TTEdge Executing Table Tennis Shots Series!

[UpSideDownCarl]

IMHO, for you, it's largely the grip on that forehand. It's set up in a way that gives you good hook but it locks the wrist a bit more than some people think. IF you were a full bodied looping player, you could probably get away with it.

It might be the grip. But I think it is more that I have a habit of keeping my wrist hooked. I am making some headway in getting my wrist more neutral or even open on FH. Not that much. For whatever reason, that feels right to me when I am hitting even though, when I open my wrist, it feels more right. Hard to change habits like that. But it is true, if my wrist is all the way forward, there isn't anywhere it can go. Brett's video and your comments give me some things to think about. But I can still feel, in the last month, my FH has improved a decent amount.

 

[NextLevel]

It might be the grip. But I think it is more that I have a habit of keeping my wrist hooked. I am making some headway in getting my wrist more neutral or even open on FH. Not that much. For whatever reason, that feels right to me when I am hitting even though, when I open my wrist, it feels more right. Hard to change habits like that. But it is true, if my wrist is all the way forward, there isn't anywhere it can go. Brett's video and your comments give me some things to think about. But I can still feel, in the last month, my FH has improved a decent amount.

By the grip, I meant keeping your wrist hooked . But revisit how you hold your paddle as well as that might be influencing it more than you think it does. I have had some success holding the paddle like this - I will make a better video on it sometime like Ben Larcombe's:

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Well, I definitely use a different grip than you. But, the reason I am comfortable with the idea that it is not the grip is, off the table I can open my wrist.

On the table, I can also open my wrist if the hitting is controlled and I think about it. When I do it it works. If I open my wrist more to go inside out, it works fine. But, if I am pressured by the pace, spin and lack of time between shots, my wrist goes right back to hooking. I don't notice it because that is what feels most natural.

But it hasn't changed that my topspin has gotten faster, spinnier and all and all nastier in the last month.

My looping backspin on BH side has also gotten better. But my FH has gotten more better. My reset is faster and I am timing the contact way better so, with less effort I am watching rockets come off my FH on opening and on counter loops.

I am also fixing my lazy left arm which, to me, because of body mechanics, is a bigger issue than my hooked wrist. Fixing that (really, for now it is partially fixed, I need a robot to get the proper mechanics fully into my body when I am hitting the ball) is part of why my reset and power has been improved.

But if I had two two hour sessions on a robot I am pretty sure I could make my lazy left arm entirely gone.

And I think 2 more 2 hour sessions would fix my wrist.

I actually mostly fixed my lazy left arm with 30 min on a robot. I just don't have time to go where the robot lives.

Other things in my life, right now, seem more pressing. [emoji2]


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[NextLevel]

Well, I definitely use a different grip than you. But, the reason I am comfortable with the idea that it is not the grip is, off the table I can open my wrist.

On the table, I can also open my wrist if the hitting is controlled and I think about it. When I do it it works. If I open my wrist more to go inside out, it works fine. But, if I am pressured by the pace, spin and lack of time between shots, my wrist goes right back to hooking. I don't notice it because that is what feels most natural.

But it hasn't changed that my topspin has gotten faster, spinnier and all and all nastier in the last month.

My looping backspin on BH side has also gotten better. But my FH has gotten more better. My reset is faster and I am timing the contact way better so, with less effort I am watching rockets come off my FH on opening and on counter loops.

I am also fixing my lazy left arm which, to me, because of body mechanics, is a bigger issue than my hooked wrist. Fixing that (really, for now it is partially fixed, I need a robot to get the proper mechanics fully into my body when I am hitting the ball) is part of why my reset and power has been improved.

But if I had two two hour sessions on a robot I am pretty sure I could make my lazy left arm entirely gone.

And I think 2 more 2 hour sessions would fix my wrist.

I actually mostly fixed my lazy left arm with 30 min on a robot. I just don't have time to go where the robot lives.

Other things in my life, right now, seem more pressing. [emoji2]


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Many of us make unconscious grip changes between strokes, Carl. When you are off the table, you anticipate the ball properly and have time to consciously switch so to speak. Heck, you may even adjust your body position unconsciously to compensate even more for the shot direction. None of that shows up unless you look at it closely under camera.

It's when the ball is on you and you are in the stance that feels uncomfortable that all the awkwardness of the grip is truly manifest. The reason why I switched to that grip was because it was as close to perfectly neutral as any grip I have ever used. It is low enough in the index finger and thumb positioning but high enough on the handle. And because it sits primarily in the fingers, I can create a wide variety of racket angles without changing my grip at all. And the wrist rotation is massive on both forehand and backhand, especially the forehand. But it still has its growing pains, so I can't say it cured all my problems but the main thing it did for me is that it allowed me to do many of the same things I do on my forehand side on my backhand side and vice versa. Were my joints healthier, the gap would be much closer than it is now, and it has been a boon on short service return especially.

