4th Ball and Beyond!

[ttmonster]

Ha ha !!
Thats exactly what I am saying Carl, I want to cut myself some slack and hence instead of trying to track everything with footwork I wanted to have some freedom in my technique where I can track the ball down with my hand instead of my feet.

What I am trying to say is I found that with the older technique, if I tuck my elbow back like NextLevel and my coach suggests , which is the right way to go , its difficult to take balls which are outside the strike zone without using power from shoulder or moving feet.

More from Marky Mark Croitoroo. Before his shoulder injury that has sidelined him for the past 7-8 months he had been training in Europe. At Schlager Academy they were teaching him how to track the ball with his feet not with his hand. Most of us who are trained later track the ball with our hand and make little adjustments to track and contact by changing the arm and the stroke. They were teaching him to make those adjustments with his feet so the stroke stayed more uniform.

But it is freakin' hard to do. It would take a lot of training.

So cut yourself some slack. Your technique is pretty decent.

But if you ever decide to train full time to try and break the 2700 sound barrier, then after you work 32 hours a day 9 days a week for 16 months in one year at Schlager Academy, then the next place to go is the CNT training facilities in China.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Wow, that is interesting. I really wonder how this method looks like. In many interviews (e.g. podcasts with Richard Prause, Marcos Freitas) professionals say that they just do large volumes of basic footwork drills.

I think that is all it really is. But with one of those coaches seeing when your feet are not in the right place and getting you to track the ball better and better, it's probably more precise. But I can ask Mark to be sure. I should get to train with him next Sunday but I could also just text him.

 

[Archosaurus]

I'm not exactly the best in this, but when I had problems with my short forehand and wide balls, I worked on making the stroke and footwork be one.

So instead of thinking "move to the ball, do the stroke" I just did this "one-ness" of the footwork and stroke in one.

For example, when someone puts a long, fast serve into their backhand into the net and they attempted to return crosscourt to me, I'll already be in my backswing and pivoted by the time I notice it didn't go over. If someone counters a topspin into my forehand and I'm a bit out of position but it goes out, I'll still step into the ball and attempt to do the stroke at the same time, before noticing it's out.


I'm not suggesting to start doing the stroke as soon as your legs move, but I'm suggesting to get a habit of treating them as one instead of separate pieces. Then every time you do a stroke, you will invariable move your feet.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

I think that is all it really is. But with one of those coaches seeing when your feet are not in the right place and getting you to track the ball better and better, it's probably more precise. But I can ask Mark to be sure. I should get to train with him next Sunday but I could also just text him.

That would be really cool.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Here is Super Mark's answer:

"Yes. This coach who taught me this was amazing. This drill is amazing"

"Three points forehand just hitting"

"No missing get at least 50 on the table"

"Backhand forehand middle"

"Only flat hitting and getting the feet there"

"Amazing drill"

"Very good for basics I should have done that as a kid"

"So good for footwork"

That came in 8 separate messages. But that is it. What I had forgot about is that he told me they are doing it with just flat hitting to really focus on exact foot placement.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[Archosaurus]

Here is Super Mark's answer:

"Yes. This coach who taught me this was amazing. This drill is amazing"

"Three points forehand just hitting"

"No missing get at least 50 on the table"

"Backhand forehand middle"



Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

So, isn't this one of the "standard" drills that pros do?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

So, isn't this one of the "standard" drills that pros do?

Read it again. Deep space is still experiencing turbulence.

 

[Archosaurus]

Read it again. Deep space is still turbulence.

Forehand. Three points. No missing, so it's more controlled and slower than a fast multiball.

I've seen pros do this drill on video most of all drills, probably. Coaches usually feed with the multiball method, and do it slower.

Or is it something else?

 

[Ilia Minkin]

"Very good for basics I should have done that as a kid"

That is the real key!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Well, I can't expect Archo to understand, but at least Ilia got it.

The precision of the focus on correct placement of the feet is the difference. Before his injury Mark was probably over 2400. He had stopped going to college to train full time trying to get over 2600.

If you had seen him do multiball drills and then heard how he was talking about this, you would get that the emphasis on really being in exactly the right place was more focused than drills he had done before.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[ttmonster]

See if you can learn the drill and pass it on to us carl, its definitely going to be difficult to find somebody to feed it consistently

 

[Archosaurus]

We're talking about exactly the same thing. Essentially playing blocks/counters and attempting to always have a completely uniform stroke, at a slow pace. To do that, your feet need to be in the same position relative to the ball.

It's not like this was the absolute first drill that I ever did. Unless there's some mojo to it that I supposedly don't understand.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

I guess that it looks like this, except that Freitas can afford to play pretty tight topspins and still stay super consistent:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1066766556709267

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks NextLevel, I will try it out today when I play. My coach used to tell me the same thing, but the older technique has a very small optimal striking zone . What that means is that for anything that is wide backhand I need to move over to take it inside my body and I end up moving and tracking the ball and striking the ball simultaneously. How do I solve that issue ? Am I slow because of my knee issues or is it because my ball judgment is not up to the mark since its kind of a blind spot ? These are the questions I keep asking myself ? Let me know if you can shed some light with your own experience ..

In general, the secret to stroke stability in table tennis is always elbow positioning - what you are struggling with is probably a combination of having the elbow too close to the body and it causing you to reach forward for leverage and weakening your stroke overall. Elbow position always determines your sweet spot and how well you can stroke the ball, especially on the backhand - on the forehand, it is not as critical, but for my technique, it is also very important. In fact, the Chinese have been moving their elbows further outwards on the backhand to support stronger leverage from the elbow.

