ball deforms on contact but it quickly restores shape as it is leaving the top sheet. I have a high speed video camera. The ball looks normal within a few millimeter from leaving the paddle. The shape is probably normal much earlier but at 2000 FPS and 10 m/s the ball travels 5mm per frame. I can't see what happens in between frames.

Nextlevel's thin looping video on the other forum. What a joke and Nextlevel wants to be critical of my videos when he is only hitting a dropped ball that isn't moving with no spin and there. I don't see much la qiu thereand there is no back spin to contend with nor is the ball low when he hits it. Where is Suga D's criticism for no la qiu? I know, there is a bias and Suga D sees only what he wants to see.

Again more distortions from StupidCarl. I didn't say NextLevel can't loop. I have seen him make one good one. I said NextLevel admitted he couldn't loop back chopped balls with T25. I can. The whole point was that high or low throw shouldn't make much difference in looping back chopped balls if you match the spin of the ball. SupidCarl doesn't understand Newton's laws of motion. Carl, you can't just read the laws. You must understand them.
Arguing with stupid carl is futile. He still can't explain how I kill the spin. He thinks that the ball actually stops spinning when you loop back a chopped ball. Another myth. Yes, I am p-nuts for arguing with the ignorant.

It is amazing that there are so many that think I am nuts. I am the one that has posted links to credible sources that back me up. All I have got from the detractors is opinion and myths. It is clear to me that the detractors can't understand what is written in the links I post. They probably believe the earth is flat too.

I agree with izra's comment above.
 
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I think a wobble effect is possible with LP where there is spin. Let's say a player makes a heavy underspin shot that somehow bounces a bit high. LP player bumps it a bit firm, but not full firm. With inverted rubber, you would expect the ball to come back pretty quickly and have underspin given what you saw on the stroke. What is actually coming back is topspin. The initial pace of the ball is slower, because the grip pressure is not very tight. So the ball flies in the air more slowly. The change of spin (really the continuation of it) from incoming underspin to topspin going out in opposite direction is now going right into the air current just vacated by the underspin, plus the bat made a disturbance. The ball can deflect slightly f=right there.

The small deflection, the "wrong" expected slow pace and spin and initial path are unexpected, then the ball lands and kicks... that makes everything wrong and an opponent would write a sworn affidavit that the ball wobbled. In this example, I feel there was a small amount of deflection and a whole lot of wrong anticipation from opponent making opponent think there was wobbling happening.

Now when an LP player "kills" the incoming spin with a combination of the pips properties, the stroke, and grip pressure (or lack of it) you also get a ball that is different from what opponent expects (whether it was an incoming top or under spin) and the LP player sent back a knuckle ball with very little or almost no spin. You get an even MOAR deflection initially into the vacated air space and currents (knuckle ball is running into a tiny turbulant air) and as the ball travels with next to no spin, it is more affected by air and will also move.

All in all, I think the wobble effect is in the majority of cases of an illusion of three things that what the ball is now doing are different from what opponent expects.

1) Resultant pace immediately after shot is different (often much slower than expected)

2) Resultant spin is different and the flight path is different than expected

3) the TIMING of the ball arriving is way different than expected and the spin acts different (#2)

All this makes the opponent totally faked out and ready to swear he really saw a wobbling ball when in reality, his sense of time and space is way off.

I also believe there are a few times where a true no spin (or real close to one) can be affected by the air current during travel and "Drift" in an apparent random fashion.
 
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The same effects can be produced by a player with regular inverted rubber as well, but it would take a true master of hand pressure and very short deceptive stroke and follow through at impact on a close to table shot.

That is kinda like doing a deceptive serve, but is is a low or medium speed rally shot done by a master and fooling the opponent on his impact.

The same TRUE wobble can also be done with inverted, but getting the spin totally killed is darned difficult.
 
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This guy is too funny.

Again more distortions from StupidCarl.

The man who said he was looping from a Newgy at speed 25 and then said it was 30. Then when asked about it, insisted it was speed 30 and that I was lying to say it was 25 when it was him who said it. I would say that if Pnachtwey is saying I distort things it actually is a compliment. Coming from a guy who takes random quotes that have been answered multiple times and repeats silly attacks as though the same statements haven't been gone over again and again.

You like to bog people down in stupid arguments by throwing out accusations. But you don't seem to answer any of the questions asked of you because you just like starting arguments.

I said NextLevel admitted he couldn't loop back chopped balls with T25. I can.

And the idea that you keep repeating this nonsense in spite of the fact that the context for the statement has been explained again and again. But it doesn't seem to matter what explanations of things like this you have heard, you keep on repeating the small, simple, stupid original statements ad infinitum.

"NextLevel admitted he couldn't loop back chopped balls with T25. I can."

Even though you know that what NextLevel meant was something different. In a match with players of a decent level, looping with T25 is harder than with T05 and many other high throw rubbers and the change in the technique of the stroke to do it in the random situation of a match would not be worth it.

The whole point was that high or low throw shouldn't make much difference in looping back chopped balls if you match the spin of the ball.

