4th Ball and Beyond!

[thekleifheit13]

Also, I'll reply to everyone in the morning. It's a pain to do it on a phone...

 

[Shuki]

Nice! Glad to see you got a chance to watch a recording of yourself! We never look like we think we do during our strokes and when we finally get a chance to see ourselves in video's it can be both enlightening and a great learning experience!

 

[NextLevel]

Current upload speed: 0.16 Mbps...I'll upload video when I get to classes tomorrow. Practice was great, my coach looped pretty hard at me but has a bicep injury hampering his power. He still hit better than anything I've seen at or around my level so I got good blocking practice. After blocking his loops I was able to counter loop some weaker shots from my two teammates. In games, Harsh made me look stupid as usual, which he should at 2000. I was jittery after that match and lost the next one but did well in the third. Just from watching the videos, I'm A LOT less graceful than I thought and I play like I have ants in my pants. Straight whiffed a record number of balls because I was swinging before they even hit my side. Well, ya live and ya learn, looking forward to your feedback and entertainment in the morning!

Playing matches with a 2000 player is far less valuable for someone at your level than hitting with them if they are willing to hit with you. Try to find someone much closer to your level to play with and rarely play players above 1600 if possible (within 400 pts of your rating if you are below 1600, within 300 pts if you are above 1600 and within 200 pts if you are over 2000, and in every case, you will almost always learn more hitting with those players than competing with them). Within half of those rating range is really optimal (200 pts below 1600, 150 pts below 2000 and 100 pts above 2000. There are some 2000 players worth playing, but they need to be the ones who give you a chance to hit the ball (blockers mostly). IF you played me, you may never get that chance on your terms but against some players, you might.

 

[thekleifheit13]

I have to agree with you here, we hit for about a half hour and just played a quick match at the end so it didn't waste much time. I'm still at home and left a video of a match with a temate uploading overnight, it has 2% left to upload and I'll throw it up here.

 

[thekleifheit13]

Not sure if this is how to post it but here goes. Rip it apart if need be! Edit: I'm the guy without sleeves...I know I'm a tool for it but our rec center doesn't turn air conditioning on til May

 

[NextLevel]

thekleifeheit13,

I watched the video. It probably would have been better/helpful to throw in some of your practice strokes as well. You have many of the issues of an adult oriented BH player. Pretty raw technique on both sides but as things stand, definitely far more promise and convention on the backhand side and less on the forehand side. Nothing that can't be fixed with the right training and understanding though.

What are your TT goals?

NL

 

[thekleifheit13]

Yes, I'm working on another upload of a match with a girl that's about at my level but with better strokes and that includes our warmup. I agree with your assessment on all accounts too. My goal for this year is to reach a true 1600 and life goal is to reach 2000. I really like Vladimir Samsonov's play style and would like mine to mimic his as much as I can.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes, I'm working on another upload of a match with a girl that's about at my level but with better strokes and that includes our warmup. I agree with your assessment on all accounts too. My goal for this year is to reach a true 1600 and life goal is to reach 2000. I really like Vladimir Samsonov's play style and would like mine to mimic his as much as I can.

Haha, you have picked an extremely difficult guy to emulate. And you are a lefty too .

Will wait on the video. The thing with matches though is that you see people playing under pressure and unless you know what they practice, you never really understand their aspirations. When I was your rating, I invented strokes in matches that I never practiced all the time and it took a lot of practice and discipline to fix that (well "fix" is a relative term). I still do strokes in matches the revert to form from years past even as I work hard to fix things. So need to see some of your aspirational practice strokes as well.

