Some Inspiration for Forehand Players

[Der_Echte]

IT should really be mandatory for people to post video of their play before commenting on other people's strokes.

First - I think you just implied that TT_Rogue is a "narrow minded idiot", which was probably unintended, but hilarious nevertheless. Second, if you re-read his original comment, it did not have a single positive thing to say. None. And that was about a stroke of 2700-rated player, I am only imagining how many flaws TT_Rogue would find with Timo Boll's FH.

So, reaction of others can be summed up as "who the %^&% are you and do you have any proof that you actually know what you are talking about? ". TT forums are filled with armchair generals who wax poetically about throw angles, proper wrist action and elbow positioning. Some, if not most, are significantly worse than people they criticize. So, request to 'show your own video'" is just an easiest way to establish credibility of the speaker. If you want to argue that someone can be average player, but an excellent coach - that's fine too: share videos of someone you coached.

And yes, free internet argument goes both ways - he shared his thoughts and got some back.

Double Book 'em Danno.

 

[Der_Echte]

Well, not everybody is such an outgoing person and likes to expose himself all over the Internet.

But terrorize people? Are you really sure what you're saying, there?
Still quite handy with accusations. Have you actually read his other posts? I already wrote that, from what i've read, he tried to be as helpful as MOST others here. THIS was the first unpolite post (which still isn't an excuse for being unpolite).


And TTFrenzy, surely the license degree doesn't say all about a coaches qualities, but it at least says, he took time to study and managed to get the license.
And you don't get that just for free, you're regional federation has to invite you and you have to pay quite an amount.

I have stuck my foot in my mouth several times minimum and deserved the "Book 'em Danno" badge, so OK, dude post good contributions I forget about it in about 2 days or less.

You speaking for him carries some weight, but I still stand by Danno on that one post.

 

[Suga D]

Hahaha, it's all good from my side.

I just felt a little overreaction here and there and tried to calm down the heatwaves a bit.
Since nobody's insulting me or tryin' to call me names everythings fine. I hope i didn't insult anyone and I think we're (mostly) all grown ups in here and should be able to take criticism like men do.

I could be totally wrong, but my feeling keeps somehow telling me i'm not.

 

[Der_Echte]

Great posts, guys.

I must say, like Schlaftablette wrote before, TT-Rogue really could have said it a bit more polite. There is a german phrase saying the tone defines the music, meaning translated roughly that it depends a whole lot HOW things are said.
But NL is right, although i don't know anyone in here personally, i kinda understand, where TT-Rogue's coming from and i think, it wasn't all meant as negative as it was understood, 'cause here in germany even practice can be pretty strict. I described already how i was treated in an official competition.

So that being said, i think i've made my point clear, that i found the first reactions to his post a bit unfair.

I hope TT-Rogue can explain a bit, if he reads all this. After all i played the advocate by not knowing him personally, but pure conclusions from his previous posts.

By the way, if SchlaffTablette is who I believe he is... dude is 2300 USATT minimum, likely higher.

 

[NextLevel]

Well, not everybody is such an outgoing person and likes to expose himself all over the Internet.

But terrorize people? Are you really sure what you're saying, there?
Still quite handy with accusations. Have you actually read his other posts? I already wrote that, from what i've read, he tried to be as helpful as MOST others here. THIS was the first unpolite post (which still isn't an excuse for being unpolite).


And TTFrenzy, surely the license degree doesn't say all about a coaches qualities, but it at least says, he took time to study and managed to get the license.
And you don't get that just for free, you're regional federation has to invite you and you have to pay quite an amount.

Then ask him to apologize for it. Stop saying that because he helps people that we ARE UNFAIR. We don't know him from Adam. That you do is helpful and carries weight with us, but that is no reason for him to be rude. It's not like him and Matt are buddies.

 

[Archosaurus]

Although the stroke's not perfect nor is it exactly average by any means (Average is bad, by the way) we need to remember that stroke technique really doesn't matter terribly if the rest of your game's not on point.