And the fact is, if this was actually the case then there might be some productive discussion on the subject but instead you just keep bringing up one line slogans again and again. Nobody really ever meant that you cannot loop backspin with T25 but there are rubbers that work much better for this and the amount that you would have to change technique is not worth it. So why waste our time continually repeating statements that have already been answered so many times? Because your actual purpose is not to discuss matters but to try and create straw men to call idiots.

The person who said the quote you keep repeating there doesn't actually exist because what was meant was something different but you refuse to pay attention and listen. All of this has to do with the obvious emotional problems you have that have gone unchecked for years and the fact that you obviously fall somewhere on the autism spectrum.

And so you make idiotic statements like this:

SupidCarl doesn't understand Newton's laws of motion. Carl, you can't just read the laws. You must understand them.Arguing with stupid carl is futile.

There is no reason to respond to idiotic statements like this. They only make you look like the small person you are and none of what I just quoted actually means anything. There is also no reason to argue with a person like you because you ignore all the stuff you find convenient to ignore like the fact that your shots have very little spin and just keep bringing up dumb slogans that actually just make you seem even more foolish than you are.

He still can't explain how I kill the spin.

I don't have to explain it. The video shows balls with little spin. I know I can take a high backspin ball and drive forward and up into it making pretty flat contact and put a ball back with very little spin because of how I get the ball to dig into the rubber and sponge and bottom out at the wood. If I had a robot spitting out balls to the same spot, I could do this over and over again. The friction of the rubber can grab the ball depending on how you contact it and increase or slow the spin.

And the fact is it takes very little technique to do what I just described but to brush the ball delicately, get the ball to sink in, feel the point where the sponge distorts and the topsheet grabs the ball and add acceleration--in other words, to loop a backspin ball--takes a lot more technique than to hit flat.

I have already talked about how I know someone who hits dead balls that look like loops on purpose. But I guess you ignored that as well because you like popping out the same silly slogans like this next one:

He thinks that the ball actually stops spinning when you loop back a chopped ball.

This is another one of those silly things he repeats over and over grasping at straws trying to make someone else look stupid and really he only makes himself look stupid.

I have already already answered this nonsense a few times.

But, here goes, I will do it again. Perhaps this is what happens and what I said that Pnachtwey is referring to:

When you are looping vs backspin and the racket speed as it brushes the ball reaches approximately the same speed as the speed of the spin, then the ball's spin, in relation to the speed of the racket is not moving and the rubber grabs the ball as the ball sinks into the sponge.

If the racket's speed is the same as the speed of the spin, then the spin is not moving in relation to the rubber which is in contact with it.

If as this happens the racket's speed is still accelerating and surpasseses the speed of the spin than you could add more spin to the ball than was originally on it. The rebound of the rubber after the ball has sunk into the sponge enough for the topsheet to distort and grab the ball also could be adding to the spin.

I don't know. Perhaps that is not what happens. But, when the speed of the racket brushing past the ball is the same as the speed of the spin, then they are not moving in relation to each other because they are going the same speed in the same direction.

And none of this information would make anyone a better player so I will leave you all with one last quote from Killerspitt who has addressed everything that needs to be addressed to this weird argumentative guy who likes to call people names and is hoping to make others look like fools because he is a small, small person.

Honestly guys, this is the same and same fight other and other again. I also tried to explain, but sometime it is just impossible.
If he cannot see that there is close to NO SPIN comming out of his FH stroke, I think it's just impossible to discuss further. He just has to open his eyes, there is close to NO SPIN. I don't believe AT ALL that he doesn't see it (every single person here is seeing that there is no spin in is FH stroke, everyone but him), but still he is pretending that there is heavy spin, despite everyone seeing and telling him there is not : the guy is just dishonest.

What the point of arguing with such a person ? There is not.

It's too bad, because beeing engineer myself (also having a master degree in fundamental physics), and also coaching when I got time......I was in the mood to give advices to improve his technic and his understanding of table tennis, I even though it could have been great to see his improvements, his new strokes and seeing him getting more ball feeling (because he doesn't feel if he produces spin or not).

But seeing that he doesn't even admit a simple fact which anyone can see (there is NO SPIN), means that there is no possible constructible discussion with him.

I just hope, nobody here became disgusted by physics and engineers, we are not like that.....when our own video is obviously proving that we are wrong.......we admit that we are wrong somewhere, usually......and we don't call people "fools" or "stupid" because they don't know what the second law of Newton is.

My best suggestion would be to seek out psychological help. I don't mean this as an insult. You obviously have no clue but fall into a bunch of standard patterns. Perhaps you have entertained us with your lack of self awareness but you would do well to try and seek help.


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The revenge of the abominable Pete,
and once again you did it again. This is just hilarious.
You take things literally, that are definitely not meant literally.

Quick comments
The question is does it wobble the even 5 mm from the original flight path?
As others pointed out already: it's about an instabile flightpath and not some zigzag flight that looks like it was radio controlled. I guess that's what this thread is all about. You call it a myth 'cause you take stuff literally, when everybody knows it's meant metaphoric. That's just common sense, man. And as also been said before: you really seem to overestimate yourself.