 

[thekleifheit13]

Yeah, I'm really good at making things tougher on myself but I choke hardcore in matches, I've always had mental strength issues in competition. I didn't hit a topspin shot for the first 3 years I played TT and that makes for tough habits to break. It's all a fun process though so I can't complain

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Okay, here are some things I think might help you:

1) Practice shadow strokes and shadow footwork drills.
2) Get your coach to have you do these simple drills:
a) 2 BH 2 FH; the BHs should be in the BH corner, the FHs could be in the FH corner; that would be one version; the FH could be in the middle of the table; that would be a second version of the same drill.
b) 1 BH 1 FH; same basic details as the first drill, except just one ball to each side so you switch after each ball.
c) coach feeds all balls to BH corner, you take 2 with BH and then you step around and take 2 with FH; the ball keeps going to the same place; but you are switching which wing you use to take the ball.

You rallying skills would be helped by those drills.

One more detail. In the video you just posted, you are better at serving than your friend. But he is probably pretty even with you in rally skills.

In a match like that where you are trying to learn and get better, and you can serve and make your opponent miss when you want and take easy points, when the match is for fun and for learning, and there isn't something real on the line, I would use easier serves to try and get your opponent to get your serve in play so you have a chance to have more extended rallies and work on those rallies. It the score is close at crunch time and you want to pull the game or match out, you can try to use your serve. But, if you just play the whole match winning 6-7 out of 10 of your serves without any rally, then you are denying yourself the chance to get better at what happens when a better player returns your serves.

That also will start opening you up for better game strategy. Trying to win points directly off your serve is fairly low level game strategy. And it won't work on a better opponent.

Instead you want to learn to use your serves to set you up to take control of the rally. If you can throw away the idea of being attached to winning matches for a few months, and get used to setting yourself up with your serve, your game skills will go up.

Your serve strategy as of now is winning you points but it is holding back your progression.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah, I'm really good at making things tougher on myself but I choke hardcore in matches, I've always had mental strength issues in competition. I didn't hit a topspin shot for the first 3 years I played TT and that makes for tough habits to break. It's all a fun process though so I can't complain

It's not choking. It's hard to consistently do something that isn't practiced and based in technique. Choking is when you know how to do something consistently with honed technique but it falls apart under pressure.

I have heard the whole "choking" thing from many people before, including myself. It's amazing how such "choking" in the specific situation mysteriously vanishes when the proper technique is learned and new situations become available to "choke" in and leave the player forgetting that they don't "choke" quite like they believed they did before.

 

[thekleifheit13]

I have to believe that. I work harder in powerlifting than anything else and I do better under pressure there. The funny thing is, form is so paramount that any deviation from ideal ends in injury or embarrassment. I definitely need to groove form

 

[thekleifheit13]

1) thekleifheit13 serves short backspin
2) coach pushes short
3) theknife (I know, I gave you a nickname) pushes long.
4) coachey opens.
5) theknife counters
6) the coach keeps the ball in play and moves the knife around
7) theknife tries to spin everything

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

This is actually the drill my coach and I were doing, he random placed the blocks rather than using a pattern but the premise was the same. I think he's gonna send me to Samson Dubina (US MNT member) to reconstruct my strokes for a couple months after I graduate college. After looking at my video I'm not comfortable with how awkward I am and how inconsistent I am day-to-day and even rally-to-rally.

 

[thekleifheit13]

I still am not great with countering, and a huge hinderance for me for a while was after opening up with a spinny loop, learning how to hit their counter better. You need to decide if you're going to be the kind of player that plays off the table after their opening loop or close to the table with counters.

If you're going to play off the table, make sure to maintain the appropriate distance and just keep looping. But if you want to be more of a "counter topspin player" (which is more of a 5th ball attacker GENERALLY) you'll open up with a third ball and need to get ready for the ball coming back.

I struggle with close to the table counter topspin players quite a bit, especially against the ones who do a low short serve with very little spin. Because I'm so confident in attacking those very little spin balls that I attack it and try to place it well, but I can't put a decent amount of power behind the ball with spin or speed. If you're given a short low ball with not much spin, you cant put much on it.

