WTT 2024 vs 2025

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imo both point system has their own pros and cons.
the problem is 20+ events a year.
i feel 15 should be the cap, for players health.

mind you, CNT played the less and the head coach is saying they are tired...
just imagine those playing (and traveling) way more, some of it is near double of that of CNT players
As others have pointed out, CNT players almost always reach the later rounds and thus have more on-court time than the rest (like how they showed it on-screen for WTTC 2023), so you need to factor in both number of events and number of matches/games played to see the whole picture. If one wants to get anal about it, then the difficulty of match-ups must be taken into account as well but then there'd be no end to it.

As can be seen below for the top 16, despite playing 5 events less, SYS still played more matches than Harimoto did. Even though CIC played more events, she still only played roughly the same number of matches as most CNT players. Same for Polcanova and Szocs. Ito has played the least number of matches as a non-CNT player but has bitched about it the most. Diaz has played just 1 more match than Ito. Only SYB can claim that she has played double the amount of CNT players.

https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/2024_44_SEN_WS.html
International events and matches played and last played in 2024 as of this writing:
SYS - 13 events, WT of ATTC 2024
9+4+9+8+5+6+10+1+5+14+5+10+7=93 matches
WMY - 12 events, China Smash 2024
9+4+3+10+5+6+6+2+5+8+4+7=69 matches
WYD - 12 events, WTT CS Montpellier 2024
3+6+6+4+3+7+12+4+5+9+10+2=71 matches
CM - 9 events, Paris 2024
8+8+9+4+5+10+2+4+10=60 matches
Hayata - 14 events, WS of ATTC 2024 (but it was W/O, so Paris 2024)
5+9+4+3+4+8+9+9+3+9+3+4+11+1=82 matches
Harimoto - 18 events, WTT CS Montpellier 2024
3+6+4+2+5+5+3+7+3+4+5+3+6+2+4+5+19+5=91 matches
CXT - 12 events, WTT CS Montpellier 2024
7+2+5+3+5+10+3+2+3+9+10+2=61 matches
Ito - 14 events, WTT CS Montpellier 2024
2+4+2+2+4+3+1+2+2+5+2+4+8+3=44 matches
CIC - 16 events, WTT CS Montpellier 2024

3+3+8+8+6+2+4+4+1+3+2+3+6+3+7+4=67 matches
SYB - 17 events, WTT CS Montpellier 2024
5+12+12+5+10+1+3+7+7+3+5+8+7+10+14+15+3=127 matches
Odo - 10 events, WTT CS Montpellier 2024

15+6+5+10+9+8+5+8+12+5=83 matches
Hirano - 14 events, WTT CS Montpellier 2024
8+4+1+4+4+4+2+6+3+11+1+2+5+2=57 matches
Polcanova - 12 events, ETTC 2024
6+4+9+8+3+3+6+1+1+4+4+16=65 matches
QTY - 7 events, WTT CS Montpellier 2024
9+4+4+4+4+9+4=38 matches
Diaz - 16 events, WTT CS Montpellier 2024
2+8+2+2+4+1+1+2+3+3+1+3+2+4+5+2=45 matches
Szocs - 15 events, WTT CS Montpellier 2024
7+3+8+5+3+3+4+4+1+4+7+1+4+13+2=69 matches
 
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The europeans play WAY more than the CNT: national league from october to may/june the year after + euro leagues like Champion's League or the ETTU Cup, it's WAY more than the tiny CSL "parenthesis" in July. You can add 20 to 30 matches to Bernie and Sofia then.

Of course there's also a load management: the Lebruns won't be in the Montpellier squad for the 2nd round of french Pro A this week at Cholet. La Romagne thought it was a good idea to book the Meilleraie basketball arena because of the Lebruns (capacity: 5 000 spectators). The father and Nathanel Molin made clear the Pro A wasn't their priority, nor having to fight in champion's league in the near future. France is more individuals friendly than Germany though: Quadri Aruna was worrying about his contract in TTBL 1 because of the events calendar in the WTT, he probably choose to play in France for that reason. The TTBL1 is exhausting for guys like Franziska, Anton Kaalberg, Darko Jorgic or Dang Qiu: as team leaders they have play 2 matches per round + the same in european champion's league. At some point Timo and Dima have been way way over the 100 matches/year mark.
 
