Video Footage Safe Thread

[UpSideDownCarl]

This is just more analysis: from NL's video of Dima and Boll:

Basic drive: backswing and followthrough:

Notice, on a basic hit, Dima's racket is the height of the top of the bounce. The followthrough is in front of him and his whole arm is still to the right of center.

Now the loop: Backswing, adjust of height of racket to the ball, and followthrough:

The backswing is below the ball, before he takes the stroke, he adjust the racket up so it is not as far below the ball (a circular movement backswing), the followthrough, his elbow is below his shoulder and on his right side, his racket is in front of the right side of his face, so he has not crossed over. If he was swinging bigger he might cross over. He also might start lower.

But the actual point is, he is adjusting the stroke, the backswing, the followthrough, to the context. When he is counterhitting the stroke is small and the racket starts at the height of the top of the bounce (back, not down). On the loop, he starts lower, sees the racket is a little too low for the shot he is about to make and adjusts it up (in this particular loop) and the followthrough is bigger than the counterhit but not supper big.

And part of the idea is, if you always backswing to one spot and that one spot is very low, then it is hard to adjust the stroke for the ball that is coming at you and the shot you would like to make.

So, not about specific technique. But about the idea that if only one plane of trajectory is wired into your muscle memory for the stroke, you will always backswing low even if the shot you are making would be better served with a stroke that is angled more forward than up. The plane of the stroke should be easy to adjust without changing much in the mechanics. When you play against a real person and are reading spin and adjusting to the ball that is coming to you for every shot, this should just happen automatically.

 

[Dominikk85]

I currently can't play in a club bc I'm quite involved into coaching baseball.

I play 1 or 2 times a week with 2 friends one of them who used to play at a club albeit at a low level. Also about 2 times per week for 20 minutes with the robot before work as the facility is on my commute way.

Club would be better of course although the club in my city only does real training for kids while the adults mostly play games (kinda low level league teams).

I thought of another constraint of holding free arm across the chest and rest elbow on fingertips until contact with the ball. Would that work?

Flat hit

​​​https://youtube.com/shorts/68uMNdeaK88?feature=share
Loop

https://youtube.com/shorts/Vmt9TgjmOqw?feature=share

 

[NDH]

I currently can't play in a club bc I'm quite involved into coaching baseball.

I play 1 or 2 times a week with 2 friends one of them who used to play at a club albeit at a low level. Also about 2 times per week for 20 minutes with the robot before work as the facility is on my commute way.

Club would be better of course although the club in my city only does real training for kids while the adults mostly play games (kinda low level league teams).

I thought of another constraint of holding free arm across the chest and rest elbow on fingertips until contact with the ball. Would that work?

The bat on your flat hit is still too angled.

You are almost need to have it dead flat when connecting with the ball, and just sort of slap it through......

Also.... Relax. You are super tight trying to do it too perfectly.

It needs to flow like a river.....

 

[NDH]

This is quite good, as it's pen hold as well.....

Slow it down as much as you can (0.25 I think).

Watch the connection to the ball at the start, and look how flat the bat is (flatter on Harimoto, but that's possibly the fact he's playing shake hold, and Xu Xin is playing a FH on the BH side).

 

[Dominikk85]

Btw how can Dima use his forearm to accelerate when he already starts at 90 degrees? The Chinese start like almost straight and then bend to 90 but Timo and Dima already start around 90 or maybe a tad above. I don't quite understand

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Btw how can Dima use his forearm to accelerate when he already starts at 90 degrees? The Chinese start like almost straight and then bend to 90 but Timo and Dima already start around 90 or maybe a tad above. I don't quite understand

The shoulder joint is complicated, the arm movement is complicated. You are oversimplifying.

Internal and external rotation of the shoulder joint, while the elbow remains stable is part of the forearm swinging forward and back. It is not just elbow bending and straightening that moves the forearm if the elbow is stable. The shoulder joint is the most complicated joint in the body. It can do abduction/adduction, flexion/extension, internal-rotation/external rotation. And then the elbow can do flexion/extension. Flexion/extension of the elbow joint plus internal-rotation/external rotation of the shoulder joint is usually what is referred to as forearm snap. Most people only observe one part of that.

This is too long to explain. But, I will simply say, you are missing something in your analysis of the movement.