IF you watch this Henzell video, he talks about how after a lot of practice, you can hit the ball from anywhere using his technique but never really explains it. Away from the table, I think of the backhand more as a tennis stroke and less wristy but my wrist is always loose these days anyways. Note his elbow position - Henzell's backhand was his biggest weapon. So the bottom line is that if you want to be able to hit backhand loops from anywhere without thinking about, get the elbow positioning right and don't reach out for the ball.

 

[ttmonster]

Thanks Next Level, I will try to make some video of my backhand drill and post it here , hopefully it will add further insight ...

In general, the secret to stroke stability in table tennis is always elbow positioning - what you are struggling with is probably a combination of having the elbow too close to the body and it causing you to reach forward for leverage and weakening your stroke overall. Elbow position always determines your sweet spot and how well you can stroke the ball, especially on the backhand - on the forehand, it is not as critical, but for my technique, it is also very important. In fact, the Chinese have been moving their elbows further outwards on the backhand to support stronger leverage from the elbow.

IF you watch this Henzell video, he talks about how after a lot of practice, you can hit the ball from anywhere using his technique but never really explains it. Away from the table, I think of the backhand more as a tennis stroke and less wristy but my wrist is always loose these days anyways. Note his elbow position - Henzell's backhand was his biggest weapon. So the bottom line is that if you want to be able to hit backhand loops from anywhere without thinking about, get the elbow positioning right and don't reach out for the ball.

 

[izra]

I guess that it looks like this, except that Freitas can afford to play pretty tight topspins and still stay super consistent:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1066766556709267

no, this is something completely different. here the blocker is feeding freitas one ball to the middle and one to either the backhand or the forehand side where freitas doesn't know which it will be. with this exercise you practice your reaction, getting to the ball in time when not knowing where it's coming, making a solid attack and recovering for the next shot. it is both physically and psychologically demanding but the emphasis is neither on form nor precision. it is used to groove that killer instinct in situations when the opponent is putting pressure on you.

the drill that was described earlier (simple 3 forehand counters) puts emphasis on form and precision and improves stability and consistency in almost all areas of the game.

 

[thekleifheit13]

Simple drills make for a happy knife, seeing the one Carl is talking about would be interesting. Had myself an awesome practice yesterday where coach led me through a FH drill hitting loops from FH corner to BH corner. We finally got my dadgum arm to relax and not fight against itself and, lo and behold, more spin and about 800% more consistency. That drill also pointed out that my footwork is about as effective as a storm door in a hurricane or an ejector seat on a helicopter, but that's for next time and for shadow drills.

On the subject of backhand, the elbow position may explain why my rotator cuff and biceps tendon hurt when my form goes to hell in a handbasket. When my game's on I find myself focusing on taking my elbow to the ball, which gives room for my hand and racquet to gain more forward momentum before striking the ball. If I'm slapping the ball it's because my elbow is glued to my torso, resulting in me relying on my tiny little rear deltoid to generate power while I violently extend my arm. That arm extension leads to me bouncing off of my biceps tendon to keep from hyper extending my elbow. This is something to go in my "How to suck less when I'm suckin' real bad" notebook.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Essentially playing blocks/counters and attempting to always have a completely uniform stroke, at a slow pace.

Somehow I doubt it. I have seen Mark do tons of Multiball being fed by great coaches. If he is saying the focus on the precision of the footwork is different, I just have to take his word. Because the way he phrased it is like it is a night and day difference. And I am not so sure it was being done slow. Or, perhaps what slow is for a guy who is 2400 trying to get his technique up to 2600 is different from what slow is for most of us. But I never heard him say the word "slow" so you may be reading into it.

When I have done standard multiball footwork drills, the pace was a good pace to push my edge. But if I was an inch off in where my feet were and adjusted my body or my arm to take the stroke, the technique was not torn apart by the coach unless my technique began to break down as a result.

But it sounds like Mark is saying that the emphasis was on adjusting the feet to exactly the right place so that there is no a change in body or arm. When he described it to me it was entirely about learning to really track the ball with his feet instead of his arm.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I guess that it looks like this, except that Freitas can afford to play pretty tight topspins and still stay super consistent:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1066766556709267

Not sure because Mark said it was taking all the balls with just the FH.

My guess is that the real difference for Mark in this drill was the coach and his insistence on the feet and the spacing being perfect every time.

I've seen Mark do what sounds like the same drill except with loops at blistering speed. But, for whatever reason, the way the coach had him doing it was a game changer in terms of really working on tracking the ball with his feet.

But Freitas looks pretty good at tracking the ball with his feet already.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I'm not exactly the best in this, but when I had problems with my short forehand and wide balls, I worked on making the stroke and footwork be one.

So instead of thinking "move to the ball, do the stroke" I just did this "one-ness" of the footwork and stroke in one.

For example, when someone puts a long, fast serve into their backhand into the net and they attempted to return crosscourt to me, I'll already be in my backswing and pivoted by the time I notice it didn't go over. If someone counters a topspin into my forehand and I'm a bit out of position but it goes out, I'll still step into the ball and attempt to do the stroke at the same time, before noticing it's out.


I'm not suggesting to start doing the stroke as soon as your legs move, but I'm suggesting to get a habit of treating them as one instead of separate pieces. Then every time you do a stroke, you will invariable move your feet.

I've gotta be honest, reading this is pretty entertaining.

My understanding is that you actually want to move to the spot and have your planted and in place before you make your stroke so you can use your legs, hips and core rotation from the ground up. In fact, sometimes you make a few tiny steps to adjust and get just the right spot.

And there is the issue of coordinating the upper body and lower doing different things at the same time. Opposing actions. So it is full body coordination.

Archo, have you ever had a proper coach feed you multiball?