4th Ball and Beyond!

[UpSideDownCarl]

Hopefully to inspire Knife and to show people that it is possible for 900 rated players to counterloop:

That's awesome. His stroke will be pretty damn good when he can track the ball and see the trajectory a little better. The mechanics are there.

My guess is, if he gets to play with you every so often, his rating will be going up fairly soon. Sometimes you just have to connect a few things and the different pieces of the jigsaw puzzle of your game fall into place.

 

[thekleifheit13]

I'll see about grabbing half a bucket of the super duper brand less balls the gay games gave us for letting them use our equipment. At our club we have probably 300 balls and I can use them, the only issue is using a lot at our rec center because people have no respect for TT and will step on the balls and get pissed at me for letting them be there. On top of that I have a hell of a temper and would rather not go to prison for tomahawking a Genote blade through a punk's head but I'll see what I can do about it.

@NextLevel - that guy looks pretty solid, is it his over the table game that's keeping his rating lower? I see that footwork and coordination aren't perfect but he is able to hit pretty well.

 

[NextLevel]

I'll see about grabbing half a bucket of the super duper brand less balls the gay games gave us for letting them use our equipment. At our club we have probably 300 balls and I can use them, the only issue is using a lot at our rec center because people have no respect for TT and will step on the balls and get pissed at me for letting them be there. On top of that I have a hell of a temper and would rather not go to prison for tomahawking a Genote blade through a punk's head but I'll see what I can do about it.

@NextLevel - that guy looks pretty solid, is it his over the table game that's keeping his rating lower? I see that footwork and coordination aren't perfect but he is able to hit pretty well.

It's his relative inexperience. He hasn't played long enough to be able to read spin off people's strokes and the ball trajectory. So he misses a lot of balls in matches by not adjusting his stroke to them. The other things that hold him back are minor compared to that.

Part of the reason I posted this is because too many people focus on building strokes that keep the ball on the table rather than strokes that have good form and racket head speed and then figuring out how to use those strokes to keep the ball on the table. The second approach gets better much faster and leads to a more powerful game. If I could time travel, I would go back in time and give myself the problem he is having now - I kept my blocking and pushing game way too long because I confused keeping the ball on the table with having good strokes.

 

[thekleifheit13]

You're looking at a guy who's still trying to break out of my pushing and blocking game. Luckily I never really hit much topspin until I had a little coaching so I'm in the camp of "tries to swing too hard" but it still isn't great for an all-round offensive game. I think your guy here will probably develop real fast once spin clicks in his head

 

[NextLevel]

You're looking at a guy who's still trying to break out of my pushing and blocking game. Luckily I never really hit much topspin until I had a little coaching so I'm in the camp of "tries to swing too hard" but it still isn't great for an all-round offensive game. I think your guy here will probably develop real fast once spin clicks in his head

It's not about swinging too hard - it is about learning the right contact and mechanics for generating spin and stressing the rubber to its limits. As you get better, you have to learn to stress the combination of rubber and wood to its limits. If you can't create that friction with thin and thick brush and selecting the right contact to pick up the ball when appropriate, then your ability to generate spin becomes limited and your game control will cap out with your touch.

IF you learn how to generate spin on serves, spin on loops, spin on pushes etc. then you progressively try to increase that spin and then learn to vary that spin, your game becomes pretty strong pretty fast. Unfortunately, most amateurs just try to get enough spin to hit the ball in a way that qualifies as being technically a topspin stroke and stop there. It's really something you must continue to push - to find the timing and contact to produce more and more spin in any situation vs any ball and then try to learn to vary the spin to speed ratio as desired. In a sense, my friend above is still at that level where he can get a certain spin to speed ration which is pretty high with his swing. But if he has required to adjust the spin to speed ration to get more safety against a certain kind of ball based on his evaluation of the incoming spin and speed, he still isn't there yet. But that's the kind of thing I can do to reduce my margin for error.

 

[ttmonster]

knife , did you look at the video I made to illustrate what I was telling you ? asking because it got posted towards the end of last page .. hope it helped ..

 

[thekleifheit13]

Oops, I missed it. I'll watch it here in a bit

 

[ttmonster]

Okay , I thought you might have missed it, I miss a lot of posts especially because of the pagination ...

Oops, I missed it. I'll watch it here in a bit

 

[Der_Echte]

@NextLevel - that guy looks pretty solid, is it his over the table game that's keeping his rating lower? I see that footwork and coordination aren't perfect but he is able to hit pretty well.

Of course, I am not the one and only Next Level, but I saw his good response to your question and wanted to add to it to support his main point of not being able to accurately discern someone's level by a shot sequence or two.