And, here: Backswing and end position for ML on a counterhit:

How much did the angle of his elbow seem to change?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

In those photos of ML above, the backswing is external rotation of the upper arm and the followthrough has the arm in neutral rotation so it has rotated from external in to neutral. It is also more complicated than that because, as they contact, each of them does bend their elbow a little more but the arm relaxes after contact. Ma Long bends the elbow and releases the elbow more than Dima. But they both have the elbow joint in action a little before the point of contact.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

BTW: I am a movement analyst. I am looking at some of this from that perspective. But if you think more along the lines of how NDH and NextLevel are presenting the information to you, you are likely better off in the long run. More relaxed, different people can generate the stroke with different mechanics and it can still be a good stroke, starting with basics, angle of racket, rather than thinking joint actions and specifically analyzing how different players generate the stroke as though there is one right way, most likely those ideas that NL and NDH are presenting will be more useful.

My reason for posting the stills is to show that you are not seeing things exactly as they are, so how you are trying to change your stroke, sometimes comes from a misunderstanding of what you thought you saw as the mechanics rather than how you need to work on things.

In the long run, grooving the stroke, getting it relaxed and fluid, having the basic stroke compact but relaxed, learning how to stabilize the elbow position so that when you take a bigger swing, and the upper arm moves more, it is not as exaggerated as your default stroke is now, those things are valid. It is not that you want to eliminate the bigger swing where the upper arm moves more. You just are starting as the base technique leading you to an exaggerated upper arm movement: again, that is why I showed the still of your elbow above your head and the racket behind your head. That is not every stroke. But with what your base technique is at the moment, the arm movement is actually more exaggerated than your big stroke from 4 feet back should be. And it is possible that some of this has to do with the training you are showing.

Is it possible to film a game scenario so we can see what happens with your strokes when you are actually responding to the ball that is coming at you from a live opponent rather than during training? Your strokes in that scenario could actually be better than what we have seen in training because your touch is good and there are many things you are doing well.

 

[Lula]

We have a chinese coached that used short pimples so maybe he is biased but he thinks as long as you get spin in the forehand the technique is pretty good. He have an extreme focus on feet and legs first hand. Almost culture chock when i met him, we europeans focus on the arm. I tend to agreee, as long as you get good results in how to ball is going the technique is good. Spin comes from the forearm so if you want the forearm to move well you should try to get spin. Try doing a lot of loop loop or half long balls. Also standing and bouncing the ball at the floor or looping while squatting or sitting on the floor. As long as the ball is a bit lower than the net you need to create arc, by doing spin with the forearm.

I think it is almost easier to do multiball or robot and try a bit and try to look at the results of the ball, how much spin and try to adjust after that. Of course it is good to try look at pros and discuss technique but i believe it is hard to become better if we look t0o micro. It is like trying to much equipment or change grip. Feels like we get lost in the djungle haha.

To kids some coaches teach "aye aye captain" and do a salute to learn where to stop.

Keep up the hard work.

 

[Der_Echte]

Everyone has presented info that is more articulate and better organized than many pro coaches' TT books.

I can relate my own personal journey and spin and landing the ball.

I got professional guidance a little bit in Korea for 4 years 20 minutes 2x a week... was mostly footwork lessons and physical complex single ball drills requiring repeated explosive movement and power hitting bang bang bang. (Ironically, it took me 10 years to instinctively use this footwork) (What a stubborn dumb-azz is the dude named Der_Echte !!)

I never really focused on what a perfect stroke was. What got me to improve quality and consistency in both practice and in match play was getting better at judging the ball, getting into enough of a position on balance, timing the impact to be in the center of the strike zone, center of the bat... as well as learning how to be relaxed and control the timed sequence of explosions that generated, amplified, and transmitted power... especially the use of fingers and hand at the end.

Once I got this better and could read the opponent's impact better, then I could make adjustments to the ball to make it do what I wanted or what I had to do if I was not quite in position or exactly on time.

I have always said to any player I could get to listen that in EVERY SHOT, a player needs to discern the opponent's impact and before the ball travels even a foot, must KNOW where the ball is going when with what spin, vector, timing, elevation, change of elevation... and KNOW what shot he/she wants to play so that the player can get in position on time on balance leveraged to SET THE STRIKE ZONE to impact the ball at a decent height in the effective hitting zone....

