Upgrading blade and what it means to be able to control

[teetee]

Hi TTD,

Long time lurker here.

I am going to buy a new blade for long term practice and have some questions
TLDR: looking to buy bty innerforce alc, am i overestimating my patient to learn and practice, or is there other blade recommendation i should look into?

firstly, blade in consideration are in a range, may be inner carbon types (bty innerforce or yasaka atletico) or wood blades like Clipper CR or Azalea or Sweden Classic, and will probably sticking to tacky rubber both sides.

some background, i have been learning to play for about a year with a coach. Now i am able to generally do the basic stuff like drive, push and fh loop. haven't really developed a playing style preference, just trying to win points by keeping the ball on the table, keep pushing until i have to loop or moved too far from the table. I am able to do all the training drills at decent rate, but in games i always either rushing my shot or cannot react in time. not sure what else to describe

current setup is DHS PG7 blade with 729 Bloom Power and 729-05, but the handle is too uncomfortable, and while i like the blade vibration, hitting anywhere not the dead centre of the blade feel very inconsistent and the ball flies all over the place. I have tried my friend Timo Boll ALC with T05/T05FX and my friend said my shots are far more consistent, but i don't like the muted feel of the blade. Also, i feel i play the same, with the same level of control between both the PG7 and TB blade. before this blade i trained with Sanwei M8 with 729-05 both side, and i felt everything is so slow.

Hence, i am thinking of getting the innerforce for less flex blade while still having the wood feel, and better quality blade for training for next few years (the PG7 and M8 blades both feel very low quality though, with splints and rough finish). However, i keep seeing people saying that a blade can be too fast for beginner to control. Would innerforce be too fast? what does it feel like being able to control the ball? honestly besides the speed and woody feel, i feel the same using M8 and PG7 and TB in term of my spin output and short game push and keeping the ball on the table, or may be i simply don't produce enough spin even with M8. But i am able to loop backspin balls in drill, so either wrong technique or i do have some sort of control there. I got a chance to try Sardius with T64 both sides, and indeed the ball just fly off every time it touch the blade, so hard to play with. Coach say just get whatever blade that looks good to me and i will just need to practice harder, which is true but also some input will be helpful.

TLDR: looking to buy bty innerforce alc, am i overestimating my patient to learn and practice, or is there other blade recommendation i should look into?

thanks

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

So, your description gives me ideas of how you play. But, it my experience, when I see someone play, those ideas are almost always way off.

Is there any chance you can show footage of you playing? Without that, don't trust the recommendations people give. It is sort of like me asking you to tell me what size shoes will fit ME. You can't tell because you have not measured my foot.

The other option would be to: ASK your COACH. If he is your coach, perhaps he has an idea of what will be good for you. I personally would trust my coach, who has seen me play and knows what I can do rather than a random person on the internet who has never seen you play.

 

[Tango K]

Stick with PG7. Whatever blade you play, you are supposed to feel the differences in every single ball. A bigger sweet spot doesn’t mean you don’t have to care where on the bat you hit the ball. It’s supposed to mean “my feeling is ok enough to know I hit a little bit off to the centre with that subtle difference”.

If the handle is too uncomfy, find a similar thin light 7-ply limba blade with better handle. Ask your shop for a 80gr-83gr Samsonov Force Pro (the blue version) for example. These are very cheap (1/4 of an innerforce) so you don’t have to overthink.

 

[Kuba Hajto]

If you like your blade vibration but you don't like the handle, why not just get something similar but higher quality? Like either Dyjas UltraPower or Clipper

 

[Wister]

It may be possible that it's a bit rushed as you have only been playing since one year (that's really not a lot for table tennis).

Also you seem to not be so so consistent as you say : "I am able to do all the training drills at decent rate, but in games i always either rushing my shot or cannot react in time", "hitting anywhere not the dead centre of the blade feel very inconsistent and the ball flies all over the place"

One thing that made me put things in perspective is to see that ma long and otcharov play only with inner carbon blade and not outer carbon blade because they find it a bit too hard to control during the key points of matches. So are we really ready for it then ?

