4th Ball and Beyond!

[D_Nizzle]

Some day, I will film my practice with the 900 player and get people to comment. Now we can debate whether he really is 900 but he is not 1500. He does have the hand speed of a 2000+ player. The key thing is hand speed. If the hand speed/acceleration on your stroke is really good, you can learn and practice anything. Whether it should be your dominant focus should be more about what is required to get you to the next level, but I still believe in showing people everything and letting their comfort with risk determine what they actually decide to do in matches. I have been counterlooping seriously for a little over a year now and I wish I had started earlier as it would have taken my game in a different direction.

The main reason why people don't try these things is that they focus too much on putting the ball on the table rather than on building out proper technique. But the main reason people miss putting the ball on the table is because they either misread the spin (and hence the contact point) or they lack the hand speed to spin the ball sufficiently to put the ball on the table. But these are all things that will improve as long as someone is patient and willing to accept the growing pains. As I am getting better, I am learning that if you have the right timing and the right equipment, you can loop just about anything.

That’s a good message about building technique and hand speed. But, I’ll stick to my guns about looping an extremely spinny, low and well-placed powerloop – which seems to be what this thread was about … or I’m very lost. Even the pros usually block good powerloops – particularly if they are close to the table. You could counterloop but it would be a low-percentage shot. OK, it’s semantics. You ‘can’ loop anything – but you ‘shouldn’t’ loop everything.

 

[NextLevel]

That’s a good message about building technique and hand speed. But, I’ll stick to my guns about looping an extremely spinny, low and well-placed powerloop – which seems to be what this thread was about … or I’m very lost. Even the pros usually block good powerloops – particularly if they are close to the table. You could counterloop but it would be a low-percentage shot. OK, it’s semantics. You ‘can’ loop anything – but you ‘shouldn’t’ loop everything.

Very often, a block is often just a shorter version of your full stroke - there are kick blocks and short counters. Very often, when you see a pro player blocking, he is doing a kick block or counter, which is often a mini-loop. OF course, it is sometimes a dead block, but my point is that when I say loop everything, what I mean is to learn to impart spin to control the ball. I don't mean to literally play full power loops against every ball.

 

[thekleifheit13]

The overall goal my coach set for me for this year is to learn to impart good spin on the ball on every shot. I can do that against pretty much everything except for an opponent's power loop. Even really fast drives don't give me much trouble blocking and I can get some attacks in if I happen to be in position. It's when my opponent gets good spin on his/her loops is where I get into trouble. As it's been said already, that doesn't really happen until 1600 or so. I don't want to jump the gun and get ahead of myself but that's the level of play that's giving me trouble in club play and league play.

 

[NextLevel]

The overall goal my coach set for me for this year is to learn to impart good spin on the ball on every shot. I can do that against pretty much everything except for an opponent's power loop. Even really fast drives don't give me much trouble blocking and I can get some attacks in if I happen to be in position. It's when my opponent gets good spin on his/her loops is where I get into trouble. As it's been said already, that doesn't really happen until 1600 or so. I don't want to jump the gun and get ahead of myself but that's the level of play that's giving me trouble in club play and league play.

Usually, when I read posts like your original post, the first thing I post is that you need to post video of yourself to get proper feedback. That is obviously still true here.

It's really hard for me to accept the notion of a 1200 player generating heavy spin. But again, video helps me come to grips with it. We had Archosaurus for a while claiming he had heavy spin, but the video revealed how dead his rubber was.

That said, having the timing, feel and hand acceleration to deal with heavy spins of all types takes time for everyone. IT's a learning process and some get it faster than others. But there are elements of stroke technique that make it easier or harder. It makes no sense for me to write about them in detail when a simple video would help us see your stroke and whether it needs any fixes. You already have a coach so you can stick with that too.

In the end though, when dealing with heavy spin close to the table, most people do a combination of avoiding it and using it even when trying to generate heavy spin against it. At a certain level of play, the spin is too much for you to consistently take it head on so you have to use spin avoidance techniques or play at a distance where the spin dissipates a bit more.

 

[thekleifheit13]

I understand your skepticism and it may be well founded NextLevel, what I'm claiming is in relation to what I've seen at the levels I've talked about. I'll get video tonight of myself playing and put it up here. I like that you guys don't sugar coat your skepticism, it keeps us all pretty honest about our playing.