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OTOH Enzo , and more so Damien are well past their prime.
BTW Enzo is creating a lot of popular coaching content on YT / TG / IG / mailing-list and is organizing TT camps in France
Damien Provost for sure, Enzo is only 29, Steffen Mengel was also past his prime and then at 35 he made some ridiculous WTT performances... on his home soil or Portugal, less charges.

Enzo can't count on the FFTT and Insep anymore since his injury in 2022, not in the national squad anymore, so he has to make a living outside of the WTT, that's why he now plays the TT Star Series in Czech Republic + the MLTT again.

Liam Pitchford is now on that same way: MLTT + Pro A, as Benedek Olah : Pro A + MLTT, you can't say Liam is not competitive anymore, he's still in the top 50.

It's a trend since many years now that the WTT entered. The money is put in the show, not in the prize money, the FFTT couldn't afford the prize money for Montpellier this year, that means no sponsor = no event, the FFTT yearly budget is 7.4 millions € only. The problem is the official sponsors are chinese only for the WTT, it does not help for the globalization of the sport.
 
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says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
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By the same token, CNT players train way more at home. It's not like they just sit there.

In an article by Table tennis World from 2015, WCT and Ho Kwan Kit shared their experience training with the CNT and how they were overwhelmed by their training volume and intensity.

Ito has also visited a training camp in China in 2017 and was amazed at the way they trained. During World Cup 2020, she also sparred with CM and was shocked after learning that she trained triple her hours every day.

As Li Sun put it earlier, CNT players are now transitioning to the model of 以赛代练/using competitions as training.

港乒两新星跟随国乒训练 刚练几天就累得起不来床
https://sports.sina.cn/others/pingpang/2015-03-05/detail-ichmifpx9455513.d.html
 
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By the same token, CNT players train way more at home. It's not like they just sit there.

In an article by Table tennis World from 2015, WCT and Ho Kwan Kit shared their experience training with the CNT and how they were overwhelmed by their training volume and intensity.

Ito has also visited a training camp in China in 2017 and was amazed at the way they trained. During World Cup 2020, she also sparred with CM and was shocked after learning that she trained like double her hours every day.

As Li Sun put it earlier, CNT players are now transitioning to the model of 以赛代练/using competitions as training.

港乒两新星跟随国乒训练 刚练几天就累得起不来床
https://sports.sina.cn/others/pingpang/2015-03-05/detail-ichmifpx9455513.d.html
That's why it makes no sense to argue about who does more matches, or more training. training in CNT is mandatory, that's for sure, but to make a living in Europe you have to be competitive in competitions, and that requires... also training. Do you think euro players sleep between the leagues rounds ? When they're out in WTT they go back to Europe, have to endure the jet lag because most of the valuable WTT tournaments are in Asia, train, leagues, planes, hotels, train, WTT, plane, jet lag, train, league.

I'd like the compare the hours of jet lag CNT athletes have to endure vs euro ones, that would be way more informative.

LSD playing too much... ho boy... he mostly played in Asia after a 2 months vacation... sorry CNT training camp with no hotel, no plane, no jet lag, no media duties. Plus he had 1 week out of business more than the euro athletes before Montpellier.
 
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yeah, that is why my eyes was in disbelief when they said LSD had too many matches.

I see that chinese fans like to include CNT's training as how busy they are.
well, its at home, comfort zone - no time zone, no traveling, no opponent fans booing on them etc.

just look at Beijing Smash and 1 airplane ticket afterwards, with small time zone different and the whole domino collapse at ATTC.
I think CNT needs more training on timezone and traveling, since back to back is the norm for WTT as well as every other table tennis professional player out there.
CNT need more back to back training with little to zero acclimatizing or pre tournament adjustments. Or maybe they need to be spoil to preform? I think if this is CNT weakness, the leadership needs to train them on the weaknesses before zeio calling them to retire.

staying put for 1 or 2 extra days, versus traveling double the work load.... its easy to factor in how traveling is so taxing on the body. if ATTC 2024 wasn't evidence enough on back to back, for CNT. they should really think hard about it for a moment and stop finding excuses
 
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says Shoo...nothing to see here. - zeio
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By your logic, to make a living in China they also have to be competitive in training in order to earn opportunities to play international competitions.