To bring some contradiction to this idea, i've heard some people say that the speed and stiffness of the blade should more be a question of style and preference and that it can be good even for low/mid level player.

You seems to be OK with your current blade except the handle, so maybe find something similar with a better handle ?

 

[Tango K]

Another thing I want to say is that you shouldn’t trust friends at the same level too much if your basics, especially feeling of spin, is not very good yet. Their understanding is not far ahead of you in the end of the day. A year ago my training partners always complained I wasn’t as consistent as them. Only the coaches, who were semi-pro, knew the truth - I’d been spinning all the time whereas they just do flat drive. Obviously a flat drive is always more consistent than a spinny drive by its nature. This is one of the reasons why beginners, me in the past included, always feel carbon is more consistent. It “flattens” the ball.

 

[EyyT]

I used pg7 with h3neo and cj8000 and I can say is better to get another all wood blade from japanese or european brand as ther build quality is better, than getting a inner carbon, as I am using a fabg bo 2 x now and it feels weird

 

[teetee]

So, your description gives me ideas of how you play. But, it my experience, when I see someone play, those ideas are almost always way off.

Is there any chance you can show footage of you playing? Without that, don't trust the recommendations people give. It is sort of like me asking you to tell me what size shoes will fit ME. You can't tell because you have not measured my foot.

The other option would be to: ASK your COACH. If he is your coach, perhaps he has an idea of what will be good for you. I personally would trust my coach, who has seen me play and knows what I can do rather than a random person on the internet who has never seen you play.

I understand what you mean. The venue i play has no video policy and the coach certainly doesn't want to breach that. i will have to see what i can come up with.

Anyway, what do you look for in the video though? techniques? execution of each stroke? I also want to understand more how different properties of the blade help with new learner. like if i'm doing fh loop wrong then slow blade or fast blade would not matter, but if my fh loop motion is not fast enough to brush the ball before it fly off using faster blade then may be it is clearer

 

[thomas.pong]

I think you gave us some good background info. Since you have only played for a year, I strongly recommend you get a 5-ply all-wood blade in the ALL+/OFF- region.

As a beginner and as you've mentioned, you can't exactly gage the speed and control factors of a blade, which means you haven't acquired much feeling yet. A 5-ply blade that's not too fast will allow you to gain more feel for the ball, have more control, will be more forgiving and you won't feel as rushed especially in matches.

When I was a beginner, I started playing with very fast blades with not much feel (ALC and ZLC outer), they always felt great when rallying (FH to FH, BH to BH) and when taking lessons with my coach, but it was a whole different story in matches. Then I tried innerforce which was a bit better in terms of feel (much less dead carbon vibrations) but still too fast and not controllable enough. Finally I stuck to a 5-ply all-wood blade (Korbel, Primorac), and my game started to develop a lot faster and exponentially, not just in training but in matches also. I wish I had started with my Primorac OFF- from the beginning.

The Sweden Classic and Azalea ALL you mentioned would work great for developing all facets of your game. They will greatly improve your fell and you should see great improvement in your in-match short game which is all so important for setting up attacks. They're a bit slower than what you're used to but will force you to use your body more (weight transfer of your legs, turning your core...) and use proper technique to generate speed and spin.

If you're worried about them being a bit too slow, go for the Azalea OFF or Korbel. The Primorac is right in the middle of the ALL+/OFF- range which is why I particularly enjoy it, a lot of feel with plenty of speed. Other blades worth mentioning are the Sweden Extra, the Acoustic all-wood, the OSP Virtuoso OFF- among the many great classic 5-ply blades.

 

[IB66]

Hi,

At the end of your post you said ‘coach say get whatever blade looks good to me (you) and train more’
So I take it that you have discussed changing your blade with the coach ?

As far as trying your friends bat, which also has different rubbers and is a pretty expensive set up, don’t get caught in a ‘keeping up with other people’ situation.

I own a PG7, for the monetary outlay it’s a very good 7 ply blade. Sweet spot is relatively small, rated as off-, but if you are learning the sport, then being able to move and hit the sweet spot more consistently is, as far as I’m concerned, only a good thing!!