 

[D_Nizzle]

The overall goal my coach set for me for this year is to learn to impart good spin on the ball on every shot. I can do that against pretty much everything except for an opponent's power loop. Even really fast drives don't give me much trouble blocking and I can get some attacks in if I happen to be in position. It's when my opponent gets good spin on his/her loops is where I get into trouble. As it's been said already, that doesn't really happen until 1600 or so. I don't want to jump the gun and get ahead of myself but that's the level of play that's giving me trouble in club play and league play.

Like I’ve said before – I wouldn’t get too worried if you can’t counterloop a good powerloop – because this is a low percentage shot anyway – in my opinion. Instead, I suggest an active attacking block like what NextLevel was talking about. Be careful because passive blocking can be dangerous against a strong powerloop – you usually need to add some force to counteract the spin on the ball. Wait for the lesser-quality high and slow powerloops to attack with a loop. Brett Clarke has a YouTube video on this. He suggests the hook and the fade – basically contacting the ball away from its axis of rotation. Personally, I never counterloop a good powerloop. Maybe that’s not everyone’s cup of tea – but I like having that certainty in a game environment. I feel my opponent will give me lots of other opportunities to attack –high powerloops, long pushes etc – I wait for them and respect his good shots.

 

[NextLevel]

I understand your skepticism and it may be well founded NextLevel, what I'm claiming is in relation to what I've seen at the levels I've talked about. I'll get video tonight of myself playing and put it up here. I like that you guys don't sugar coat your skepticism, it keeps us all pretty honest about our playing.

Hey, I wrote about a 900 player counterlooping with me close to the table. If I didn't see it with my own eyes, I would have laughed it off as someone's fairy tale. Ultimately, we are just trying to help though. And yes, spin is relative to level, but I really believe anyone who learns to consistently generate good spin on his strokes and serves breaks 1600 within 6 months or less of doing so.

 

[thekleifheit13]

Yeah, I play with/against a guy who is a true 1150 but gets there via subpar serves/receives but plays about 1600 away from the table. Some people just naturally are better at certain parts of the game than others and it's odd to see. Also, don't take what I said as anything passive-aggressive - I know that kind of thing can be misconstrued in text. I really do appreciate that you guys handle us newer guys the way you do, I'd rather be realistic about my skills than believe I'm better than I actually am and hinder progress!

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah, I play with/against a guy who is a true 1150 but gets there via subpar serves/receives but plays about 1600 away from the table. Some people just naturally are better at certain parts of the game than others and it's odd to see. Also, don't take what I said as anything passive-aggressive - I know that kind of thing can be misconstrued in text. I really do appreciate that you guys handle us newer guys the way you do, I'd rather be realistic about my skills than believe I'm better than I actually am and hinder progress!

I didn't at all and I appreciate the clarification. What you are saying about how our game level is different for different strokes and phases is completely true. It's usually a matter of the differences between being able to read and manipulate spin and speed close to the table and off it. Carl talks about a tennis player who can counterloop and return long serves like a 2400 player but returns short serves like a 1200 player. I find that if you groove the right kind of loop, then you can adapt it to any ball. The complication is reading the ball's rotation and how to adjust your stroke to it.

I look forward to your video.

 

[thekleifheit13]

Say my phone is my only means of recording and I have no stand, would a distant video from bleachers be OK for this or should I try to redneck engineer something closer to the table?

 

[NextLevel]

Say my phone is my only means of recording and I have no stand, would a distant video from bleachers be OK for this or should I try to redneck engineer something closer to the table?

Redneck engineer is ideal but something is better than nothing. Something from the front of the table would be ideal -second best something behind you and worst but still passable is something from the side. I usually place a camera in the right corner as this leads to the least obstruction when dealing with two right handed players. All these recommendations are based on how people watch and analyze matches or the people they coach.

 

[laistrogian]

Hey, I wrote about a 900 player counterlooping with me close to the table. If I didn't see it with my own eyes, I would have laughed it off as someone's fairy tale. Ultimately, we are just trying to help though. And yes, spin is relative to level, but I really believe anyone who learns to consistently generate good spin on his strokes and serves breaks 1600 within 6 months or less of doing so.