And if that were the case for Europe, Gatien and Rosskopf wouldn't have made the comments that their players needed to work harder. Feel free to convince them.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/2019s-winner.19974/post-255949
Gatien, who retired in 2004, lamented: "In the European table tennis top league, the best players are still the veterans. Currently only 2 countries in Europe are committed to training table tennis rookies, Germany and France. Our players have talent, but talent alone is not enough. There are so many good coaches and good players in China. The training time of the players is so long. For players to enter the national team, they must fight through layers of competition. Our European players have it far easier. They have to change their mindsets, only by working harder and being more creative can they rival China."

The Chinese table tennis team is in closed training for the Olympics. Gatien said: "The two months of training can help the Chinese team adjust to the best state during the Olympics. However, the European table tennis system is different from China. The athletes have contracts with the club. Every week, we have to play for the club. There is no way to prepare systematically. In order to keep up with the pace of preparation for the Chinese team, the table tennis system in European countries needs to change."


https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...sskopf-working-to-revert-it.21060/post-274705
TTW: The German team is still recognized as the most powerful team in Europe. What is the current status in terms of the echelon?

Rosskopf: We have Boll and Ovtcharov on the team for the time being, so we are still a strong team in Europe and in the world, but beyond them, the German team actually has a generation gap. Due to the reform of the educational system, the enlightenment period and growth period of German teenagers are now postponed, so the younger generation of players generally lack sufficient training time. Most people start their careers after graduating at 18 years old. Boll and I both joined the Bundesliga when we were 14 years old. The training of the reserve echelon is not only a problem for the German team, but also a problem for the entire European table tennis. Nowadays, young players have a lot of hobbies, and they all hope to get early results, but they have neglected hard training and techniques. We are actively working in hopes of changing this situation.
 
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By your logic, to make a living in China they also have to be competitive in training in order to earn opportunities to play international competitions.

And if that were the case for Europe, Gatien and Rosskopf wouldn't have made the comments that their players needed to work harder. Feel free to convince them.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/2019s-winner.19974/post-255949



https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...sskopf-working-to-revert-it.21060/post-274705
lol
why you bringing out 20 year old stuff for failure in 2024??
CNT is great 20 years ago, no one is arguing about that!
 
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CNT is one of the countries that cherry pick ITTF events to take part in.
Same with it juniors - hardly play world junior circuit back then
because they were too busy for training or preparing for big events.

new ranking point system has forced CNT players to play more, or the seeding could be affected.
we have seen this with WJTTC seeding and more juniors playing.

and the new ranking system forces CNT to learn that loosing is okay, but they must win at the right moments.
because loosing still give you points, unlike the old system where it takes points away from you.

end of the day, they still take part in fewer events, travel lesser and have little to no back to back experience.
 
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lol
why you bringing out 20 year old stuff for failure in 2024??
CNT is great 20 years ago, no one is arguing about that!
20 years ago? This is where your agenda gets exposed again. Gatien's interview is from 2012. Rosskopf's interview is from 2019.

Felix started playing penhold around 2010 after he watched Chen Jian playing in the leagues. So Gatien's comment is relevant.
 
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This is what I was thinking after considering Achys points in post 2. It is a bit of both and 'can' the 2 be organised to compliment each other is the current question, unless we consider a complete change of direction.
Comparing to outdoor sports like Tennis and golf is a bit apples to Oranges, TT will always be limited by venue size.
Tennis and Golf exist in our culture as elitest sports where membership at clubs the world over is a coveted badge and display of status and so these sports have their Heroes who earn MILLIONS just for hitting balls, and there are millions of wealthy people the world over buying the clothes, buying the equipment and spending thousands to travel and watch these events. It's a different animal.

Table Tennis will never have this status so money will always be an issue compared to these teo.
It's more comparable to Darts or Snooker, existing in the sub-culture, and to that measure TT is doing a good job recently of bigging up the entertainment and has really turned these events into something different than before.