Improving in the things in the paragraph above along with better depth of impact on the center of the bat has gotten me to more places than anything without obsessing over what is a perfect technique. . I only worried about basic foundational things about the stroke like keeping the height of backswing realistic with what ball is coming...

If one can do a good enough job of that on paragraph about discerning early and deciding/setting the strike zone, then one has a little room for not being exact and still make a quality shot consistent.

 

[Der_Echte]

I do not want to edit the post and make all the paragraph breaks, but would add that when opponent impacts that ball and before the ball travels a foot, one must SUBCONSCIOUSLY have figured this out. Tring to consciously think about anything more complex than wait... NOW (for just one example) is simply mental overload and will not result in many shots made.

 

[Der_Echte]

And Carl as an analyst, would heavily feel urges to ban some of Der_Echte's BH and write some of it in stone. I need to visit Cal again when he is not busy, a lot of my BH has big time improved along with FH since my days of NYC adventures.

 

[Dominikk85]

I think I don't want to over analyze it but it can be good to know what I think happens is not what actually happens.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

A Lot of useful stuff in this thread.
I think the vid of ZJK perfectly illustrates the legs driving the relaxed arm to brush upwards past the back of the ball. One can readily imagine that if there was any more backspin on the ball ZJK would have to lean backwards to execute to execute a more vertical stroke.
This is a classic example of what one of my coaches called the "lifting drive" where the drive is slow and spinny. If an amateur was doing it then probably to lift Joo's chop the arc would be even higher over the net.
On the other hand if Joo were to send his chop back higher then a "Sinking drive" would be possible where the attacker throws his weight forward to brush forward over the top of the ball with the ball arcing low and diving to the floor.
One can practice this solo from by:-
1 :-bounce the ball on floor so that peak is below the table and brush the ball finely so that a high arc strong spin lands on the table. Note that the essence of this stroke is transfer the weight upward
2:- from bh corner bounce the on the table with 12 inch peak and try to drive the ball purely forward.
just for fun here is rsm just throwing his body weight at the ball. if you can even 1% of his uninhibited attitude and relaxation your fh will improve
rsm throwing his weight around

actually I couldn't find a satisfactory coaching clip
so instead enjoy kts doing the same
kts showing how its done

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Everyone has presented info that is more articulate and better organized than many pro coaches' TT books.

I can relate my own personal journey and spin and landing the ball.

I got professional guidance a little bit in Korea for 4 years 20 minutes 2x a week... was mostly footwork lessons and physical complex single ball drills requiring repeated explosive movement and power hitting bang bang bang. (Ironically, it took me 10 years to instinctively use this footwork) (What a stubborn dumb-azz is the dude named Der_Echte !!)

I never really focused on what a perfect stroke was. What got me to improve quality and consistency in both practice and in match play was getting better at judging the ball, getting into enough of a position on balance, timing the impact to be in the center of the strike zone, center of the bat... as well as learning how to be relaxed and control the timed sequence of explosions that generated, amplified, and transmitted power... especially the use of fingers and hand at the end.

Once I got this better and could read the opponent's impact better, then I could make adjustments to the ball to make it do what I wanted or what I had to do if I was not quite in position or exactly on time.

I have always said to any player I could get to listen that in EVERY SHOT, a player needs to discern the opponent's impact and before the ball travels even a foot, must KNOW where the ball is going when with what spin, vector, timing, elevation, change of elevation... and KNOW what shot he/she wants to play so that the player can get in position on time on balance leveraged to SET THE STRIKE ZONE to impact the ball at a decent height in the effective hitting zone....

Improving in the things in the paragraph above along with better depth of impact on the center of the bat has gotten me to more places than anything without obsessing over what is a perfect technique. . I only worried about basic foundational things about the stroke like keeping the height of backswing realistic with what ball is coming...

If one can do a good enough job of that on paragraph about discerning early and deciding/setting the strike zone, then one has a little room for not being exact and still make a quality shot consistent.

This is really an excellent post. There are a lot of layers to this content.

 

[Dominikk85]

Btw how far should the elbow be away from the side laterally? Is it better to be close or more away.

 

[NextLevel]

Btw how far should the elbow be away from the side laterally? Is it better to be close or more away.