That 900 player must've been really gifted with excellent reflex and timing judgement. I find most of the time to counter-loop a ball the player first must be able to feel comfortable blocking it because IMO the importance of fine touch in counter-looping is usually underestimated

 

[NextLevel]

That 900 player must've been really gifted with excellent reflex and timing judgement. I find most of the time to counter-loop a ball the player first must be able to feel comfortable blocking it because IMO the importance of fine touch in counter-looping is usually underestimated

I know what you mean and if you had asked me the same thing a year ago, I would have agreed with you almost completely. I have learned a lot in the past year and I think that the real problem is that people are too focused on getting the ball on the table and do not realize how quickly the brain can adapt if you give it technique that is sound and relatively low risk. Building something like what he currently has may require you to miss 1000 balls in practice on a few days, probably about 50-90% of those ball consecutively. Most adult learners would cry before going through that. And it is that attitude that frustrates the learning process.

The first day I hit with him, I found it amazing that I was struggling to keep up with him at my max effort level back then. But I myself have only been trying seriously to loop and counterloop close to the table for about a year now and the results are just kicking in meaningfully. Again, this is close to the table, not backing up significantly.

I was pretty proud of this match, as well beaten as I was. And even after the match, I improved even more a few hours later!

The black guy is the 900 guy.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Darn it NextLevel, you stole my thunder. Hahaha.

No, for real, my friend is an ex-Pro tennis player and all he is interested in doing is mid-distance loop rallying. His overall level is probably somewhere between 1600-1800 because, if he is playing an 1800 level player and can just get the serve on the table and play defense until he is in the rally and gets a chance to counterloop, there is no 1800 level player who can stand a chance in an extended rally with him. He's just too good at seeing the ball, tracking it, getting there and launching bombs. He is also pretty good at chopping heavy loop with Tenergy. Crazy.

I have a friend who is a tentative 2000. He goes over 2000 and drops back over and over. He and my tennis friend played a game where the first serve is just backhand crosscourt, the next shot is crosscourt as well. And then it is open rally.

The server still has the advantage because the server opens the random play. This guy who is 2000 level, playing this game against my tennis friend who only trains mid-distance looping had absolutely NO CHANCE in that game.

The 2000 even started cheating and opening the random on the receive of the feed in when tennis man was "serving" and the 2000 still didn't have a chance.

That kind of training where you start of crosscourt and, eventually the rally ends up random looping from mid-distance is a ton of fun.

My friend the tennis player is also a tennis coach. He is just about my age so, 50+. He is comfortable saying that most table tennis players below 2000 are lagging way behind on that skill he is so good at.

Practicing it is worth it.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

But in reading the sort of discovery process of what our OP needs to work on, something dawns on me!!!!

First off, I 100% agree with NL that good blocking technique is tied to good countering technique. And if the training is good, a player can counter and choose the force he wants on that counter.

One thing I feel with this when I counter, timing, the right contact, delicate contact with good racket speed, but very little force or effort can give you a monster counter and a very safe shot because you are using the spin of the other player to give you power (pace and spin).

So, what dawned on me that is missing??? A drill for training for a specific technique that appears to be missing.

1) thekleifheit13 serves short backspin
2) coach pushes short
3) theknife (I know, I gave you a nickname) pushes long.
4) coachey opens.
5) theknife counters
6) the coach keeps the ball in play and moves the knife around
7) theknife tries to spin everything

I will explain the drill after I teach my next class.


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[Archosaurus]

This kind of advice is a mistake. If the OP has a good loop vs backspin or block (and most players at 1200 do not, but this is a coach's choice), he should learn to countertopspin immediately. MY view is based on the idea that if you have the proper stroke form, your strokes will improve as your level improves, but that if you do not have the right instincts, it will take forever to build them. Just learn all the strokes that your coach thinks you require to play the way you want to play long term. People look at countertopspin as something special, but kids do it all the time if their coaches show them as they do not think it is something special. I know a 900 rated adult who countertopspins with me all the time. Obviously other parts of his game are lagging, but that is the point.

It seems US players and coaches are very much against countering a topspin stroke with topspin, and instead opt to block everything until about 2600, if they ever reach that level. It might be doctrine and how players are trained, or it might be belief that such a technique is reserved to the top hundreds.

Let us remember that looping was commonly thought of as an extremely advanced technique and not taught to beginners at all just some ten years ago.



Video footage would be good. Posting a few videos of myself has given me more direction than all the bullshitting in the world could. Chances are, what you think you're doing and what other people see you're doing are a bit different.

 

[Shuki]

Hmm, I don't think countering and blocking are always directly related. They weren't for me at least. I have to focus pretty hard on being ready to be able to counter a ball because I have to go through the ball with a more full stroke. The majority of my strokes are very grazing strokes which I've learned isn't good all the time. I've had lots of complaint about how "soft" I blocked back loops, but with high level players when I block back their spinny loop soft a few times, they learn to adjust and start placing the ball better or learn to finish after the soft block better by moving closer to the table than they're used to after their opener.

