Upgrade Grubba to Xiom Off S vs. Andro Core Off vs. IF ALC (V-6)

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I guess I know why even pro don't play that fast equipment cause it can increase your speed but not the spin. Spin wise u need acceleration thus your own input. Allwood blades with long dwelling time are slow so it can't overshoot with that long contact time. All the fast carbon blades mostly do have hard outer layer because of this, u need a quick release else ball overshoot due to the high speed.

So in the end it's preference between these both extreme, that's why most played categories are all+ till off.
 
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As I said earlier, Ma Long used a violin early in his career. This is roughly same speed as Grubba blade.

Here he is Vs Boll with a violin:

https://youtu.be/B40KzjPdnBc

You asked earlier how come people "get to" use Boll ALC and tenergy at 1500 and you don't. Well you can if you like! But probably it is too fast for them in all honesty.
 
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As I said earlier, Ma Long used a violin early in his career. This is roughly same speed as Grubba blade.

Here he is Vs Boll with a violin:

https://youtu.be/B40KzjPdnBc

You asked earlier how come people "get to" use Boll ALC and tenergy at 1500 and you don't. Well you can if you like! But probably it is too fast for them in all honesty.

You don't think that was speed glued back then?
 
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As I said earlier, Ma Long used a violin early in his career. This is roughly same speed as Grubba blade.

Here he is Vs Boll with a violin:

https://youtu.be/B40KzjPdnBc

You asked earlier how come people "get to" use Boll ALC and tenergy at 1500 and you don't. Well you can if you like! But probably it is too fast for them in all honesty.

To be honest, the Violin and the Grubba are different. And speed glue and the celluloid ball made things different.

In my view you can use anything you want. There was a time when people thought that certain strokes were only for certain levels of players. Or that speed gluing can only be done if you are advanced. There is something to be said for equipment being too expensive or fast but if you get proper coaching and understand what is happening, you don't have to spend forever using slower equipment I'd you care consistent with it. You may prefer the risk of faster equipment for the reward of easier rally play.

I would start most people on slower equipment to build confidence but I am not yet sure what slower equipment is with the plastic ball.
 
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To be honest, the Violin and the Grubba are different. And speed glue and the celluloid ball made things different.

In my view you can use anything you want. There was a time when people thought that certain strokes were only for certain levels of players. Or that speed gluing can only be done if you are advanced. There is something to be said for equipment being too expensive or fast but if you get proper coaching and understand what is happening, you don't have to spend forever using slower equipment I'd you care consistent with it. You may prefer the risk of faster equipment for the reward of easier rally play.

I would start most people on slower equipment to build confidence but I am not yet sure what slower equipment is with the plastic ball.

You always talk a lot of sense NL :)
 
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Guys I bump up'd the thread with new theory. The opening question I already decided to stay with Grubba and switch rubber wise from Baracuda to G1.

I still don't get the recommendations of korbel and other blades, cuz I already own one in this segment (Xiom Offensive S).
 
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Violin is stiffer and faster then Grubba. Violin is Off blade while Grubba is All blade. Also quality of Violin is much better then Grubba (no Made in Japan).

Violin is nowhere near Off. It's an All+ blade speed wise. If it's faster it's only slightly and some Grubba's are faster than some Violins. No argument on quality Violin is a beautiful blade.
 
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You don't think that was speed glued back then?

Of course but afaik speed glue only affects the rubber not the blade. I think you are missing the point I am making.

Ma Long using a Grubba now would hit absolute cannons with a sheet of unboosted Sriver. There is nothing wrong with an amateur using pro equipment, it's fun, it's fine to play with. But of they think they need it to play to the best of their abilities they are mostly (not always of course) dead wrong.

Most amateurs that feel they need more speed from their blade are just plain wrong. This is a hell of a lot of amateurs as the amount of ZLCs on low level players attests to. They don't lose points because they didn't have the speed on the ball, they lost because they made an unforced errors over and over again. This is exaggerated not helped by their fast equipment.

Using slower equipment would not only mitigate this causing a usual instant improvement in results but also help then improve their technique more quickly in the long run.

Of course it's not as glamorous using a Grubba and control rubbers than a boosted H3 national, Dignics 05 on a Mizutani Super ZLC.
 
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Of course but afaik speed glue only affects the rubber not the blade. I think you are missing the point I am making.

Ma Long using a Grubba now would hit absolute cannons with a sheet of unboosted Sriver. There is nothing wrong with an amateur using pro equipment, it's fun, it's fine to play with. But of they think they need it to play to the best of their abilities they are mostly (not always of course) dead wrong.

Most amateurs that feel they need more speed from their blade are just plain wrong. This is a hell of a lot of amateurs as the amount of ZLCs on low level players attests to. They don't lose points because they didn't have the speed on the ball, they lost because they made an unforced errors over and over again. This is exaggerated not helped by their fast equipment.