A counter top-spin player that serves these weak serves is ready with reactions, focused for your attack. They want you to flip that ball, because they're playing for the counter. If you chop the dead low serve, they're ready to open up, and although you couldn't chop very heavy on that dead ball, they can still do a better attack than you could because your chop shouldn't have as much control as their serve had. Their attack for a grazing player is pretty hard to deal with, it's most likely quite a bit flatter than openings you're used to dealing with if they had heavier serves.

It's hard to deal with this flat shot because if you're close to the table you can't block by grazing. You'd have to get behind the ball which is more of a counter-topspin way of playing instead of a looper's style. A looper would have a positioning a bit farther off the table because they're ready for their opponents topspin stroke to come all the way to them, they know the ball will make its way to them and if the opponent doesn't attack the looper should be able to have good footwork to get in close and then back to their positioning off the table again.

I've been struggling back and forth between being a close to the table guy and a far from the table guy. I know the optimal way to deal with this would be to get proficient in both and use whatever is gonna be trouble for my opponent, but I was wondering which to try to work on first. I used to (before ANY coaching) just push/block at the table and smash pop-ups but I was just BAAAD then. After looking at my video I need to learn acceptable form before I really need to worry about this I think.

 

[D_Nizzle]

I've been struggling back and forth between being a close to the table guy and a far from the table guy. I know the optimal way to deal with this would be to get proficient in both and use whatever is gonna be trouble for my opponent, but I was wondering which to try to work on first. I used to (before ANY coaching) just push/block at the table and smash pop-ups but I was just BAAAD then. After looking at my video I need to learn acceptable form before I really need to worry about this I think.

You don't have to be one or the other - a close or back from the table player. Different shots from your opponent, and different shots that you're trying to do will require you to be close or back from the table in the same point. That close to the table style is usually reserved for players with some immobility issues - ok not always - but usually. Generally you should try to have an allround game in which you move back and forward somewhat according to your and your opponents shots.for example usually block close to the table and usually loop a step back from the table.so overall don't overthink the distinction

 

[ttmonster]

Okay, let me chime in as well.
I absolutely loved your enthusiasm and love for the game. Somehow , it shows through even a video .

Now as Carl and NextLevel and others have said before me , there are a lot of issues , but as you said its all incremental improvement.

What I think you should start with is to change your thinking .. you are obviously a very good basement players who have decided to go mainstream, which is good ? How do I know it , the ping pong backhand comes out in some rallies .

So start thinking that table tennis is more a leg and core exercise than an arm .

You have to start by first changing your backhand serve . At the moment of contact you should be transferring weight from your right leg to a left leg since you are a lefty ... and this concept is true for all shots
whether serve, backhand or forehand , topsin or chop or push ...

the only reason your friend is winning some of the rallies even though his technique is also not very advanced, he has shorter strokes than you and is able to take the ball earlier.

So , I would do a basic drill where you serve short underspin and ask your friend to push long , heavy , light, no spin, underspin and you have to loop the 3rd ball crosscourt , really spinny. Infact, so spinny that if your friend blocks he cannot control it or it goes out . Once you can do this consistently on the table, then move on to some variations on placement , spin and when you are taking the ball, early or late etc.

 

[Der_Echte]

Just about every fundamental you can name needs attention. That can be good, you got a lot of slate to work with. With enough structured training, it will all slowly slowly slowly get better with some better gains and some loses in progress.

The fact that you registered for a TT forum, actively share and discuss, reveal yourself in a vid and are willing to accept comments and go ahead shows more promise than an average joker.

 

[NextLevel]

I have to believe that. I work harder in powerlifting than anything else and I do better under pressure there. The funny thing is, form is so paramount that any deviation from ideal ends in injury or embarrassment. I definitely need to groove form

I played a guy who was once 2300 and is now older and more injured and moving between 1950 and 2150. He missed a lot of his fast long serves. He didn't call himself a choker, he said that is what happens when you can't put in the hours of practice repeatedly out loud in the match

So yes, you need to groove form. One problem here is that you have a coach and it is not really helpful for two people to coach one person. Some things can get lost in translation and philosophical differences can cause confusion. But if you want to continue with this, you have to post video of you doing your basic strokes that you aspire to have - forehand hit/block, forehand loop, backhand hit/block, backhand loop, forehand push, backhand push and then anything else that catches your attention.