Growth though has to start in schools because kids are not going to see the game on TV or have it marketed to them via some 'hero worship' avenue. You gotta brainwash the kids through fun rather than propaganda and status but it's probably never gonna be 'cool' and will always lose players as quickly as it gets them.
I think school leagues, district leagues and the social community elements are (rather unfashionably in this modern world) it's best route to any form of growth and success and it has to catch fire in the UK or the US (large cultural exporters) for it to have a chance on TV like Darts and Snooker do.
It's a long long game to successfully grow it from here and I would doubt that those heading the key organisations have the foresight nor will governments give the funds to schools or communities that are constantly competing with other sports anyway. Just take Ireland alone, Gaelic Football and Hurling are the biggest sports in the country and nobody outside of Ireland even knows what they are! And that's before you list Football, Rugby Golf, Tennis, Snooker, Swimming etc.
So leagues in smaller countries seem decades away rather than years😕 although I would wish to be wrong!!
It is currently at a good size globally though, even just consolidating and maintaining this while streaming the events (smashes, majors etc) for the next ten yrs would be a good success.
Some sports just don't have the capacity for big money across a large playing base to large audiences.
So keep buying more rubbers, blades and balls than you need because the games success depends on YOU and I funding the sponsorship from the large TT companies!!!
Well, I think the players can manage that themselves and not get into the trap of over playing WTT.
top player only have 10 events forced participation on them.

The 6 champions is good ranking points even from having 1 win and loosing the next round.
If have 2 QF finish and the rest of R16 finish, that is (175 x 2 + 90 x 4) 710 points.
and say 2 more Smash at R32 (60 x 2), this will push the player to 830 points or WR30+/-

Top 20 needs 1400~1500 points, so will need some QF/SF points (350 or 700 per smash/champion).
Top 10 needs 2800-3000 points, so will need a lot more QF/SF points.
The feeders 125 or container 400 is too slow to get there.
Maybe star contender 600 is a bit more attractive.

So the top players can stay highly ranked by just focusing on the 10 mandatory and aim to do well there.

Then Finals, WTTC, World Cup
so say 13 events a year, one 1 or 2 continentals. That is how I got my number of 15.

The mandatory WTT is about 1 per month from what I see in my 2025 WTT Schedule.
So there will be some conflict with club scheduling.

I think where I wish WTT should come in, is to have a WTT cup championships.

Top clubs - based on weigh scale to see how many teams per continent to have a top 16 clubs teams tournament.
I think this will have more commercial value than world teams to be honest.

I think there should be 3 tiers
1: Country versus Country - World Champs - 2 per year as per right now / OG.

Scrap World Cup for
2: Club Championship
3: WTT events (like Tennis tours)


Maybe WTT can change 8 matches for world to 6, and allow more "leave" to bring now 15 international matches to 10~12 and to put more money and profit making from club championships.
 
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20 years ago? This is where your agenda gets exposed again. Gatien's interview is from 2012. Rosskopf's interview is from 2019.

Felix started playing penhold around 2010 after he watched Chen Jian playing in the leagues. So Gatien's comment is relevant.
lol, ok
i didn't bother read 10% of your post or click your link

but yeah, you can bring out as much of 2019 or 2015 or 2013 you want.
this thread is about 2024-2025, so stay on point please!
 
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Well, I think the players can manage that themselves and not get into the trap of over playing WTT.
top player only have 10 events forced participation on them.

The 6 champions is good ranking points even from having 1 win and loosing the next round.
If have 2 QF finish and the rest of R16 finish, that is (175 x 2 + 90 x 4) 710 points.
and say 2 more Smash at R32 (60 x 2), this will push the player to 830 points or WR30+/-

Then Finals, WTTC, World Cup
so say 13 events a year, one 1 or 2 continentals. That is how I got my number of 15.

The mandatory WTT is about 1 per month from what I see in my 2025 WTT Schedule.
So there will be some conflict with club scheduling.

I think where I wish WTT should come in, is to have a WTT cup championships.

Top clubs - based on weigh scale to see how many teams per continent to have a top 16 clubs teams tournament.
I think this will have more commercial value than world teams to be honest.

I think there should be 3 tiers
1: Country versus Country - World Champs - 2 per year as per right now / OG.

Scrap World Cup for
2: Club Championship
3: WTT events (like Tennis tours)


Maybe WTT can change 8 matches for world to 6, and allow more "leave" to bring now 15 international matches to 10~12 and to put more money and profit making from club championships.
I really like this club championship idea. I’d be like champions league in football. I’d really love to watch a random Chinese club go against a Bundesliga club.
Other than that a consistent yearly ITTF World Cup would be nice.
BTW, about the ranking points, I don’t think such low results would put somebody at around world ranking 30 since this system will inflate points so it’s not really comparable to the current ranking points. It’s already astonishing that SYS has 10k+ points.
 
