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This is super important, note that NextLevel's technique has been modified by him/his coaches to put not too much stress on his knees. You get the idea of how to do it, its not as easy as NextLevel makes it look , even with his touch he is missing one or two balls, so don't get disheartened if you miss a few and also make sure you try to copy Brett's forehand video technique , the one demonstrated with a teddy bear when you are hitting the ball, not what NextLevel is doing, even though his arm swing form is very good, he does not add the balance transfer power as much to not hurt his knees.

The video itself is over a year old. Knee or no knees I would probably change a few things today but other than bending lower, it is essentially correct, especially the swing around 3 mins to 3.5 mins in. Balance transfer IMO is overrated, core rotation is not. The problem with balance transfer for adults or badly trained players without efficient footwork (and this is especially true close to the table) is that most end up not transferring their weight from right to left or vice versa because their stronger leg tends to carry more weight naturally. If he bends his knees and rotates his core, he is winning 90% of the battle from where he is stroking.

What is extremely underrated is proper arm usage. There is such a big focus on using the body in table tennis that too many people use their arms in ways that can be radically improved.
 
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I get your point and you are essentially right because I have found issues with my own balance transfer especially when I fall back from the table , my strong legs do carry most of the weight and because of my bad left knee my form is screwed anyways. But what I have seen is that if you play a close to the table game , the only way to be faster is to take the ball early and transfer balance. I am trying to come out from a shoulder and back injury 3 weeks back . I was not able to get out of bed yesterday and had to do a lot of stretches on my gluteus midius or whatever it is called and pressure it with tools. But then I went to the club and started playing close to the table and found most of my issues and injuries went away because I could generate power off the bounce and not use my body. I think if your reflexes are good it might be worthwhile trying to do that instead of always thinking that that kind of game is only for kids or women.

Actually I was readying Larry Hodges , 20 points I always tell my students and that gave me the idea to go back to basics.
I will try to make a video of what I am changing and put it out.

Also, trying to change my Backhand stroke technique , going for more ulnar deviation than wrist rotation around the elbow. Saw Bob Chen do it and found that it was easier on the shoulder and it was easier to transition from a close to the table backhand to a mid distance, more classical backhand. Again, a topic for another thread :)

I can see your point when you play a more mid distance kind of game. But won't you agree from training the technique , we should start with the close to the table game and then when the form is in place , put the rest of the pieces together ?


The video itself is over a year old. Knee or no knees I would probably change a few things today but other than bending lower, it is essentially correct, especially the swing around 3 mins to 3.5 mins in. Balance transfer IMO is overrated, core rotation is not. The problem with balance transfer for adults or badly trained players without efficient footwork (and this is especially true close to the table) is that most end up not transferring their weight from right to left or vice versa because their stronger leg tends to carry more weight naturally. If he bends his knees and rotates his core, he is winning 90% of the battle from where he is stroking.

What is extremely underrated is proper arm usage. There is such a big focus on using the body in table tennis that too many people use their arms in ways that can be radically improved.
 
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My coach has me going for more of the same thing for my backhand, coming from a very wristy stroke to more arm usage. Its helped but, like everything in my life, it's awkward still. As far as FH, though, I have decent reflexes and lately have had better success sticking near the table. When I get farther away my stroke is too inefficient to overpower anyone really. My coach wants me to improve my at the table game to match my serving before we really get into mid-distance so what you guys have shown me will be great.
 
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But what I have seen is that if you play a close to the table game , the only way to be faster is to take the ball early and transfer balance.

Transfer balance is a very ambiguous term. IF you bend your knees and rotate your core, that is sufficient.


I am trying to come out from a shoulder and back injury 3 weeks back . I was not able to get out of bed yesterday and had to do a lot of stretches on my gluteus midius or whatever it is called and pressure it with tools. But then I went to the club and started playing close to the table and found most of my issues and injuries went away because I could generate power off the bounce and not use my body. I think if your reflexes are good it might be worthwhile trying to do that instead of always thinking that that kind of game is only for kids or women.