It is easier to answer these questions if you just practice quickly, post video, get feedback. Usually the topspin takes the form of a modified hit. So a topspin that comes from a modified hit is more natural to you than a topspin that tried to copy how you think a topspin should look.

 

[Lycanthrope]

I think I don't want to over analyze it but it can be good to know what I think happens is not what actually happens.

That is the reason why I believe you have made good questions, which benefits all the adult learners.I have seen many discussions about FH drive and FH loop online and offline, but all those discussions didn't go in-depth enough. Most questioners don't want to keep asking which may make them looks stubborn, and most answers stopped at "Don't be too detailed, over analyzing will make the thing worse". That answer is true, but for an adult learner, this answer is not persuasive. Adult learners are not like kids, they have to think before action. Most adult questioners accepted that simple answer, stopped asking, showed their respect to the experts but they still kept over-analyzing themselves and got everything wrong. They need to bring all the questions out, get the answers and be satisfied. Then they can start practicing without overthinking more.

 

[NextLevel]

That is the reason why I believe you have made good questions, which benefits all the adult learners.I have seen many discussions about FH drive and FH loop online and offline, but all those discussions didn't go in-depth enough. Most questioners don't want to keep asking which may make them looks stubborn, and most answers stopped at "Don't be too detailed, over analyzing will make the thing worse". That answer is true, but for an adult learner, this answer is not persuasive. Adult learners are not like kids, they have to think before action. Most adult questioners accepted that simple answer, stopped asking, showed their respect to the experts but they still kept over-analyzing themselves and got everything wrong. They need to bring all the questions out, get the answers and be satisfied. Then they can start practicing without overthinking more.

I would agree with this if

1)I was working with Dominik in person and
2) if table tennis was a fundamentally intellectual activity.

However table tennis is a fundamentally physical activity. And if is hard to correct physical imperfections that you intuit purely by explaining things in words. The truth is that one can ask questions but in part, one needs to find a teacher that one trusts to help, even if the trust is obtained by getting satisfactory answer to questions, and work with them, almost always in person. No one gets much better without the right environment and someone taking a strong interest in their game.

The simplest thing though it is hard and annoying is to always do something that allows for feedback when asking questions. But you must always provide some material so the questions are always about something. And I think this has been one of Dominik's strengths. It is just hard to accelerate thr feedback cycle over the internet. He has to invest some time in competent coaching or hitting with someone in person.

 

[Lycanthrope]

I would agree with this if

1)I was working with Dominik in person and
2) if table tennis was a fundamentally intellectual activity.

However table tennis is a fundamentally physical activity. And if is hard to correct physical imperfections that you intuit purely by explaining things in words. The truth is that one can ask questions but in part, one needs to find a teacher that one trusts to help, even if the trust is obtained by getting satisfactory answer to questions, and work with them, almost always in person. No one gets much better without the right environment and someone taking a strong interest in their game.

The simplest thing though it is hard and annoying is to always do something that allows for feedback when asking questions. But you must always provide some material so the questions are always about something. And I think this has been one of Dominik's strengths. It is just hard to accelerate thr feedback cycle over the internet. He has to invest some time in competent coaching or hitting with someone in person.

All that you are saying is true.

However, the psychological activity in adult learners makes the thing more complicated. All the questioners bear one thing in mind, 'I don't want to be stubborn and annoying, I don't want to leave a bad impression'. That idea put off the questioners to get enough support to stop over-analyzing. The fact is that most adult learner don't access to a coach in person, so they have to find out the answers from others, or figure it out themselves. If they can't get the answer from a reliable source, they will figure out a wrong answer themselves.

I said 'Enough support to stop over-analyzing', I mean 'give them answer or explain to them why this question can not get a certain answer'. For example, Dominik is asking how far the elbow be away from body. If this question cannot get an answer, I think Dominik wants to see why it won't get an answer. If he didn't get the answer, I think he may try to work it out himself, but he may get it wrong. The best answer is to find a coach and the coach can work with him, but the question is whether Dominik still ask questions online when he has already got a good coach?

Same question coming again and again is annoying, but if all questions come out once for all, it won't be annoying. That is why I asked if it is possible to make the discussion in a way which can be easily referenced to, so that all the questions in future regarding it can be guided to this discussion.

Your answers are excellent. Thank you