There are far lower rated players by the hundreds of thousands in the world with a better stroke than this guy, but they might not be solid enough to always get it out. Meanwhile, if he is 2700 USATT, it means he doesn't have his head up his behind, so he's actually competent in setting up the shot.

It's fast and spinny enough (Not as fast or spinny as it's made out to be, though. Could be lack of glue for all I know.) to be able to hit through top players if the positioning is right, and if he's trying to go play in the top hundreds, he doesn't 'only' need to work on his forehand technique. I somehow think his coach already has the small problems in his technique figured out.

Still quite funny how when someone who is clearly a better player with good technique performs a stroke, it has all these problems, but when 'you' or 'I' perform it, we're the entire CNT in terms of technique perfection.

 

[TT_Rogue]

Oh my god guys^.^. What is going on. I think my comment sounded written much more harsh than it was intended to . The comment with the cap was more ment like a jokingly introduction. But when i read such big words as "inspiration for all forehand players" i expect a flawless technique, because i got quite a technique fetish . Why would i not criticise the technique? Im also criticising the technique of Zhang Jike.(Ah and yes i dont like to watch Timo Boll because his forehand technique is crap ) If just people are allowed to criticise others who are better players then just Ma Long would be actually allowed to train everybody. Why did you take that offensive? I didnt not say that you are doing bad work or something. And i also didnt say that this is guy is not a good player. And clearly you dont have to have a perfect technqiue to be top.
How exactly do i have to understand USATT? When you say 2000 points USATT what is it transfered to Germany?
And yes im actually afraid to show my ugly face to you guys, my own technique has actually a lot of flaws and im working on it but i dont see the point why i have to be perfect to see mistakes in others play.

 

[darnner123]

Uhm if your stroke is not perfect, how would you know whats a perfect stroke. if you knew you could do it? kinda of a paradox lol Also I guess people just don't like other people criticisng them because everyone expects you to walk the walk instead of talk the walk. Hope you get what I mean haha xD

 

[bobpuls]

USATT and their weird ranking ... how is the ranking for JHA Kanak in us ?

 

[TT_Rogue]

And to end this story, sorry Matt it wasnt meant offensive and of course i would not have wrote that comment with the hat i would have known about your history! I hope you can forgive me i really had zero intention to put you in a bad light

 

[TT_Rogue]

Uhm if your stroke is not perfect, how would you know whats a perfect stroke. if you knew you could do it? kinda of a paradox lol Also I guess people just don't like other people criticisng them because everyone expects you to walk the walk instead of talk the walk. Hope you get what I mean haha xD

Because i was teached for many years (and still im getting thaught every day) how theoreticly the perfect technique has to look like with respect to physics. And if you dont understand how the technique is working you cannot imrpove i think

 

[Suga D]

Oh my god guys^.^. What is going on. I think my comment sounded written much more harsh than it was intended to . The comment with the cap was more ment like a jokingly introduction. But when i read such big words as "inspiration for all forehand players" i expect a flawless technique, because i got quite a technique fetish . Why would i not criticise the technique? Im also criticising the technique of Zhang Jike.(Ah and yes i dont like to watch Timo Boll because his forehand technique is crap ) If just people are allowed to criticise others who are better players then just Ma Long would be actually allowed to train everybody. Why did you take that offensive? I didnt not say that you are doing bad work or something. And i also didnt say that this is guy is not a good player. And clearly you dont have to have a perfect technqiue to be top.
How exactly do i have to understand USATT? When you say 2000 points USATT what is it transfered to Germany?
And yes im actually afraid to show my ugly face to you guys, my own technique has actually a lot of flaws and im working on it but i dont see the point why i have to be perfect to see mistakes in others play.

Thanks for takin' a stand, and shedding some light on this whole thing, TT-Rogue. From only knowing you from your posts, I still somehow had a feeling your comment was taken wrongly. Most of the commenters on this know each other personally, so that kinda explains their loyalty, which is totally fine.
I just don't like it when people are getting a bit unfair.

I think i don't have to write anything more about this.