For me, what would happen is that I would usually lock into a grip based on how I returned the serve and stood at the table and I would be stuck unless a shot came along that gave me the time to switch and adjust. But if you started me off with a short reverse serve and I had to use a backhand grip over the table, I was usually stuck in one. Being able to feel ready for any shot is a huge aspect of the grip you choose. Not any shot after doing adjustments - any shot quickly with relatively minimal anticipation. A hooked grip makes our backhand secure and if you hook your forehand consistently, it is usually okay. But it is when the ball comes to your forehand with some reverse sidespin that is not well anticipated that the grip begins to reveal its limitations.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Cool. So we can have a look at it next time we play. I think my wrist has more to do with 6 years of habit and I can change it when I focus on it. But I would have to make the new wrist position feel like it is natural for my forehand for it to stick.

And the reason I think that is the case is, I can do either and my grip doesn't change but I go back to the old habit as soon as I am not paying attention.

Also, my grip, it changed, it isn't really rigid. I do change the angle of the racket in my hand more these days. And Mike L has told me a bunch of times that my grip should have the freedom to change for different shots.

And there are times I do my hook serve and do a few shots after with that grip before I change it. But I am pretty used to that and it seems to work.

However, I am happy to examine this stuff the next time we get to play.


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[NextLevel]

I am getting more whip but the video is only showing 30% of it and the backswing still looks a little stiff.

May resume on Friday. Or possibly tomorrow. The search for easy whip continues.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

When you get them, those are totally loaded. Pretty cool. They had good spin before. But those are dancing with spin now.


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[Archosaurus]

I try to focus on my grip pressure and racket speed, not the whip. The whip comes automatically if you're relaxed and moving the racket fast enough. I found that if I try to force a whip motion somehow, my contact is rubbish. Ideally I don't think you even notice you're doing it.

I think it's just a case of grooving the serve in, because those are good. Just gotta make it your standard.

 

[NextLevel]

I try to focus on my grip pressure and racket speed, not the whip. The whip comes automatically if you're relaxed and moving the racket fast enough. I found that if I try to force a whip motion somehow, my contact is rubbish. Ideally I don't think you even notice you're doing it.

I think it's just a case of grooving the serve in, because those are good. Just gotta make it your standard.

Well, I haven't received feedback on this set of videos yet. The problem is that sometimes, how you feel and what you are doing don't jibe together. If you ask me whether I am getting whip in the prior videos to this, I will tell you yes. But Brett saw things he didn't like and asked for a fix. Yes, I had to relax my grip pressure, but it is to the point that the whip is there but not impossible to control. I think my arthritis sometimes makes me feel like I am getting whip even if when I am not but that is another scary story.

 

[Archosaurus]

Well, I haven't received feedback on this set of videos yet. The problem is that sometimes, how you feel and what you are doing don't jibe together. If you ask me whether I am getting whip in the prior videos to this, I will tell you yes. But Brett saw things he didn't like and asked for a fix. Yes, I had to relax my grip pressure, but it is to the point that the whip is there but not impossible to control. I think my arthritis sometimes makes me feel like I am getting whip even if when I am not but that is another scary story.

You nailed some very spinny serves in the video. I suggest you try to replicate that, and immediately note how it felt when you did it, then strive for that feel.

That's what I do for every single action in anything.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

In training something into your body, there is a stage when you have to pay attention to those details. Then it gets into your body and you forget about it and it is there.

In my little video with the drumstick, part of my point was, the reason that serve was just natural to me and I never even knew it was good until a 2400 player and a 2500 player said to me, "that one is good. Work on it."

The drumstick video showed the basic action I would do when playing drums and hitting a crash symbol accent.

It was so natural I didn't know I was doing that whipping action on my hook/punch serve. When I figured out why that serve got such good spin and spin variations, I tried to figure out how to get the same action into my pendulum serves. It was not as natural and not so easy. I still get better spin with my hook. But, the pendulum is now coming close.

But the way I am doing the hook is different than the way Brett is teaching NextLevel.

I am going to try to learn the version NextLevel is working on because I feel there is a greater ability to invisibly vary the spin.

But the one that came naturally, I will keep using it. [emoji2]


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[NextLevel]

You nailed some very spinny serves in the video. I suggest you try to replicate that, and immediately note how it felt when you did it, then strive for that feel.

That's what I do for every single action in anything.

Yes, but in this case, it is not just the spin but the form. I tend to generate good spin on my serves - but in this case, I am working on a variety of technical details, of which spin is one, with Brett to get a high level serve with variations for side top and side backspin - I am working on the side backspin but the goal is to have a form that is similar to the side top while having heavy spin on both. If you watch the two earlier videos that Brett posted (and you may have already), you will see that spin was just one element of the whole thing.

 

[NextLevel]

In training something into your body, there is a stage when you have to pay attention to those details. Then it gets into your body and you forget about it and it is there.

In my little video with the drumstick, part of my point was, the reason that serve was just natural to me and I never even knew it was good until a 2400 player and a 2500 player said to me, "that one is good. Work on it."

The drumstick video showed the basic action I would do when playing drums and hitting a crash symbol accent.