Up until I broke 2000, I had no forehand and my game was essentially the women's game. This match is before I ever got advice on how to do anything from Brett with my strokes - I used to stay at the table and block:



Also, trying to change my Backhand stroke technique , going for more ulnar deviation than wrist rotation around the elbow. Saw Bob Chen do it and found that it was easier on the shoulder and it was easier to transition from a close to the table backhand to a mid distance, more classical backhand. Again, a topic for another thread :)

Easier on the shoulder, possibly with bad technique, but good technique should always limit the use of the shoulder by tying the upper arm motion to the core. Superior technique? That's where the real debate begins.

I can see your point when you play a more mid distance kind of game. But won't you agree from training the technique , we should start with the close to the table game and then when the form is in place , put the rest of the pieces together ?
I largely speak about the close to the table men's game. I have only been playing a mid distance game for less than a year if even that. And my dream is still to stay close to the table. The problem is that you have to consistently bend your knees if you want to loop close to the table and play forward and over the ball and staying close to the table for a player my height makes my middle very vulnerable - that said, most players would still consider me largely to be a close to the table player with mid-distance variation. Also, the incoming trajectory of loops from mid distance can give you issues close to the table unless you are fully committed to blocking and quick movement. I also don't return serves well for my level so I needed to be able to find ways to stay in the point after bad returns.

When you are close to the table looper, bending your knees is critical because you want to maintain a constant height and eye level and be able to loop over low balls without too much upward motion. I fall back to mid distance against players with too much topspin arc but also because I like to loop. I could probably still block and play pretty well. But I need to get fitter to loop at the table because of my height.

When you play at the table, your dominant mode of getting power is core rotation, not weight transfer. Core rotation is similar to what happens with a spinning top - it doesn't transfer its weight. I tell people to always recenter their weight - if you bend your knees, it can look and feel like weight transfer. For me weight transfer is more full bodied looping for third ball kill or mid distance play.
 
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My backhand is still wristy knife. You need to have wrist on your backhand if you are staying close to the table. What I am saying is this... let me try to explain. If this is not clear let me know and I will try to make a video.
The backhand needs a very stable elbow , especially close to the table. When I play my wristy backhand , I used to make a right angle with my hand to my forearm and rotate the wrist around the forearm , this technique greatly helps in making the elbow table and you can generate enormous amount of spin and power if you stay really close to the table and take everything off the bounce. Now the problem with this technique are two, one it causes strain on the shoulder and two, its difficult to transition to either forehand or mid distance backhand both of which needs a greater angle between hand and the inside of the forearm, if you don't change the angle it strains the shoulder on the backhand and on the forehand everything becomes a sidespin loop. Now, I am trying to increase the angle a little more and its helping me ...

@NextLevel, everything that you have said makes sense, I thought about this more and core rotation is the way to go ....

I saw the video of your match and what I saw is this. Your serves have improved a lot now, along with your wide backhand , now you are more comfortable looping there instead of doing the stick block you are doing here. Also, your serve receive touch has improved. I can't tell about the forehand , honestly.

My coach has me going for more of the same thing for my backhand, coming from a very wristy stroke to more arm usage. Its helped but, like everything in my life, it's awkward still. As far as FH, though, I have decent reflexes and lately have had better success sticking near the table. When I get farther away my stroke is too inefficient to overpower anyone really. My coach wants me to improve my at the table game to match my serving before we really get into mid-distance so what you guys have shown me will be great.
 
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I guess I will catch up on what was written in the thread after I post this video. In this video, you can see that the extra time given by the second bounce allows me to be set and move into position for the ball to a much greater extent than if I was only letting it bounce once and hitting it right away. Also, you can see, as NextLevel explained in his post with the self hitting video, that I am hitting from the BH side because the table is not in the way from that position.



