Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Suga D]

@NextLevel

Based on what I've heard from you: it depends, and we will see.

I myself enjoy the aspect of physically bettering myself to perform better, and right now I'm not terribly concerned in ultimate equipment performance. This is however a beginner's view, I might get a different view as the years go on. No, I'm sure I will.

I think I will go for H3 Neo in a month or two to see how it feels if conditions permit, and then we see if I branch into non-tacky rubbers. I think I need to decide for myself based on my own experience what I stick to in the long run and that requires using more rubbers.

So, short term: Probably H3 Neo
Long term: Try out non-tacky and tensors

I wonder if that Tenergy offer is still up from @Suga D...

Certainly mate.
Actually it's just lying around collecting dust.... errr, almost.
Keeping it in a Ziploc-bag. The topsheet should still be quite okay...
Just send me pm whenever you feel like it.
Meanwhile you could pour on a few drops of oil onto your rubbers, if the wear becomes worse.

 

[Boogar]

Spot on, and this supposedly weak player won it all. I have played many matches as a blocker where players would complain about losing to a player like myself who supposedly had no strokes. It's one thing to say that when judging a player's technique but another thing to say that when judging a player's effectiveness.

Spot on as well! Those are the players i struggle with the most, no spin serves without pace and the ball comes at me very slow without spin... I absolutely hate it!However i want to learn to love it... i tried playing lots of different players. But i get frustrated playing them. And then i fall back into the pushing and passing back game. How can i do better against this?

One thing that seems to work is to hit more forward into the ball and not upwards, while still brushing it. But i have problems with actually hitting those slow balls... Today im going to try to focus on footwork on those balls.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yeah, @ Archo, one thing that a Euro/Jap rubber helps you develop is precision with how much to let the ball sink into the topsheet/sponge. Because the sponge is not as hard and is more elastic, and so is the topsheet, you can really play with different depths of contact far more easily.


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[NextLevel]

Spot on as well! Those are the players i struggle with the most, no spin serves without pace and the ball comes at me very slow without spin... I absolutely hate it!However i want to learn to love it... i tried playing lots of different players. But i get frustrated playing them. And then i fall back into the pushing and passing back game. How can i do better against this?

One thing that seems to work is to hit more forward into the ball and not upwards, while still brushing it. But i have problems with actually hitting those slow balls... Today im going to try to focus on footwork on those balls.

You learn to loop those balls. It is actually easier to kill a no spin ball than it is a topspin ball because the stroke is all yours, you just need to know in advance it is a no spin ball and have the right stroke for the job. The real issue is whether you are really generating or borrowing spin when you loop. Some people think they are looping but they are really hitting. When you know how to brush, then varying the amount of brush and the contact point on the ball is all you need to change to adjust to no spin ball.

In the beginning, you don't even have to kill the first one, which is a common mistake amongst lower players. You loop the first one slowly with arc and control, because most lower players will block and because you put enough spin on the first one, the second one will come back higher and with more spin unless your opponent is a super blocker, in which case he is much higher level than you think. Over time when playing such players, you will get better at identifying balls you know which you can kill without fuss but if you try to kill them all, you will be playing with too much risk.

That is why the pushing is not bad because sometimes you need to find the right ball to attack. If you look at my last tournament, the short girl I played is like that. She pushes with heavy backspin and sidespin a lot so you need to find the right ball to attack as her level is high enough to make good blocks if the ball is not good quality.

 

[Archosaurus]

@UpSideDownCarl

I did not think about it that way. That makes good sense. I will add it to my mental list of pros for soft sponge non-tacky.

How are non-tacky rubbers when blocking and pushing compared to tacky rubbers?

 

[ttmonster]

@Carl : My history is a little different , I started off with Mark V , that every aspiring Indian table tennis player / pretender starts off with ... then my first coach switched me to Tenergy 05 FH and FX BH . After I changed my coach , I continued using tenergy ( they were butterfly sponsored coaches ) , tried 64 etc but stuck to 05 on both sides till the plastic ball change. Then due to whatever reason, the ball or my technique worsening due to lack of practice, I could not produce spin on plastic ball, as much as I was used , and then switched to H8 . H8 has helped me a lot of in understanding touch, short game and some serves, Should I have tried out slower / softer european rubbers ? Just wondering, since using FX-P on the backhand has really helped out ... definitely much more than the 64 experiment that did not go so well ...

Yeah, @ Archo, one thing that a Euro/Jap rubber helps you develop is precision with how much to let the ball sink into the topsheet/sponge. Because the sponge is not as hard and is more elastic, and so is the topsheet, you can really play with different depths of contact far more easily.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

There is truth to this, but sometimes, high level junk balls don't come at you the same way lower level junk balls do. Lower level ones tend to look like good stroke but from a player who doesn't make consistently good contact with the ball if at all. So a better player like Boogar might read the ball as being heavier than it actually is and fail to make the right adjustments.