It was so natural I didn't know I was doing that whipping action on my hook/punch serve. When I figured out why that serve got such good spin and spin variations, I tried to figure out how to get the same action into my pendulum serves. It was not as natural and not so easy. I still get better spin with my hook. But, the pendulum is now coming close.

But the way I am doing the hook is different than the way Brett is teaching NextLevel.

I am going to try to learn the version NextLevel is working on because I feel there is a greater ability to invisibly vary the spin.

But the one that came naturally, I will keep using it. [emoji2]


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The thing about Brett is that Brett actually teaches whip. Other coaches may say things like use your wrist or loosen your grip or change your grip but Brett has an amount of whip he ideally wants to see - for me, the cue which I forgot in the set of videos I filmed before this new set (not on this site) was that he like to see the paddle slap back and forth after the forearm stops to indicate the amount of whip in the stroke - this is clear on serves and backhand strokes and a bit less so on forehand strokes.

The agreement here was that we would get to a high level serve and complete this project unlike the reverse pendulum which we kinda abandoned half way (or more likely less than half). Improving my serve game is a huge part of my prolonging my TT career and breaking 2200 plan so I am all for it and I hope the major part of this will be done by the end of March.

The final thing is that you would probably have to keep your current serve anyway, Carl. Part of the reason I want to learn this serve is that this is the first one where I didn't have a version of the serve before meeting Brett. For all my other serves, there is a major amount of interference between my original form and my current form. This one is the most blank slate in a sense. But since you already have something, it will usually interfere with your learning this one. I have tried to fix my pendulum, backspin-no-spin, reverse and backhand serves for a year now. And they are all much better with the ideas I learned from Brett. But they all have the things that keep them at a lower level, just less of those things. They are large and often ugly, badly timed and often with snap/whip missing. They get the job done at the 2000 level and below. But I want to get good players to start missing my serves too.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

For me that serve you are doing feels like a completely different serve and it doesn't feel like it interferes with the ones I already do.

The one you are working on and Brett does looks a lot like Ludovich Freithofnig-Lee's hook serve. And his is outrageously good.


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[NextLevel]

For me that serve you are doing feels like a completely different serve and it doesn't feel like it interferes with the ones I already do.

The one you are working on and Brett does looks a lot like Ludovich Freithofnig-Lee's hook serve. And his is outrageously good.


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Never underestimate the power of doing two things that do the same thing but look different. Table tennis is interesting like that.

 

[NextLevel]

This one is for you, Carl. 10 mins, 14 secs in.

 

[Archosaurus]

I like 4:27.

It could be argued that your shot isn't anything special, which is true in itself, but it looks like you're about to backhand flick down the line, and instead you push to the forehand sideline. I saw that coming a mile away from behind the screen, but I can see that being very deceptive when actually at the table.

It's like a lower level version of backhand fading a flick to the forehand corner instead of down the line like 99% of backhand flicks go.

 

[NextLevel]

I like 4:27.

It could be argued that your shot isn't anything special, which is true in itself, but it looks like you're about to backhand flick down the line, and instead you push to the forehand sideline. I saw that coming a mile away from behind the screen, but I can see that being very deceptive when actually at the table.

It's like a lower level version of backhand fading a flick to the forehand corner instead of down the line like 99% of backhand flicks go.

It's a high ball from him - he has no right to know where my return is going or complain about the outcome of the point. I was going to flick it to his backhand but he was so frozen and the ball was so high that I changed my mind. My shot likely wasn't good enough for a faster opponent so I might have stuck with my original intention against a faster player.

 

[Archosaurus]

I think your shot would have been fine even against a faster player, and you would have been able to probably kill the next ball if it came back.

That is ONLY provided that they are not fully ready to move. If they're ready to move, you basically need to flick it off the sideline. If your flick is not a high percentage shot, then a push like this is fine if you can capitalize on their lack of preparation.

So overall it was a good play and had your timing been even faster and with a little more force in the stroke, it'd have been a very quality shot IMO.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

This one is for you, Carl. 10 mins, 14 secs in.

Sweeeeeet. Captain Hook in effect!!!!

As far as 4:27 is concerned:

So overall it was a good play and had your timing been even faster and with a little more force in the stroke, it'd have been a very quality shot IMO.

Now, I got your answer in that PM so, I am not trying to bug you or anything. But this is exactly the kind of comment that has made me feel the way I do about video footage.

There are some things you say that make me wonder how you play and if you can do the things you think you can.

In 4:27 NextLevel's shot is a touch shot. The angle is good enough and part of what he is doing is, after showing flip, he has touched the ball softly so that, with the angle, there is purposely, not too much pace.

I like to call these Stealth Bomber shots. They slip in under the defense the way a Stealth Bomber was designed to slip in under the radar of enemy defenses. If he put more pace on it, it would actually be more easy to return. And I am comfortable with the fact that, if NextLevel had wanted to flip-kill that ball, he could have. But based on the opponent's reaction in getting ready for NextLevel's attack, the touch shot was a pretty good choice.

Never the less, it is clear you are pretty smart and that you watched the video, and that you love table tennis. So, none of it really matters to me. So I will leave alone that subject other subject.


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