Grooving form is the biggest thing - it is best to do it by yourself hitting balls after dropping them on the table and using your camera to record yourself, pause every 5-10 minutes, review the video and make changes. People who don't record themselves need mirrors or very active coaching to get good fast. And unless your coach is experienced or just gifted, it's hard to find people you can pay for that unless they have been good apprentices for a while.

 

[ttmonster]

my bad , since you are a lefty you should be moving your weight from your left to your right . see how ingrained table tennis in subconscious ? I am a right hander so even though I was trying to reverse it for you I made a mistake.

There are lot of good help available online to reinforce the basic concepts, try brett clarke or table tennis master.

There was great post and translation done by Der_Echte of his favorite korean player which is kind of a bible for table tennis technique , even though its his version

Point is table tennis is a quick sport so you want to minimize the number of joints that are creating power, and at the same time use them for transmitting the power from your big muscles and your balance shift , essentially use gravity to generate power . Our biggest muscles are in our legs and that can give you the upward power instead of your shoulder , and the biggest muscles that can generate forward motion is in our waist and abdomen so use them to generate your forward power . And the power has to get translated through your arm onto the table tennis ball.

Okay, let me chime in as well.
I absolutely loved your enthusiasm and love for the game. Somehow , it shows through even a video .

Now as Carl and NextLevel and others have said before me , there are a lot of issues , but as you said its all incremental improvement.

What I think you should start with is to change your thinking .. you are obviously a very good basement players who have decided to go mainstream, which is good ? How do I know it , the ping pong backhand comes out in some rallies .

So start thinking that table tennis is more a leg and core exercise than an arm .

You have to start by first changing your backhand serve . At the moment of contact you should be transferring weight from your right leg to a left leg since you are a lefty ... and this concept is true for all shots
whether serve, backhand or forehand , topsin or chop or push ...

the only reason your friend is winning some of the rallies even though his technique is also not very advanced, he has shorter strokes than you and is able to take the ball earlier.

So , I would do a basic drill where you serve short underspin and ask your friend to push long , heavy , light, no spin, underspin and you have to loop the 3rd ball crosscourt , really spinny. Infact, so spinny that if your friend blocks he cannot control it or it goes out . Once you can do this consistently on the table, then move on to some variations on placement , spin and when you are taking the ball, early or late etc.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

This is actually the drill my coach and I were doing, he random placed the blocks rather than using a pattern but the premise was the same.

In the drill you quoted from me, that is exactly what I was suggesting. But in seeing footage of you, it seems to me that you need to work on linking FH and BH. You transition can be improved very easily and it will help you improve a decent amount quickly. There are a few things you can practice that will make that transition improve fairly quickly.

Based on what I saw in the video, these are the things I think you need on for now:

1) You should practice shadow strokes while watching yourself in the mirror.

2) You should also practice shadow stroke & footwork drills while watching yourself in the mirror. The first two will help you get the coordination of moving and then taking a good stroke.

3) Those drills for BH to FH:
a) 2 BH - 2 FH
b) 1BH - 1 FH
The way I described them in an earlier post.

4) And this drill which is an adaptation of ones you are already doing:
--a) player A serves short backspin
--b) player B pushes short
--c) player A pushes long
--d) player B loops the push
--e) player A returns the opening any way he can
--f) rally continues with coach moving you around randomly
***With this drill, you should switch who serves after every 2 serves so that half the time you have to execute the short push (it should be a double bounce push) and the opening loop. And half the time you push long and you have to counter your coach's opening loop.

Based on watching, I think those drills will help you improve a decent amount.