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My backhand is still wristy knife. You need to have wrist on your backhand if you are staying close to the table. What I am saying is this... let me try to explain. If this is not clear let me know and I will try to make a video.
The backhand needs a very stable elbow ,
especially close to the table. When I play my wristy backhand , I used to make a right angle with my hand to my forearm and rotate the wrist around the forearm , this technique greatly helps in making the elbow table and you can generate enormous amount of spin and power if you stay really close to the table and take everything off the bounce. Now the problem with this technique are two, one it causes strain on the shoulder and two, its difficult to transition to either forehand or mid distance backhand both of which needs a greater angle between hand and the inside of the forearm, if you don't change the angle it strains the shoulder on the backhand and on the forehand everything becomes a sidespin loop. Now, I am trying to increase the angle a little more and its helping me ...

Would probably need to see the video but looping in general does not need a stable elbow. It does revolve around how you use the elbow but I have found that being too rigid with the elbow position can cause tightness that impacts the flexibility of the whole stroke on both FH and BH. A rigid elbow kills the whippiness, but a too loose elbow might mean too much motion in upper arm. So it's really a balance. I could use either as a coaching tool to cure a bad habit, but I would not prescribe either in a final stroke.


@NextLevel, everything that you have said makes sense, I thought about this more and core rotation is the way to go ....

Good we agree, though I would also understand if we disagree as well.

I saw the video of your match and what I saw is this. Your serves have improved a lot now, along with your wide backhand , now you are more comfortable looping there instead of doing the stick block you are doing here. Also, your serve receive touch has improved. I can't tell about the forehand , honestly.

I agree and I probably picked a bad sample match. I rarely used to counterloop against this guy because his spin was too heavy. But I probably should find another guy who I used to play back then for the contrast. My serve and forehand have come a long way. Even my forehand block can do things now it could not do then.
 
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I am trying to come out from a shoulder and back injury 3 weeks back . I was not able to get out of bed yesterday and had to do a lot of stretches on my gluteus midius or whatever it is called and pressure it with tools.

Some stretches for your outer hip and lower back that might help:

ad9e5a477dccfee51673eb1a19e7c6e3.jpg


0e8b6bcb8f4faef18d3393aaa1e48422.jpg


faa114de6f2209bc385e293f461e917b.jpg


f72ec89bd30551fa280e60c3efc8a0f8.jpg


2c5e25b66d0d317bec363cfa0e2acabc.jpg


eed4f63bb2fd61630a86f35330daff3f.jpg


780988c14ed8e148c651803440cc68c7.jpg


4f83b7b40372a3fdb31fb9ab8d418fd0.jpg


49a3aa3e0ca5a5664ba60d770210011d.jpg


605a11e7f7054c3100f58250e574d231.jpg


I added a few that are for the back that don't have much to do with the hip. But these all might be useful.

My guess is that what is going on with your hip is external rotators like the piriformis rather than the gluteus mediums. But these stretches should help everything around the area anyway.
 
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Thank you so much @UpSideDownCarl !!! I will keep this as a bible for my warm up and cool down stretches every time I play !!! Really really really appreciate it !!

Also, great video for knife !! I liked the way you did your forehand there.

Knife , now is the time to be generous and either pay us , we will give you our paypal account details !! Shuki , I know will send some money our way anyways , so I don't need to request him anyways :p . But to be honest, I have paid a lot of money for coaching , but I am proud we are able to help a lot of adult players in this forum which I don't think even really high level coaches do for the money they charge.