In Korean Amature TT, it is not uncommon to see total newb who took lessons from coach for just two months stand close to the table and DRILL 100 in a row FH FAST drives bang bang to exactly the FH corner with an advanced player.

Looking at such a lad or lass do that for 5 minutes straight without a miss (unless the ball hit a net) you would instantly think they are USATT 2000 (Korean City Div 1) material and start to get a little apprehensive about playing vs them. Yet, when you do a match, they do not yet know how to read spin in the least, and miss receiving many serves, plus their serves are not developed, plus they have no opening topspin whatsoever, even if you paid them $10,000 USD to attempt one. Such players are not yet 1000 USATT newb level, but they look SO Friggin' AWESUM doing practice strokes.

Nexy Level broke down why a player can do an advanced stroke better than some 2000 level players, yet still have an overall game truly under 1000 USATT level. The looks can be deceiving, until you see more of the player in different situations.

Another supporting piece is my tourney last weekend. A kid named Sameer, a student of Coach l. Hodges (Man, if S-Jan waz here I would tease S-Jan by calling him esteemed Rev. Hodges) haha, I saw Larry Hodges prepare him simply by doing rally strokes at a medium fast past without super duper topspin, just the usual bang bang stuff a step or so off the table... I saw 1800-2000 USATT level player after player try to outlast him in such rallies and lost so many of these rallies and had the saddest and most puzzled faces you could imagine. Here is a guy most of them know that similar 1800-2000 USATT level rated Der_Echte smoked in the U2000 group just two weeks ago with a score of 0,3,6 (YES, I said ZERO ghost rider... and i was damned ashamed of doing that deed) to Sameer rated in mid 1500s... a player they should EASILY defeat knowing Der_Echte sent him to the seats in three... now this kid is showing FIGHT and killing them in such rallies. So what does that 1800+ USATT rated crowd do??? They double-down bet the farm and were even MORE determined to get into and attempt (horribly and unsuccessfully) to out-do that guy in the SAME kind of fast rallies. You know what happened when they continued that... Needless to say, Sameer will not be rated any where near mid 1500s after this tourney gets processed.

That is another example kinda similar, but with opponents' brain dead tactics and the appearance of 1500s rating.

EDIT Number TWO: The last point supports Next Level's long-standing advice to learn to spin the ball as much as you can and still be consistent. SLOW heavy spin is such a time disruption, and so is a sudden heavy spin ball to their pocket.

 

[Der_Echte]

Oh Kleif... if you DO decide to chuck the Genote, have someone standing by recording that scene with a Samsung NOTE 5... the vid image of that sucka is darned good. Your footage might be used in the next Holloywood Blood and Glory war movie.

 

[NextLevel]

EDIT Number TWO: The last point supports Next Level's long-standing advice to learn to spin the ball as much as you can and still be consistent. SLOW heavy spin is such a time disruption, and so is a sudden heavy spin ball to their pocket.

THe thing is that at the highest levels, all they are often doing is playing with fast heavy spin and their athleticism allows them to generate so much power that they can spin the ball heavy and fast. Us amateurs can't do that so we gave to settle for slow heavy spin. But if people knew how much power the top players were generating and putting into spin, they would appreciate better how critical spin is and how overrated speed is. Those guys can hit the ball much harder than their matches show. THe ball would probably just break.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Those guys can hit the ball much harder than their matches show. THe ball would probably just break.

Sometimes the ball does just break. Especially with these cheapo plastic balls. [emoji2]

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

It's not about swinging too hard - it is about learning the right contact and mechanics for generating spin and stressing the rubber to its limits. As you get better, you have to learn to stress the combination of rubber and wood to its limits. If you can't create that friction with thin and thick brush and selecting the right contact to pick up the ball when appropriate, then your ability to generate spin becomes limited and your game control will cap out with your touch.

IF you learn how to generate spin on serves, spin on loops, spin on pushes etc. then you progressively try to increase that spin and then learn to vary that spin, your game becomes pretty strong pretty fast. Unfortunately, most amateurs just try to get enough spin to hit the ball in a way that qualifies as being technically a topspin stroke and stop there. It's really something you must continue to push - to find the timing and contact to produce more and more spin in any situation vs any ball and then try to learn to vary the spin to speed ratio as desired. In a sense, my friend above is still at that level where he can get a certain spin to speed ration which is pretty high with his swing. But if he has required to adjust the spin to speed ration to get more safety against a certain kind of ball based on his evaluation of the incoming spin and speed, he still isn't there yet. But that's the kind of thing I can do to reduce my margin for error.

This is truly an awesome post. If you understand what NL is saying, it is a game changer in a big way. Only someone who has felt that could put it into words so clearly and concisely. Read this several times. When you have felt it and understand it, you will be on your way to higher level spin and technique.

