Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

Ah, that's very true. There's no way you can know specifically what's going on with my serve. Could be anything.

Well, let's put it like this then:

What is required to produce a heavy short backspin? How does it feel compared to a light short backspin?

What am I going to tell you that is better than what Brett put in his video on the backspin serve for TTEdge on his youtube channel? Brett also has a video on backspin vs no spin out there on his youtube channel - what am I going to tell you that he doesn't say there? All people can give is basic generic advice that does nothing unless they see you serve, then they can focus on the details.

Here is a 2300 level player posting video for people to analyze - how much video did he post? If you are saying this is just part 3, parts 1 and 2 are also online.

It is hard to learn TT online, but it is almost impossible if you are not willing to use video to get feedback. If not, you are better off just using the free stuff online and trying to see what you can get from it.

 

[Archosaurus]

@UpSideDownCarl

Yes, you're right. Sorry.

I just thought now: why the **** do I not post my floor serves? I have filmed many, many videos of floor serves, but I have never shown any. The technique should be about the same, no?

Here, a short floor serve video.

What's wrong, what's right? I don't know why I am suddenly doing that movement in the end: I did not film a re-take to try to take it away. However the spin looks the same as usual.

I tried different timings for the whip and points for the contact, but a lot of the difference is actually just because of my inconsistency. I did not intend to vary it so much. I can also see that my whip is pretty lousy: not too much acceleration in the first place.

I leave it to you.

 

[NextLevel]

Archo,

Ah, videotape. Good for you.

I have no clue why the angle opens up with the racket perpendicular to the floor at the follow through. This likely means that you are not brushing through the bottom front of the ball and are not getting really heavy backspin. But I can't see the quality of the ball on the floor so I can only speculate. MAybe your contact is early and the follow through it what it is.

The serve is more like a bed serve. On a floor serve, you want to launch the ball over a long distance while keeping the same form as your regular serve - it's a way of building up muscles/tendons to improve your serving strength. Bed and table serves are more touch oriented, while floor serves are more power oriented.

Watch Brett's video here:

 

[Archosaurus]

@NextLevel

Yeah, these are in a confined space, so they're probably more like bed serves.

I didn't think that maybe it's not too bad to follow through like that. I freeze-framed the video, and the contact happens before the opening of the angle, so it should not influence the serve?

I also noticed that I am indeed brushing the ball on the bottom-back, and not the bottom-front. I thought I was brushing the bottom more: definitely not in the front though.

Do you suggest that I brush the bottom more for a start? Do you think I should try to get rid of that follow through?

EDIT:

I tried to brush more along the bottom, and tried to keep the racket more horizontal and stable on the follow through.

Something interesting ensued. It's like I'm using the downwards movement to lower the trajectory: look how high these fly!

What's going on here? Am I hitting up into the ball?

 

[NextLevel]

@NextLevel

Yeah, these are in a confined space, so they're probably more like bed serves.

I didn't think that maybe it's not too bad to follow through like that. I freeze-framed the video, and the contact happens before the opening of the angle, so it should not influence the serve?

I also noticed that I am indeed brushing the ball on the bottom-back, and not the bottom-front. I thought I was brushing the bottom more: definitely not in the front though.

Do you suggest that I brush the bottom more for a start? Do you think I should try to get rid of that follow through?

Yes, try to get used to serving through up to the bottom front. The follow through is not bad for a table serve, but it is not good for a practice floor serve when you are really trying to practice loading the ball up. When you can do the bottom front naturally, all the other contact points become easier and then you can get good contrast even with regular backspin serves.

 

[Archosaurus]

@NextLevel

Alright, I will keep that in mind. I think I tend to bang slightly into the ball from the bottom-rear. Need to work on brushing the bottom. However I don't understand exactly what's going on when I do contact. I feel like something's going on that's taking away from the potentially good contact.

I posted another video, check the edited post above.