Nextlevel's thin looping video on the other forum. What a joke and Nextlevel wants to be critical of my videos when he is only hitting a dropped ball that isn't moving with no spin and there. I don't see much la qiu thereand there is no back spin to contend with nor is the ball low when he hits it.
From just comparing the videos of the both of you and not knowing both of you personally, it's totally obvious that NL's playing level is WAY above yours PLUS he doesn't hide himself in his videos and isn't scared to take critique. But i mean constructive critique, which is meant to be helpful and not some childish "i-can-loop-better-than-you" type critique. That is not critique, that is immaturity. Just imagine Joo Sae Hyuk would state in an interview, that he couldn't chop with a T05, when he actually meant that he couldn't chop with Tenergy05 as good as with a Tackiness-c and i would go around sayin' i was better than Joo, 'cause i'm able to chop with T05... What would you think of me??? ;)
Pnachtwey said:
Where is Suga D's criticism for no la qiu? I know, there is a bias and Suga D sees only what he wants to see.
What i see is someone who isn't afraid of exposing himself on the Internet, hoping for some advice to get better, and somebody else's video, who thinks he knows everything better, and somehow mysteriosly hides himself in his video, claimin' his loops carry HEAVY spin, but strangely some kind of spin, that only himself can see. (I guess that must be that often mentioned ghost spin then) :D

What do you see??

It is amazing that there are so many that think I am nuts.

Maybe it would help, if you wouldn't call everybody an idiot, that doesn't see your (non-existent) spin and start facing reality ;)

And as also pointed out before: you could end this here EASILY by posting a video that REALLY shows how you try to loop...

EDIT: i actually don't like repeating myself, but since this is just ONE BIG repetition, Peter, this one here's for you: :D
 
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Maybe it would help, if you wouldn't call everybody an idiot, that doesn't see your (non-existent) spin and start facing reality ;)
Why not? No one deserves any respect unless it is earned. I don't see where any of you have earned it.
When people like NextLevel start a post by saying I know nothing about tensioned rubbers. NextLevel can't explain what keeps a rubber tensioned and he is a engineer wannabe. Heaven help the world. When people like NextLevel say I serve dead balls without even looking at the video? The fact don't matter to Nextlevel and if you don't have any make them up. When StupidCarl says I am delusional but it is obvious the balls are going back over the net. When stupid carl says the balls stop spinning when looping back spin balls and then challenges my spin matching technique. StupidCarl still cannot explain how I stop the spin and return no-spin balls. When moderators on the another forum say I cannot do the math when they haven't even looked up who I am I and can do math and physics way beyond what others on any of these forums can. BTW, David Marcus ( ratings central ) has a PhD in probability and statics or something similar but the other forum gave him so much grief he simply doesn't post any more.
When moderators like yogibear erase my posts because I embarrass him when I ask him to check with his claimed brothers with engineering degrees. I understand yogi bear doesn't like being put on the spot but once you pick a fight with me you are in it for the long haul. Yogi couldn't win except by kicking me out. It doesn't make that much difference. I can still read the non-sense there and post comments on it else where.
When people called me Sid, P-nut punchy or what ever. they don't deserve my respect. My detractors only post opinions ( lies ) without any facts. I can post links to back up my points but somehow I am the p-nut.

BTW, another stupid, and yes, idiotic myth has been started on another forum. Look for the jumpulse thread. You know things have got to be bad when one of the big idiots there, zeio, says it is too bad I can't post on that forum. If that forum wasn't full of idiots they could easily refute jumpulse's non-sense. Where is wturber? He is one of the few with common sense there. Where are all of those people that claim to have PhDs in physics? Meanwhile the jumpulse thread is funny but it makes the whole forum look stupid.

One of the forum moderators defends the right of everyone to express their opinions in that thread. On that forum popular opinions win. No one cares whether the opinions are true or can be backed up with facts so the idiocy continues.
 
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When people like NextLevel say I serve dead balls without even looking at the video? The fact don't matter to Nextlevel and if you don't have any make them up.

Again, this is the whole issue. You do not know what heavy spin is because you've never personally experienced it or generated it in your entire life. To anyone above a 1500 level, the serve that you are doing would be classified as a dead ball serve, because there is minimal spin. In fact, the lack of spin on your serve was the very first thing I noticed in your video, and I think your problems in that area actually outweigh your looping issues. Your inability to generate spin (and your ignorance of this factor) makes debating these types of things with you nearly impossible.

Nobody here doubts your understanding of physics and mathematics. But when you come on here saying that the spin on a Newgy is "unrealistic" and I post a video of me blocking level 30 topspin with a barely closed, stationary racket angle, no one is going to take you seriously.
 
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Why not? No one deserves any respect unless it is earned.

Every single person deserves respect without proving anything.
Statements like yours however takes away any respect one might have had for you.
Ive been treated with nothing but respect and kindness from the getgo joining this forum, and I know NOTHING worth passing along as useful information other than what I picked up from others.
But clueless and ignorant is two TOTALLY different things.
- Respected until proven ignorant...
Havent made up my mind about what kind of person you are yet. Just ignorant (and pulling all our legs in all these "bohooo" threads) or a combo of them both.
 
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