My advice is to see if you can have a more in depth chat with your coach, not only about equipment but also about training.
You stated that during games, when you have to move and react, your consistency drops off ( doesn’t everyone’s!!!!) do more routines that are not predictable, ones that make you move and are more like a ‘game’ situation.
Once you have upped your standard, and consistency with the PG7 then think about changing equipment, your coach has said this, his apparent indifference to what blade you use is because basically he probably thinks you need to train and practice more!!! Regardless of equipment!!

So keep training hard

 

[thomas.pong]

I will also add that some coaches however high level they might be and how good they are at teaching you the game, may in fact know next to nothing when it comes to equipment other than what they use and a bit more. I've met many such coaches, and much higher level players than me that asked me for equipment advice...

I've also seen many club owners, main coaches themselves, recommend the fastest most expensive equipment to their students over and over again... This resulted in a club filled with beginners and low intermediate players waving Viscarias and Timo Boll ALC's equipped with Tenergy and Dignics.

 

[BryanY]

I would just get an OFF- blade with better quality and a nicer handle.

Also, are you sure you want to play with tacky rubber on backhand?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I understand what you mean. The venue i play has no video policy and the coach certainly doesn't want to breach that. i will have to see what i can come up with.

Anyway, what do you look for in the video though? techniques? execution of each stroke? I also want to understand more how different properties of the blade help with new learner. like if i'm doing fh loop wrong then slow blade or fast blade would not matter, but if my fh loop motion is not fast enough to brush the ball before it fly off using faster blade then may be it is clearer

In actuality, if I am looking at a video of a player who wants equipment recommendations, the first thing I look at is the contact quality and the resulting quality of spin.

But what Thomas said is likely true: if you are playing for only about 1 year, most likely, you are best off using an All Wood, 5 ply, Off- blade. The reason: That category of blade will help you develop the skill to create more spin and feel the ball better. Likely, a carbon blade would be a mistake even though, the majority of players playing around a year get or want to get a nice, expensive Carbon Blade. Often, it is only years later that they understand how using a fast blade that makes it harder to feel the quality of your ball contact actually caused them to take longer to develop certain technical skills that revolve around how you feel and contact the ball.

 

[teetee]

So, your description gives me ideas of how you play. But, it my experience, when I see someone play, those ideas are almost always way off.


Is there any chance you can show footage of you playing? Without that, don't trust the recommendations people give. It is sort of like me asking you to tell me what size shoes will fit ME. You can't tell because you have not measured my foot.


The other option would be to: ASK your COACH. If he is your coach, perhaps he has an idea of what will be good for you. I personally would trust my coach, who has seen me play and knows what I can do rather than a random person on the internet who has never seen you play.

Hi Carl, I understand what you mean. The venue i play has no video policy and the coach certainly doesn't want to breach that. i will have to see what i can come up with.


Anyway, what do you look for in the video though? techniques? execution of each stroke? I also want to understand more how different properties of the blade help with new learner. like if i'm doing fh loop wrong then slow blade or fast blade would not matter, but if my fh loop motion is not fast enough to brush the ball before it fly off using faster blade then may be it is clearer

Coach only use Long 5 and Sardius before and he says he cant recommend much. Just that 5 plies may be too slow for my late thirties body and cannot generate enough speed. so may be fast 7 plies or softer carbon

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Hi Carl, I understand what you mean. The venue i play has no video policy and the coach certainly doesn't want to breach that. i will have to see what i can come up with.


Anyway, what do you look for in the video though? techniques? execution of each stroke? I also want to understand more how different properties of the blade help with new learner. like if i'm doing fh loop wrong then slow blade or fast blade would not matter, but if my fh loop motion is not fast enough to brush the ball before it fly off using faster blade then may be it is clearer

Coach only use Long 5 and Sardius before and he says he cant recommend much. Just that 5 plies may be too slow for my late thirties body and cannot generate enough speed. so may be fast 7 plies or softer carbon

I did answer your first post about what I look for here:

In actuality, if I am looking at a video of a player who wants equipment recommendations, the first thing I look at is the contact quality and the resulting quality of spin.