 

[Jirrex]

@UpSideDownCarl

Regarding the press that I made; I was thinking, since the wood doesn't flex (at least not optically), how much of an issue is the position of the lower bolts? I can imagine that if the material is flexing, it would be desirable to have these bolts as close to the racket as possible. But with no flex, pressure should be divided equally.

 

[NextLevel]

@NextLevel

Alright, I will keep that in mind. I think I tend to bang slightly into the ball from the bottom-rear. Need to work on brushing the bottom. However I don't understand exactly what's going on when I do contact. I feel like something's going on that's taking away from the potentially good contact.

I posted another video, check the edited post above.

Not just the bottom, the bottom FRONT. Almost tilt your paddle angle so that it faces the back wall slightly and not the front wall. Serve with that and see how much backspin you get without seriously trying. Then try to find the right balance with racket head speed and height.

One of the things my first serving coach told me was that the heaviest backspin was obtained by hitting the ball at the bottom front. It taught me a lot and I tell people all the time that if you hit the back of the ball first on almost any fast stroke, you won't get good spin because the ball will come off your paddle before you can get real action on it. So you have to make contact on some point on the ball that is not quite in line with where you want to hit the ball towards and then follow through towards where you want to hit the ball towards to get off center contact and spin.

IT's why many people can serve sidespin better than they serve backspin - they keep trying to hit the ball forward, rather than trying to brush the ball and let forward motion imparted by their stroke be as little as possible and for the racket speed to go mostly into spin. Obviously, too much spin and the ball won't go anywhere. Too much hit and the ball goes off, but you can reduce the hit by not trying to hit the ball forward. You want to rub the ball.

Over time, as you serve, you actually want to think of the ball as falling into your paddle as you do the whip motion through where the ball will land and it will shoot forward with spin purely on the basis of the down ward drop and your whip motion. THe grip of inverted is the key, not any attempt on your part to hit the ball forward.

How do you find the right balance? Lots of practice, sometimes even years of practice. There are still things I can make the ball do today that I couldn't make the ball do a month or two ago. You aren't going to find the right answer to how to make the ball spin low and short by philosophizing about it. Because even if you philosophize correctly, your muscles are not going to figure it out without lots of practice.

When I am coaching people to serve backspin, my biggest criticism is that they are not pushing the contact point risk aggressively enough because they are too concerned with making the ball go forward. Try to make the ball spin first - missing and whiffing 20 times is actually a good thing because it means you are trying. If you never whiff on serve practice, you aren't trying. OVer time, your brain will adjust. But if you settle for suboptimal outcomes, your brain will adapt to them because you are concerned with getting the ball on the table, not with trying to make your serve spinnier and spinnier. OF course, it won't get there overnight, but if you push the boundaries, when you serve a basic serve, the basic serve will have higher quality. It's like watching Brett film TTEdge errors - you can see that his technique is so good that he makes the errors look better than they deserve.

 

[NextLevel]

Your racket is probably not travelling fast enough which is why they are flying so high. You are also possibly hitting into the ball too hard. Serving low heavy backspin is like making a rock skim across a pond. You want the ball to travel fast and low trajectory enough to go in a straight line, but that will only happen if you have the right amount of racket acceleration combined with the correct contact point. The one thing I will say is set and maintain the angle.

 

[laistrogian]

Your racket is probably not travelling fast enough which is why they are flying so high. You are also possibly hitting into the ball too hard. Serving low heavy backspin is like making a rock skim across a pond. You want the ball to travel fast and low trajectory enough to go in a straight line, but that will only happen if you have the right amount of racket acceleration combined with the correct contact point. The one thing I will say is set and maintain the angle.

This really describes how a low backspin serve will feel like if you do it correctly. The serve should be a total brush, with the paddle angle as open as possible. Archo, watch Brett's serving video and you'll see that a good short serve doesn't use arm movement at all, it's all in the wrist. I don't really see you moving your wrist in the serve based on the finishing position.