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I really like this club championship idea. I’d be like champions league in football. I’d really love to watch a random Chinese club go against a Bundesliga club.
Other than that a consistent yearly ITTF World Cup would be nice.
BTW, about the ranking points, I don’t think such low results would put somebody at around world ranking 30 since this system will inflate points so it’s not really comparable to the current ranking points. It’s already astonishing that SYS has 10k+ points.
They still want to do the Waldner Cup this year, Asia vs the rest of the world.
 
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I should stress that I backed F. Lebrun back in 2021 when he had just started out in senior events.

Yes, Felix won in Montpellier, but you have to factor in the help of the home crowd. The Lebrun brothers were on a mission as it was the first WTT event held in their hometown. However, his loss to Duda after a 3-1 lead at ETTC 2024 the previous week should not be swept under the rug. He was the top seed and top favorite.

Likewise, LYJ's 4th place finish stole the spotlight after Tokyo 2020 whereas Harimoto's R16 finish became a meme. 3 years later, LYJ is way behind Harimoto now. LYJ became a favorite for Paris 2024 after winning WTT CS Frankfurt 2023 and what happened next? He couldn't even secure top 4 seeding in MS for Paris 2024 whereas Harimoto hard-carried JPN to the 4th seed in MT at the last minute. Remember that Harimoto also won WTT CS Budapest 2022 (part of the European Summer Series) and then hit a snag in the whole of 2023 and much of 2024. Therefore, Felix winning WTT CS Montpellier 2024 should be treated with caution.

https://web.archive.org/web/2024012...9691513170&w=oSrYvzBDSazJX2JnDHe93N0wjhkvt-eJ (11/15/2021 at 9:23pm)
https://web.archive.org/web/2024012...7686900248&w=MWxarVtFhbDPlQFN8I7AslE7B6fypT1V
It shows how weak Europe is, which I've been preaching for years, when Calderano and Harimoto get mentioned in a thread about young European prospects.

The only young prospect from Europe worth keeping an eye on is Lebrun. Forget the other ones over 20. They should be competing against the world's best by now and looking ready to replace "Ovtcharov, Franziska, Gauzy, Falck, Pitchford, Freitas, etc."

https://web.archive.org/web/2024012...9691513170&w=oSrYvzBDSazJX2JnDHe93N0wjhkvt-eJ (11/17/2021 at 4:12am)
We'd be lying to ourselves if we keep saying that. Care to look up the age of those European legends in the 80s and 90s when they became world class players? The majority were between 18 and 23 at Seoul 1988. By Barcelona 1992, quite a few of them were already winning medals in the majors. By Atlanta 1996, several of them were already World Champs and/or World Cup holders. By Sydney 2000, they had already achieved enough to cement their status in table tennis history when they were washed up in their 30s.

The impression that European players mature later stems from the educational system reform, as pointed out by Rosskopf in 2019. And that's what makes Lebrun worthy of attention because he's not bogged down by that. He's on a similar trajectory as Harimoto and LYJ by starting really young, competing against players many years his senior, even scoring wins and making the main draw at 15 years and 2 months old in a senior event, which is very difficult after the World Ranking reform in 2018.

For comparison, Harimoto(then 15 and 3) and LYJ(then 17 and 1) stopped competing in junior events after the Youth Olympic Games 2018. Moregard is going to compete at the World Youth Championships this December, in the U19 event at the age of 19 and 9. Come on. To add insult to injury, Moregard is ranked even lower than Februn in the U19.

Calderano, who didn't switch to table tennis until 14, was already making a name for himself at WJTTC 2014, YOG 2014 and Rio 2016. He also stopped competing in U21 events after that Olympic games when he was eligible for another year. Think about it.
 
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I really like this club championship idea. I’d be like champions league in football. I’d really love to watch a random Chinese club go against a Bundesliga club.
Other than that a consistent yearly ITTF World Cup would be nice.
BTW, about the ranking points, I don’t think such low results would put somebody at around world ranking 30 since this system will inflate points so it’s not really comparable to the current ranking points. It’s already astonishing that SYS has 10k+ points.
Re ranking point
The higher you go, the bigger the gap to say 10 or 20.
Just have a look at what is at 30 or 20 the past year and you can have an idea of what to target for.

Or atleast that is what we are targeting to reach from 80 to 50 in terms or feeders only with one of the players
 
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