 

[NextLevel]

Okay , I thought you might have missed it, I miss a lot of posts especially because of the pagination ...

I think What causes your old stroke to put stress on the shoulder is that you probably reach out too far to the ball when doing it. In general, a helpful tip Brett gave me when I analyzed someone's backhand with pips that I should have remembered from my own history with the backhand is that your elbow should almost never be completely straight when playing a backhand or you have likely played the ball too far out of your sweet spot. While I have not rewatched your old videos, I suspect that this is more of the problem and not the wrist pronation. If it is, remember to keep your arm mostly bent through out your stroke and to keep your elbow largely mobile within a certain area relative to your body (and not reach for the ball). That should reduce the strain on your shoulder during your strokes no matter what technique you use.

 

[ttmonster]

Thanks NextLevel, I will try it out today when I play. My coach used to tell me the same thing, but the older technique has a very small optimal striking zone . What that means is that for anything that is wide backhand I need to move over to take it inside my body and I end up moving and tracking the ball and striking the ball simultaneously. How do I solve that issue ? Am I slow because of my knee issues or is it because my ball judgment is not up to the mark since its kind of a blind spot ? These are the questions I keep asking myself ? Let me know if you can shed some light with your own experience ..

I think What causes your old stroke to put stress on the shoulder is that you probably reach out too far to the ball when doing it. In general, a helpful tip Brett gave me when I analyzed someone's backhand with pips that I should have remembered from my own history with the backhand is that your elbow should almost never be completely straight when playing a backhand or you have likely played the ball too far out of your sweet spot. While I have not rewatched your old videos, I suspect that this is more of the problem and not the wrist pronation. If it is, remember to keep your arm mostly bent through out your stroke and to keep your elbow largely mobile within a certain area relative to your body (and not reach for the ball). That should reduce the strain on your shoulder during your strokes no matter what technique you use.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

What ttmonster described with the BH and supination of hand from the RadioUlnar joint, I think that is the same thing that Mark Croitoroo told me I should do. I don't think I do it. But he told me I should. He said you get more power from closing the racket while keeping your wrist more neutral.

Then one time I watched Damien Provost teaching and he was showing someone to do the same thing. But then when I watched his BH, right after he showed it, he wasn't doing it either. LOL


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Thanks NextLevel, I will try it out today when I play. My coach used to tell me the same thing, but the older technique has a very small optimal striking zone . What that means is that for anything that is wide backhand I need to move over to take it inside my body and I end up moving and tracking the ball and striking the ball simultaneously. How do I solve that issue ? Am I slow because of my knee issues or is it because my ball judgment is not up to the mark since its kind of a blind spot ? These are the questions I keep asking myself ? Let me know if you can shed some light with your own experience ..

More from Marky Mark Croitoroo. Before his shoulder injury that has sidelined him for the past 7-8 months he had been training in Europe. At Schlager Academy they were teaching him how to track the ball with his feet not with his hand. Most of us who are trained later track the ball with our hand and make little adjustments to track and contact by changing the arm and the stroke. They were teaching him to make those adjustments with his feet so the stroke stayed more uniform.

But it is freakin' hard to do. It would take a lot of training.

So cut yourself some slack. Your technique is pretty decent.

But if you ever decide to train full time to try and break the 2700 sound barrier, then after you work 32 hours a day 9 days a week for 16 months in one year at Schlager Academy, then the next place to go is the CNT training facilities in China.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

More from Marky Mark Croitoroo. Before his shoulder injury that has sidelined him for the past 7-8 months he had been training in Europe. At Schlager Academy they were teaching him how to track the ball with his feet not with his hand. Most of us who are trained later track the ball with our hand and make little adjustments to track and contact by changing the arm and the stroke. They were teaching him to make those adjustments with his feet so the stroke stayed more uniform.

Is it different from "standard" footwork?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

As far as I know, it was the same footwork. They just had a method of working to really get him to make those tiny adjustments that made it so he was more consistently and more precisely in the right place so that if a ball was 2 inches to the left he actually moved his feet, not his arm or his body.

I remember watching Fang Bo play Dora Kurimay. Dora is about 2350. FB, back then was about 2850. He always had the ball very exactly lined up regardless of where she hit it.

I believe Mark was describing training that would make the footwork much more on target.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[Ilia Minkin]

They just had a method of working to really get him to make those tiny adjustments that made it so he was more consistently and more precisely in the right place so that if a ball was 2 inches to the left he actually moved his feet, not his arm or his body.

Wow, that is interesting. I really wonder how this method looks like. In many interviews (e.g. podcasts with Richard Prause, Marcos Freitas) professionals say that they just do large volumes of basic footwork drills.