Tossing the ball higher also helps giving momentum to the ball so you don't have to worry about giving the ball forward speed.

Also, sometimes just doing it with backhand serve is enough. While a forehand serve can produce more backspin done right, if you do it wrong you'll just produce poop serve

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

@UpSideDownCarl

Regarding the press that I made; I was thinking, since the wood doesn't flex (at least not optically), how much of an issue is the position of the lower bolts? I can imagine that if the material is flexing, it would be desirable to have these bolts as close to the racket as possible. But with no flex, pressure should be divided equally.

You may be right. It may not need that slot. But it would guarantee that the compression comes from closer to the edge of the blade. So, I say, it may still be worth it.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[baumschule]

A player from the 2. Bundesliga was at our club today. His USATT rating should be around 2600-2700 I think (his german TTR is around 2300).
He trained most of the time with his partner but I got to play with him during the end of the session for a bit. When he played full power I had obviously no chance but it was a lot of fun regardless. He gave me a few tips and answered all of my questions in a very polite and nice way. We also took a picture and I'll be sure to root for his team in the future.
Overall it was a very cool experience.

 

[Archosaurus]

@NextLevel

Thank you for the insight. I hadn't thought of it in some of the ways you expressed.

I think sometimes when I think I'm brushing the bottom front, I'm actually brushing the bottom. I will try more and take more video to get a better idea of what I'm really doing.

I'll also keep in mind the racket head speed and keeping the angle. I will miss and miss and miss until I get it.


I am indeed much better at serving sidespin than backspin. It feels like I can lightly brush the ball easier and still have it do what I want, while there is a bit of insecurity in the backspin. Your knowledge and experience is apparent when you say things like that.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Can you do me a favor and make a new video of you doing that ball bounce thing where the racket is angled so that the grab of the topsheet causes the ball to go straight up on both the horizontal toss and the vertical fall.

I want to see how you touch the ball when you do that. Practice it a lot. Then video it when you can really do it decently well.

I actually think that will help you with the precision of the contact. It looks to me like the blade face may be too unstable for a good precise brush contact and to pull past the ball. You are contacting the ball tangentially. But you are bumping into the ball not brushing past it. To me that looks like what is happening and why the ball goes up instead of forward.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[Archosaurus]

@UpSideDownCarl

That is what I think too. The contact feels unsure for lack of a better word. It's like a knob or a lever that sometimes moves less and sometimes more than what you want. In the video the contact and technique is a bit inconsistent, so there's that. If you noticed, the blade angle changes during the swing, but I am trying to keep it even.

I will practice some and then video. Right now I cannot, as I am past the limits of the time when I can make noise in the apartment, and trust me, the damn ball hitting the ground is like an explosion at this time of the night.

 

[NextLevel]

@UpSideDownCarl

That is what I think too. The contact feels unsure for lack of a better word. It's like a knob or a lever that sometimes moves less and sometimes more than what you want. In the video the contact and technique is a bit inconsistent, so there's that. If you noticed, the blade angle changes during the swing, but I am trying to keep it even.

I will practice some and then video. Right now I cannot, as I am past the limits of the time when I can make noise in the apartment, and trust me, the damn ball hitting the ground is like an explosion at this time of the night.

Try it in front of a mirror. Many people start out with their angle tilted, then they change it as they approach the ball and even with a mirror, you often do the same thing because you are so focused on hitting the ball you don't see what you do in the mirror. It's the same as my struggle with the elbow - you think you are doing it but you are not. But if you have the feedback and try intermediate tricks and visualization, your brain might make the corrections to get you to the promised land. But it is not trivial, and even after you have worked on it for a few months, and think you have it all solved, you might get someone come and tell you... you ain't doing it right buddy because this is missing. And then you have to go back to the hell again...

And then you will appreciate why we all shake our heads when we read your posts and those of the photographer as well.