Using slower equipment would not only mitigate this causing a usual instant improvement in results but also help then improve their technique more quickly in the long run.

Of course it's not as glamorous using a Grubba and control rubbers than a boosted H3 national, Dignics 05 on a Mizutani Super ZLC.

This is one take. There are others. Consistency is not the only thing that wins points, spin and speed do as well. It is very hard to get a topspin ball moving with a slower blade. In the men's game, it is also conventional to step back a little and play larger strokes. Again not as easy with a slower blade. Grubba Pro or Grubba, which are different blades are both relatively slow and are more all round than they are offensive.

The other thing is that consistency is not necessarily improved by a slower blade and even if it is, there is no point in consistent easy balls that the opponent can snack you around with. Your opponents' winners count as much as your unforced errors.

Of course Ma Long will beat most players with a slowe blade. Does that mean a slower blade is ideal for him? Moreover, with the plastic ball, it isn't clear what a slower blade is anymore. Some players may get injured trying to get the ball moving with a slower blade. I don't think it is completely an accident that many pros using all wood blades or slower composites started testing blades again and moved to ALC or ZLC after. Maybe amateurs should be using 7 ply blades?

My point is that while many people are using setups that are too fast for them, there are also people using setups that are too slow. But you can't tell this unless you watch the player in question and make some conclusions about their quality of play. Playing style does matter.

One of the benefits of composites is that it is easier to make faster looping blades. Composites can keep blades relatively thin while supporting faster speeds. In the past you needed a thick 7 or 5 ply to get the speed performance of a Boll ALC.

The thing is that the OP has put his level around 1600 to 1700 USATT. At that level, what he should be using is up to him.

When I went to a coach early last year before I quit from pain, a coach asked me to switch to a faster blade or a faster rubber or both because she felt my.output was too poor for my input. I didn't agree back then but I am experimenting with it now. Sometimes using faster equipment helps you understand your game better. It is not a one-way street.

In general part of the reason why people are encouraged to use slower blades is that they often struggle to loop backspin and no spin with faster setups. But even with that, sometimes it is just technique that needs to be improved and once that is fixed, the blades may not be as much as an issue. Foot work and ability to get to the ball may be another issue. But OP is not looking at Schlager Carbons and Garaydia T5000. He is looking at reasonable seven ply or composite looping blades. He doesn't need one but he might enjoy using one. Nothing wrong with that at all and he may play better with them too. And if not they tell him something about his game. But it is hard to find a good player who had not at least tested different equipment whether he has decided to switch is another story.
 
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NDH

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Just to add to this (without directly answering the OP’s question).

I play at the highest level of UK table tennis (local league) - The next step up I guess is focussing on the big tournaments, where you could argue the level is professional (players making a living from playing table tennis) or at the very least, semi pro.

I used to play with a Schlager Carbon - I used this as an advanced junior, and didn’t really give it much thought.

When I came back to the sport after a break of 10 years, I continued using the SC for the first season - I quickly decided it was too fast, despite getting back to the level I was at previously.

The following year I used a Garaydia ZLC - Not wanting to change dramatically, I figured this was a sensible step down.

My average improved, but I still found I could probably use something a touch slower.

This year I’ve been using the Tibhar VS Unlimted, and have had my best season by a long shot (80% in one of the top local leagues).

I will likely go slower still (in part because I really like the look of the new Harimoto blade), but mainly because I’ve not really lost a lot of attacking power by stepping down from the Schlager Carbon to the VS Unlimited, but my short game, touch and feel have all dramatically improved.

Yet it’s still the part of my game which could improve further, and I honestly think a slightly slower blade will help there.

So, I guess what I’m saying is, if you have good technique, you won’t need to worry about getting “fast” equipment.

Work on the technique until you are extremely confident with it - You can then play around with what suits you, and if you feel a quicker blade will help (or a slower one!) you can try it out and see.
 
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Interesting debate with some contra to the usual slower always better advices.
I'm also a fan to try things out, that's why I own some blades as in the title mentioned.

Last thing I wonder why Chinese rubbers ain't recommended more often cuz they are hard thus slow and gives a more direct feedback than e.g. soft tensor rubbers.
 
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Interesting debate with some contra to the usual slower always better advices.
I'm also a fan to try things out, that's why I own some blades as in the title mentioned.

Last thing I wonder why Chinese rubbers ain't recommended more often cuz they are hard thus slow and gives a more direct feedback than e.g. soft tensor rubbers.

Because you need to be relatively athletic or very experienced to do what they do really well so you are often better off using Euro rubbers.
 

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Interesting debate with some contra to the usual slower always better advices.
I'm also a fan to try things out, that's why I own some blades as in the title mentioned.

Last thing I wonder why Chinese rubbers ain't recommended more often cuz they are hard thus slow and gives a more direct feedback than e.g. soft tensor rubbers.