As far as i know 2000 USATT Rating would be roughly translated to about something between 1600 - 1700 TTR. So carl is quite accurate saying 2700 USATT would be around 2300 TTR, which really is pretty high.

 

[Persistence TT]

Oh my god guys^.^. What is going on. I think my comment sounded written much more harsh than it was intended to . The comment with the cap was more ment like a jokingly introduction. But when i read such big words as "inspiration for all forehand players" i expect a flawless technique, because i got quite a technique fetish . Why would i not criticise the technique? Im also criticising the technique of Zhang Jike.(Ah and yes i dont like to watch Timo Boll because his forehand technique is crap ) If just people are allowed to criticise others who are better players then just Ma Long would be actually allowed to train everybody. Why did you take that offensive? I didnt not say that you are doing bad work or something. And i also didnt say that this is guy is not a good player. And clearly you dont have to have a perfect technqiue to be top.
How exactly do i have to understand USATT? When you say 2000 points USATT what is it transfered to Germany?
And yes im actually afraid to show my ugly face to you guys, my own technique has actually a lot of flaws and im working on it but i dont see the point why i have to be perfect to see mistakes in others play.

There is no point at this. Next level exaggerated a bit, I have met many players who had crappy technique at many aspects but they could still help me with a thing or two about my mistakes, so its kinda irrelevant. The guys got excited a bit there so I consider the whole thing a misunderstanding. If u put ur self in Matt's position you can understand why he reacted in this way. Anyway good for you to clarify your position and standup

 

[WindyRobbo]

First view and there's a whole lotta handbagging going on

The guy looked pretty good to me

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

@ TT_Rogue: Well, a couple of things. First, it is nice of you to come on here and explain where you were coming from and to apologize for the misunderstanding. Second, I think NextLevel was very clear that part of the reason for the idea of showing video of yourself is, we all have flaws, and when your flaws are out there for everyone to see, then, when you critique someone else's technique, it is more likely that you will do it in a kind and gentle way so that the criticism can be more constructive rather than being heard as just negative feedback.

Now I had a feeling that some of what was going on was a language issue. Like, if you had written in your own language, you may have been able to get across more nuanced details and not come across as being 100% totally harsh.

But, I think, the reason for the reactions was, that it did come across 100% totally harsh and it did not come across as constructive. I will credit Suga_D for seeing the possibility that you did mean to provide constructive criticism. He's good like that. But, if your reference to the hat was meant as a joke, your skill in writing in English needs some work because there was nothing there to indicate anything but that it was a direct and personal insult.

So, the post started with what was read by everybody as an insult, and then continued to critique the forehand technique in the harshest of ways with nothing positive being said. Which went to NextLevel's point about posting video of yourself. The real point he was making is, when one gives a critique of someone else's technique, it is much more likely that the usefulness of the constructive criticism will be heard if some of the things that the person is doing well are also mentioned and perhaps, if they are mentioned before the stuff that needs to be worked on and improved.

Now, as far as I am concerned, I will assume that most of the trouble with your post that started this firestorm had to do with the fact that your native language is not English. And I think it takes someone who is fairly well intentioned to apologize, even when their intention was not to harm.

So, thanks for coming back here and explaining where you are coming from.

By the way, when Matt gave the title to this thread:

Some Inspiration for Forehand Players

I do not believe his intention was to say he was presenting a perfect forehand. I believe his intention was to show a young, elite player working hard in a drill that is not so easy. A young player that not many people have heard of or know, who is not on the world circuit and whose forehand is pretty decent considering we will probably never see him in international play. I don't think he was saying, "this forehand is perfect".

So, the forehand being an inspiration to us guys who are 1600 TTR or 2000 USATT and wanting to improve. Not an inspiration that Timo Boll, Werner Schlager and Zhang Jike should aspire to. Yes, I mentioned 3 great players with fairly imperfect forehands even though ZJK's forehand is now darn good. At some point it was ugly and awkward and it still ain't perfect.

Anyway, I want to hear what the nutty professor has to say about all this.