Players that adjusted to how soft my block was started kicking my ass all the time, this is when I realized I needed to learn how to counter better. I still am not great with countering, and a huge hinderance for me for a while was after opening up with a spinny loop, learning how to hit their counter better. You need to decide if you're going to be the kind of player that plays off the table after their opening loop or close to the table with counters.

If you're going to play off the table, make sure to maintain the appropriate distance and just keep looping. But if you want to be more of a "counter topspin player" (which is more of a 5th ball attacker GENERALLY) you'll open up with a third ball and need to get ready for the ball coming back.

I struggle with close to the table counter topspin players quite a bit, especially against the ones who do a low short serve with very little spin. Because I'm so confident in attacking those very little spin balls that I attack it and try to place it well, but I can't put a decent amount of power behind the ball with spin or speed. If you're given a short low ball with not much spin, you cant put much on it.

A counter top-spin player that serves these weak serves is ready with reactions, focused for your attack. They want you to flip that ball, because they're playing for the counter. If you chop the dead low serve, they're ready to open up, and although you couldn't chop very heavy on that dead ball, they can still do a better attack than you could because your chop shouldn't have as much control as their serve had. Their attack for a grazing player is pretty hard to deal with, it's most likely quite a bit flatter than openings you're used to dealing with if they had heavier serves.

It's hard to deal with this flat shot because if you're close to the table you can't block by grazing. You'd have to get behind the ball which is more of a counter-topspin way of playing instead of a looper's style. A looper would have a positioning a bit farther off the table because they're ready for their opponents topspin stroke to come all the way to them, they know the ball will make its way to them and if the opponent doesn't attack the looper should be able to have good footwork to get in close and then back to their positioning off the table again.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

My rating is ~1100 and I routinely met kids on tourneys that can do well only one thing: counterloop on FH. They cannot attack backspin consistently even softly, they have no backhand, they just wait for you to loop so they can counter. I have a theory how they develop that kind of game. They are often Chinese and coached by they parents. So the parents want to keep the kid in the sport and try to make the game as fun as possible, and nothing is more fun than counterlooping rallies. So they practice them a lot and nothing else. I don't know if it is really that way, just a hypothesis.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

So I am going to neglect to read what came after my second post and explain the reason for that drill even though I think, for some, it may be obvious.

By practicing countering an opening loop, a loop that has more spin, and a decent one, theknife (sorry, it's easier than your real user name) [emoji2] will learn the touch first for blocking a loop with heavy spin better and over time he will learn the touch for counterlooping a loop with heavy spin. If you can counter an opening loop, you can counter a regular loop too. It is really about feeling it and about the touch to do it.

@Shuki: If you missed NextLevel's presentation of the progression from counterhit to high-level block of loop, to counterloop, I would say, that information is worth looking at.

When I watch guys who are 2500-2700 counterhit and then I watch them block loops, they are invariably doing the same exact thing. Then when I watch them clown around and slip a few counterloops in while blocking loop--go figure--it is still the same thing with a slightly faster racket speed and a slightly bigger stroke but a much bigger bang. That is called efficiency.

They are not doing the stick your racket out and hope version of blocking. As you get better at it, blocking is actually a very small counter hit or counter loop stroke. And the contact can be very delicate and refined.

The more theknife gets used to counterlooping his coaches open-ups--you know opening loops that his coach is intending him to be able to return--the better his touch for blocking and countering heavy topspin will become.

That drill I described, or any drill where theknife is trying to counter his coaches heavy topspin, not fast but heavy, the better he will get at counterlooping.

Hope this info helps.


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[thekleifheit13]

Current upload speed: 0.16 Mbps...I'll upload video when I get to classes tomorrow. Practice was great, my coach looped pretty hard at me but has a bicep injury hampering his power. He still hit better than anything I've seen at or around my level so I got good blocking practice. After blocking his loops I was able to counter loop some weaker shots from my two teammates. In games, Harsh made me look stupid as usual, which he should at 2000. I was jittery after that match and lost the next one but did well in the third. Just from watching the videos, I'm A LOT less graceful than I thought and I play like I have ants in my pants. Straight whiffed a record number of balls because I was swinging before they even hit my side. Well, ya live and ya learn, looking forward to your feedback and entertainment in the morning!