I actually think if you have a non spinny Chinese rubber, it's fine for a junior to learn the strokes (it effectively then becomes very similar to the junior pre made type bats).

But as soon as you lean the strokes, unless you are being taught the Chinese style of attacking, you'll find life very difficult.

I can play with Chinese rubbers - It's not especially fun, and it's tough going to put that much effort into the strokes (I will often find myself out of position with it).

You also lose the "instinct" type shots if you've built up a number of years of playing with Euro/Jap rubbers.

So yeah, Chinese rubbers are hard and slow, but i wouldn't advise them to someone playing with a typical Euro/Jap style.

Although, it's worth noting that not ALL Chinese rubbers are what we would class a "Chinese rubber".

I've tried some of the new Yinhe and Double Fish rubbers - They play more like a Tenergy than a Hurricane 3.
 
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NDH: You can play with anything if you're a properly schooled player from a fairly young age (which I guess applies to you). I witnessed a guy turning up to our practice and completely beat up one of Swedens best 13 year olds using a Stiga Allround paired with Mark V. The 13 year old plays in our 3rd tier national senior division/league. The guy that just turned up hadn't played TT since 1989 but had won matches against J-O and Peter Karlsson in his youth. The speed of his loops and smashes were just out of this world.

I can completely understand why keen GOOD amateurs turns to fast wood or composite blades as it's really hard to combat people who have got extremely good technique as they will just rip you apart in terms of speed.
 
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I don't disagree NL that some players use too slow equipment. I personally know one who did.

What do you reckon the ratio is though compared to guys who use too fast? I know a guy who uses a Schlager carbon and tries to loop with it. Schlager couldn't loop well with a Schlager hence he actually used a Primorac carbon with a Schlager handle!

There are many ways to skin a cat of course, but in general, the average club player uses too fast equipment he can't control much more often than the other way.

Also a fast spinny loop is nigh on unreturnable at lower levels, that's with a defensive blade and a sheet of sriver nevermind a composite with tenergy. The extra oomph from the equipment does not give many more points at all low levels generally because that ball ain't coming back anyway if hit properly, but it increases the number of errors by a much greater amount. In general of course. There are always exceptions but I am talking low level club players here.
 
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I don't disagree NL that some players use too slow equipment. I personally know one who did.

What do you reckon the ratio is though compared to guys who use too fast? I know a guy who uses a Schlager carbon and tries to loop with it. Schlager couldn't loop well with a Schlager hence he actually used a Primorac carbon with a Schlager handle!

There are many ways to skin a cat of course, but in general, the average club player uses too fast equipment he can't control much more often than the other way.

Also a fast spinny loop is nigh on unreturnable at lower levels, that's with a defensive blade and a sheet of sriver nevermind a composite with tenergy. The extra oomph from the equipment does not give many more points at all low levels generally because that ball ain't coming back anyway if hit properly, but it increases the number of errors by a much greater amount. In general of course. There are always exceptions but I am talking low level club players here.
There are really slow defensive blades (DEF-), and there are really stiff carbon blades (OFF+). Everything in the middle is relative to style and competence. But most of the issues people have with the things that are not at the extreme ends are fixable by training, sometimes on strokes, sometimes on footwork etc. Even OFF blades. The most important thing is to avoid the rocket launchers and the snails.

With low level club players, the issue is usually confusing price with quality and getting bad advice when they start out. But as DerEchte will tell you, Off+ Schlager type blades are common for people playing a certain smash and chop block/pip hit style with OX long pips in Korea and these ladies are maybe 1200 USATT, I have seen one play often in the US (haven't seen her in a while though but she would not change her blade if you begged her). So style can trump a lot of things. I have also seen many loopers play with Sardius-type blades. One kid coached by a high level coach used Sardius with T05FX on both sides. Then for one last memory, they coach many players in the Dominican republic etc. to use OFF+ blades to play a topspin drive style where it is mostly fast serves and smash/drive the ball hard. These players can get to like 2400 USATT even as kids.

So the priority is the coaching. As for whether more players are using too fast or too slow blades, I think it is easy to blame a player for using a blade that is too fast when it really wouldn't matter given their technical limitations, but if consistency is the measure, yes more players are using equipment that is too fast but I am arguing that consistency is not the only measure. It is easier to learn to loop with a relatively slower blade if you are an adult but it is not impossible to learn with any reasonable looping blade (ALL to OFF).

The one thing I can say is that faster equipment does not encourage playing with spin unless you get the right kind of coaching. But this is a subtle point, I think coaching is the real thing and that fast equipment and slow equipment have benefits. There are some players who will slow down their equipment (or make it spin oriented) when playing choppers and speed it up when playing topspin players. I know a friend who played extremely well with an Amultart but eventually stopped using it to use a Viscaria because he couldn't deal with a specific medium pips player consistently when he used the Amultart. This is the kind of thing that Timo was speaking about in his review when he explained why he uses ALC and not say Tamca 5000.
 
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