But what Thomas said is likely true: if you are playing for only about 1 year, most likely, you are best off using an All Wood, 5 ply, Off- blade. The reason: That category of blade will help you develop the skill to create more spin and feel the ball better. Likely, a carbon blade would be a mistake even though, the majority of players playing around a year get or want to get a nice, expensive Carbon Blade. Often, it is only years later that they understand how using a fast blade that makes it harder to feel the quality of your ball contact actually caused them to take longer to develop certain technical skills that revolve around how you feel and contact the ball.

As far as a 5 ply being too slow, I am using a 5 ply all wood blade. I am 55 going on 56 and there is no way my blade is too slow for me.

If your coach has only used Sardius and ML 5, he has only used blades that are CRAZY fast. That is fine for someone with very good technique. But it is odd. A player with very good technique usually can hit the ball very hard and very fast, even with a very slow blade. An Off- blade IS NOT a very slow blade.

A TT ball is small and light. With good technique you can make a ball go fast with a lot of spin....with a blade of any speed.

One of the reasons someone who is developing would benefit from using a 5 ply, all wood blade is because it sort of forces you to do everything right to get a powerful shot. If your contact is a little off, your shot is not as good. When you can really hit with power with a 5 ply Off- blade, then, when you use a faster blade, your power will mean a lot more because it won't just be from the blade.

When your contact is good and really precise, you can make the ball go with speed and spin just from how you contact, whether your stroke is a short stroke or a larger one. And this is why, when I am looking at a player who is asking for equipment advice, THE FIRST THING I LOOK FOR IS THEIR QUALITY OF CONTACT. HOW THEY TOUCH AND FEEL THE BALL.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I guess, I will give more:

If you are using a fast carbon blade, the carbon dampens certain vibrations and makes it so you do not feel as much when you contact the ball. The carbon also makes it so, if your contact is a little off, if the contact is sub-optimal, you will not feel that the contact is off and, the carbon makes the ball go fast enough to seem like a good shot even when your contact was not good. This causes developing players to not realize that they are not contacting the ball as well as they can. And so, they don't improve mistakes that they can't feel they are making.

With an all wood blade that is 5 ply and Off-, when your contact is good, IT WILL FEEL GOOD. When your contact is not quite right, it will feel bad. Over time, this causes your nervous system, to figure out how to make better contact. The important thing to understand is, this happens at a sub-cortical level: said differently, it happens without you even realizing it is happening. But over time, your contact quality improves dramatically because your nervous system does not like the feeling of the shots that don't feel good and does like the feeling of the shots that do feel good.

As your contact quality improves, your stroke technique improves because you start feeling how you don't need to use as much effort, you don't need to waste effort, to make your strokes. So your strokes become more efficient and more relaxed so the form of the stroke improves.

Whereas, with the fast carbon blade, you are not contacting the ball quite well enough, you don't realize it, you can't feel it, and yet, the ball goes faster than you can control so you cut down your stroke which makes your stroke WORSE even though the ball goes fast. But you don't learn how to really get massive amounts of spin while still keeping the pace of your loops decently fast.

Whereas, a wood blade will help you learn to do this without you even realizing it.

When you are at the level where you can do all your strokes, you can control the depth and impact of your contact and you can really feel the ball and how you are contacting it, (usually this occurs when a player is at an elite amateur level, which is the level of a lot of TT coaches), then using a Carbon blade is going to add power to your shots. Until then, usually, it will detract from your development of clean, precise contact and learning how to control the depth and impact of the contact.

 

[teetee]

I guess, I will give more:

If you are using a fast carbon blade, the carbon dampens certain vibrations and makes it so you do not feel as much when you contact the ball. The carbon also makes it so, if your contact is a little off, if the contact is sub-optimal, you will not feel that the contact is off and, the carbon makes the ball go fast enough to seem like a good shot even when your contact was not good. This causes developing players to not realize that they are not contacting the ball as well as they can. And so, they don't improve mistakes that they can't feel they are making.

With an all wood blade that is 5 ply and Off-, when your contact is good, IT WILL FEEL GOOD. When your contact is not quite right, it will feel bad. Over time, this causes your nervous system, to figure out how to make better contact. The important thing to understand is, this happens at a sub-cortical level: said differently, it happens without you even realizing it is happening. But over time, your contact quality improves dramatically because your nervous system does not like the feeling of the shots that don't feel good and does like the feeling of the shots that do feel good.