Hey, is that Adriana Lima over there? Gotta Go!

 

[TT_Rogue]

@ TT_Rogue: Well, a couple of things. First, it is nice of you to come on here and explain where you were coming from and to apologize for the misunderstanding. Second, I think NextLevel was very clear that part of the reason for the idea of showing video of yourself is, we all have flaws, and when your flaws are out there for everyone to see, then, when you critique someone else's technique, it is more likely that you will do it in a kind and gentle way so that the criticism can be more constructive rather than being heard as just negative feedback.

Now I had a feeling that some of what was going on was a language issue. Like, if you had written in your own language, you may have been able to get across more nuanced details and not come across as being 100% totally harsh.

But, I think, the reason for the reactions was, that it did come across 100% totally harsh and it did not come across as constructive. I will credit Suga_D for seeing the possibility that you did mean to provide constructive criticism. He's good like that. But, if your reference to the hat was meant as a joke, your skill in writing in English needs some work because there was nothing there to indicate anything but that it was a direct and personal insult.

So, the post started with what was read by everybody as an insult, and then continued to critique the forehand technique in the harshest of ways with nothing positive being said. Which went to NextLevel's point about posting video of yourself. The real point he was making is, when one gives a critique of someone else's technique, it is much more likely that the usefulness of the constructive criticism will be heard if some of the things that the person is doing well are also mentioned and perhaps, if they are mentioned before the stuff that needs to be worked on and improved.

Now, as far as I am concerned, I will assume that most of the trouble with your post that started this firestorm had to do with the fact that your native language is not English. And I think it takes someone who is fairly well intentioned to apologize, even when their intention was not to harm.

So, thanks for coming back here and explaining where you are coming from.

By the way, when Matt gave the title to this thread:

Some Inspiration for Forehand Players

I do not believe his intention was to say he was presenting a perfect forehand. I believe his intention was to show a young, elite player working hard in a drill that is not so easy. A young player that not many people have heard of or know, who is not on the world circuit and whose forehand is pretty decent considering we will probably never see him in international play. I don't think he was saying, "this forehand is perfect".

So, the forehand being an inspiration to us guys who are 1600 TTR or 2000 USATT and wanting to improve. Not an inspiration that Timo Boll, Werner Schlager and Zhang Jike should aspire to. Yes, I mentioned 3 great players with fairly imperfect forehands even though ZJK's forehand is now darn good. At some point it was ugly and awkward and it still ain't perfect.

Anyway, I want to hear what the nutty professor has to say about all this.

Hey, is that Adriana Lima over there? Gotta Go!

Absolutely not necessary to explain something, because i think you were totaly right. I was reading my post again and it was actually harsh like that. I think the anonymity of the internet sometimes makes us not to take care enough of our words or how they could be interpreted, i promise to do better

 

[Archosaurus]

The way I would define a perfect stroke is when the stroke is correctly utilizing everything that can be done to produce the desired result. There have been "perfect strokes" done, with this definition.

I don't believe in a 100% mechanically perfect stroke, nor in one ideal stroke for any one situation.

In the end, the perfect stroke is the one that wins you the world championship.


Although, this doesn't mean that you can hit the ball however you want and still achieve maximal results. That's why we even care about mechanics.

 

[massa]

Such a long story for nothing... One guy posts a video, the other made comments (some unnecessary) and other guys (as Next Level, who always needs to show his ideas) say a lot about little of the topic.
Perhaps it's time to people don't take it so personally or care about things taht doesn't matter to table tennis,
He his a good player with a nice FH stroke, maybe he isn't perfect but who can spot that is welcome to say that for the others to try to understand it.
It is always possible to get better

 

[Matt Hetherington]

And to end this story, sorry Matt it wasnt meant offensive and of course i would not have wrote that comment with the hat i would have known about your history! I hope you can forgive me i really had zero intention to put you in a bad light

Looks like a pretty good story ending to me. Thanks for that Rogue.

 

[bobpuls]

Massa hit it in the midle... And this way all post here in this forum ends .
.. And this is the reality. ...