just kidding friends ... please pay it along the way by helping other fellow table tennis addicts who are finding it difficult to find their way in this murky world of adult amateurs :)
@NextLevel : I will try to make a video as soon as I can find some shakehand player who can consistently block my close to the table backhand . Its becoming rarer to find , especially in training . There are very few 2000+ shakehand players who are coming to the club I go these days , so I have to train with my friend , who is good but his backhand japanese block is not of that kind against which I can show the difference consistently..
Some stretches for your outer hip and lower back that might help:

ad9e5a477dccfee51673eb1a19e7c6e3.jpg


0e8b6bcb8f4faef18d3393aaa1e48422.jpg


faa114de6f2209bc385e293f461e917b.jpg


f72ec89bd30551fa280e60c3efc8a0f8.jpg


2c5e25b66d0d317bec363cfa0e2acabc.jpg


eed4f63bb2fd61630a86f35330daff3f.jpg


780988c14ed8e148c651803440cc68c7.jpg


4f83b7b40372a3fdb31fb9ab8d418fd0.jpg


49a3aa3e0ca5a5664ba60d770210011d.jpg


605a11e7f7054c3100f58250e574d231.jpg


I added a few that are for the back that don't have much to do with the hip. But these all might be useful.

My guess is that what is going on with your hip is external rotators like the piriformis rather than the gluteus mediums. But these stretches should help everything around the area anyway.
 
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Thank you so much @UpSideDownCarl !!! I will keep this as a bible for my warm up and cool down stretches every time I play !!! Really really really appreciate it !!

The real thing to do is try them and see if any of them, or really, which ones help. Then do them.
 
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I will, Carl. Just that for some of those I won't be able to get into positions you are getting like getting your palms flat on the floor while standing ... etc.
The real thing to do is try them and see if any of them, or really, which ones help. Then do them.
 
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I will, Carl. Just that for some of those I won't be able to get into positions you are getting like getting your palms flat on the floor while standing ... etc.

You should go to where is right for you. The poses are not about what they look like. They are about the stretch you get from them and trying to relax into them.

Trust me, I don't look like the bendy girls. And I used to be much more flexible than I am. But at some point I was too flexible and over the last 12 years, by purposely making myself less flexible, my body is healthier. Sometimes it is worse to be too flexible than not flexible enough.

But if you go to where you feel the stretch in each of those poses, they should help.

For your shoulder, shoulders are more complicated. I would have to be there to k is what would help you most.
 
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I guess I will catch up on what was written in the thread after I post this video. In this video, you can see that the extra time given by the second bounce allows me to be set and move into position for the ball to a much greater extent than if I was only letting it bounce once and hitting it right away. Also, you can see, as NextLevel explained in his post with the self hitting video, that I am hitting from the BH side because the table is not in the way from that position.



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Just trying to make sure what the bounce trick looks like with 2 bounces and how much easier it is to get into position for a good stroke and use your body.

BTW: I got the double bounce trick and idea from Robert Chen.
 
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Thanks everyone for helping, I really should pay you for it! But maybe instead I'll start a new thread kinda like Shuki for y'all to see your work come to fruition :p Either way I'll be sure to pass it on as much as I can and if you ever need any help with fitness or strength training and Der_Echte's brain isn't available to pick I'm happy to help! I'll throw my video up later tonight after helping Ms. Knife cook and clean
 
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I think this is my new favorite. Stayed square to the table and focused on getting my shoulders rotating through my swing. By this point (after 40 minutes) I was starting to feel comfortable both with the swing and with gauging the height of the table. It's already starting to feel more fluid and less awkward, so thanks everyone for the feedback and the hints and drills!

Edit: wow did I have a coordination breakdown on the last set for a bit...I tried to hit to the short side of the table and was so focused on that I forgot to hit the dadgum ball
 
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@theknife:

Good work. That is a good start. Now try it from the BH corner of the table. You will be able to feel why that will work better once you try it. How NextLevel explained it: the table is out of your way.

Also, see if you can get a bunch more balls. I remember, at some point I ordered a gross (144) of cheap balls. Back then I think they cost $30.00 for a gross of cheapo celluloid balls. Here:

http://cdn.opentip.com/Sports-Outdo..._ORANGE.html?gclid=CMivm6ThqMwCFYFahgody5IObw

It would be worth using at least 15-20. But I used to just hit until the whole bucket (144) was empty. Those are not bad practice balls either.


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