As your contact quality improves, your stroke technique improves because you start feeling how you don't need to use as much effort, you don't need to waste effort, to make your strokes. So your strokes become more efficient and more relaxed so the form of the stroke improves.

Whereas, with the fast carbon blade, you are not contacting the ball quite well enough, you don't realize it, you can't feel it, and yet, the ball goes faster than you can control so you cut down your stroke which makes your stroke WORSE even though the ball goes fast. But you don't learn how to really get massive amounts of spin while still keeping the pace of your loops decently fast.

Whereas, a wood blade will help you learn to do this without you even realizing it.

When you are at the level where you can do all your strokes, you can control the depth and impact of your contact and you can really feel the ball and how you are contacting it, (usually this occurs when a player is at an elite amateur level, which is the level of a lot of TT coaches), then using a Carbon blade is going to add power to your shots. Until then, usually, it will detract from your development of clean, precise contact and learning how to control the depth and impact of the contact.

Hi Carl and to other as well,

this part I totally agree with you, as i also don't like the feel of TB ALC, i cannot tell where i hit the ball on my blade at all, and i guess as you mentioned, TB ALC is stiffer and harder, hence my hit is more consistent despite being sub-optimal.

That's why i thought about inner carbon type of blades that provide more feeling. But your point on the speed of the carbon helps with sub-optimal strokes make sense also.

However, i think that 5 plies wood blade (like azalea) may be too slow for my body who is in late thirties and rarely exercise before this table tennis adventure, i do run regularly though, just not have much upper body exercise that my core strength and arm cannot generate that much power.

Gathering other people comment in this thread, and I want to buy a blade for long term use, may be a 7 plies wood blade similar to my current but of higher quality and more comfortable handle, or soft carbon slower blade is ideal? There are too many around that I am not sure what to look at, any recommendation is greatly appreciated

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Again, I am 55, almost 56. I have no problem using a 5 ply wood blade. You are 2 decades younger than me. I don't see that this should be an issue. So, perhaps it is only an issue in your mind's conception of things and not in reality.

And this too is why, us seeing video footage of you would really help.

It is really like you are asking us to tell you what shoe size you need without letting us see your feet.

 

[thomas.pong]

I'm also in my late thirties and in average shape and my Primorac OFF- thin 5-ply blade is plenty fast enough when I use my body right to generate a good stroke. Control, feel and spin are much more important than speed: we can all figure out a way to do something faster but only when we know how to do it perfectly at slower and increasing speeds first.

One year is nothing in TT terms. You just need more practice and things will click a bit at a time, it's the same for everyone. Once you use your legs and core more and learn to coordinate your movements and timing, you'll be able to generate plenty speed on your own without needing a fast blade. Whereas it'll be extremely hard to gain a great feel for the ball with a harder or fast blade.

Also, don't shy away from playing games with fellow club members, even if higher level than you, that's the only way you will gain in-game experience and will slowly be able to do in games what you can produce in practice.

 

[Tango K]

People always say the same - I’m too slow, This is just my hobby so I have to cheat, I too belly-up, I have this shoulder pain etc. Etc.
Even my training partner, who looks like Van Damme to me, thinks he needs more “power”.
It cannot take less than 1 year to learn that power in table tennis comes from speed and precision, not Newton kind of power. Speed comes from your flex, which is unfortunately somewhat opposite of Newton power, at least at the beginning. And precision comes from your mind.

A blade that is faster than you can understand how fast it is tend to slow down development of those exact two things. Worse, I’ve seen this in club players again and again. Since in real game if you go too much into the ball, it’s off the table, too little, it’s weak, you subsconsciously get very stiff (opposite of flex) to tame the power of the blade. You both slow yourself down a lot and overuse your muscles (to hold yourself back).

Another bigger problem of thinking about a faster blade is that over time, you always use a portion of your brain “optimizing”/blaming your equipment.

You just gotta trust that a slow blade actually makes you faster and things easier.