 

[Archosaurus]

@NextLevel

I guess so. I will practice in front of a mirror until I can brush the ball well with my eyes closed on my death bed. I did some eyes-closed serves today, and the success rate was more than I imagined, but it needs to be better. I can't serve with my eyes.

What photographer are you talking about?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

It does not matter when you do video. Practice enough to get the touch of doing it well. When I see it I may have ideas to get you brush contact.

NextLevel has a good idea with the mirror. But do the racket movement without a ball in the mirror first.

I personally don't think you will be able to do the serve with the ball and do it well and see it in the mirror at the same time. I know I can't.

And DEFINITELY DON'T practice serving with your eyes closed. Sorry that is just a waste of time.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[TareqPhoto]

Well, it is really very important topic, the serve.

So, i was thinking about something in my head, but please don't take it as a joke or waste or whatever you think about, but just give your opinion on the serve thing i am gonna talk and not about what i will say if you keep believe i am a troll forever.

so what i was thinking about is, which serve is important or giving the most difficult time for opponent or the one that can give better points? Honestly when i look at let's say the top 3-4 players in the world i can see clearly in all or most of their games lately or since last year when i watch them that they are doing one or two kinds of serves, i don't see so many types of serves out there, and they managed to be on top because other things in addition to serves, but if the serves are very important then we don't i see them doing so many kinds of serves?

Also, which is better, to focus and train on one kind of serve? or practice on doing different serves? because if someone is say a slow learning, and taking time to practice one serve then he will waste long time on serve alone and he may not be good in other things in TT, and if he didn't practice good on serve to give time for other things he may taking long time to do that kind of serve good enough or properly, but at the end if he has to learn a serve then he should focus on one serve and don't try to practice on another sere even if it is another good helpful serve, what do you think?

Last thing, how can i know which serve is suiting me more? or which one that i feel i can learn it better or do it in no time or i don't have difficulties to do it in many games? i tried all or many types of serves, and almost 2 or 3 i can do it all the time but the others that you keep talking about i can't do it all the time successfully, maybe once every 10 times, and even if i keep practice on that serve until i master it or doing it good enough then what i should do in the main time in matches?

 

[Boogar]

Well, it is really very important topic, the serve.

So, i was thinking about something in my head, but please don't take it as a joke or waste or whatever you think about, but just give your opinion on the serve thing i am gonna talk and not about what i will say if you keep believe i am a troll forever.

so what i was thinking about is, which serve is important or giving the most difficult time for opponent or the one that can give better points? Honestly when i look at let's say the top 3-4 players in the world i can see clearly in all or most of their games lately or since last year when i watch them that they are doing one or two kinds of serves, i don't see so many types of serves out there, and they managed to be on top because other things in addition to serves, but if the serves are very important then we don't i see them doing so many kinds of serves?

Also, which is better, to focus and train on one kind of serve? or practice on doing different serves? because if someone is say a slow learning, and taking time to practice one serve then he will waste long time on serve alone and he may not be good in other things in TT, and if he didn't practice good on serve to give time for other things he may taking long time to do that kind of serve good enough or properly, but at the end if he has to learn a serve then he should focus on one serve and don't try to practice on another sere even if it is another good helpful serve, what do you think?

Last thing, how can i know which serve is suiting me more? or which one that i feel i can learn it better or do it in no time or i don't have difficulties to do it in many games? i tried all or many types of serves, and almost 2 or 3 i can do it all the time but the others that you keep talking about i can't do it all the time successfully, maybe once every 10 times, and even if i keep practice on that serve until i master it or doing it good enough then what i should do in the main time in matches?

I agree with you that having less different serves makes it easier for you to know all the kinds of balls that can come back from it. So you can prepare better for your third ball attack.
Then on the other hand pros have such deceptive serves that its very hard to distinguish those.
That you can only see them doing one or two serves speaks for their great deception.
The serve might look the same but pros have such amazing control over their serve that they can vary the amount of spin put on the ball from 0%,10%,20%...up to 100% with the same motion. And even put on different spins with different contact points of the swing.