IT's all experience, but the mistake is to think that you are not playing well because you are not playing strokes against balls you haven't practiced reading. There is a whole process to trusting the way the ball comes off your paddle as the most accurate read of what is on the ball as well as learning to adapt your stroke to that read and it takes time to get there.

Exactly. Which is why it is worth training the skill in drills. The stuff SmashFan throws at me is priceless training because the junk is so varied that you just get used to reading it.

Another interesting way of practicing returning garbage is getting someone lower level to do flip practice. You serve, they have to flip. And you HAVE TO T-Off on their flip.

When someone is not good at flipping, the stuff that comes back when they are trying to flip is mostly weird balls.

But there really are many ways to practice vs random junk balls. And high level junk balls are good to practice against as well.

One time there was this tournament in this bar in my neighborhood. They used to have it one Wednesday a month.

The first time I went I played this Indian guy. He was hiding his level. I asked to see his racket. It was a Joyner-H and on one side he had Butterfly Super-Anti. I asked him about it. And he pretended that he did not know what Antispin was. He said something like: "I don't know what it means. Is it good? My friend gave it to me and told me, sometimes you use the black side to get a pop up."

Now, he was really trying his best not to look better than everyone else. And to make his wins look like the other guy just didn't play well. But every so often he'd get in a rally and you'd see him loop around the net or some crazy shot that nobody at this recreational player's tournament should be able to do.

The reason he was playing at this tournament was obvious. There was a $5.00 entry fee to the tournament. If you lost, you could by back in a few times into the loser's bracket. There was even a guy whose strategy was to lose quick and get into the loser's bracket knowing that the rest of his opponents, till he got out of the loser's, would not have lost on purpose. [emoji2]

In the end, after enough drunken fools had bought back in, a few times the tournament ended up with about a $400.00 pot that was "winner take all!"

This guy won a lot of money. Well, the next month, I brought a bunch of guys in the 1800-1900 range and one guy who was 2000+ to the tournament. All of them got spanked mercilessly by this guy who, as his opponents got better, his level magically seemed to go up.

Anyway, after that, we figured out that the guy had to be at least 2100-2200. So I got Philippe Dassonval and Dora Kurimay to show up to the tournament. This guy actually beat Philippe. Even though Philippe had beaten him in a sanctioned tournament a few weeks before.

So someone said something to Dora about misreading the junk balls off the Antispin. And she comfortable turned to my friend who said that and replied: "Well that shouldn't happen to me!"

She was right and she did trounce him. But we really got to see what this guy's actual level was. I think the score was -7, -5, & -3. But his forehand was still impressive and he was a fighter.

But Dora was right, his junk balls did nothing to her. The points he got, he earned the old fashioned way by simply being really good. I still remember this one rally in the last game, Dora crushed the Antispin junk return of serve and they had an FH to FH rally that went for at least 5 shots each. The guy only got 2 other points in the game, but he overpowered Dora FH to FH in that rally.

I still won't forget how she knew that the junk would not fool her. [emoji2]


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[NextLevel]

@Carl : My history is a little different , I started off with Mark V , that every aspiring Indian table tennis player / pretender starts off with ...

I know a 2200 Indian player, uses Mark V on a Gergely on his forehand... One of the spinniest forehands you will see. He didn't enjoy playing me last year so he didn't play me this year...

 

[Archosaurus]

I'm pretty sure I have gotten better at reading all kinds of balls after I started lobbing to much weaker players.

Sometimes I swear there is some spin on the ball, when there's none, and I have to read it off the ball, or sometimes the ball just flies in a strange direction and it feels like I'm playing against a much better player who has a lot of deception on all their strokes.
At the same time, I've got better at reading accidental pretty heavy spins from mis-hits, things like heavy sidespin that you get back from a weird high block against a loop. I would not read those balls as well without this practice, and I can remember throwing them off the table regularly until I started seeing what is on them and knowing what to do. That has given me A LOT more confidence in hitting into and over these balls hard to really punish them because I know what is on them.

It has also taught me to flex my knees and be ready to move well before they hit the ball, because like against a good player, you won't be entirely sure where it's going and what exactly it has on it.

Some guys where I play produce these really weird floppy backhands that look like they would have some kind of sidespin on them, but they're pure topspin. Sometimes they actually do produce some sidespin, but nowadays I can catch it. I remember the first time I hit into one of those and I had to adjust my racket at the last moments because I noticed it didn't have any sidespin on it: the ball was dead enough to somewhat see what direction it's spinning mid flight.

 

[RajaLoopah]

Just want to share my recent tournament video.

 

[ttmonster]

Yes , we have somebody here too, he was a state player in India , a lefty and has incredibly good forehands with the old style of play , blocking backhand and forehand loops ... ... but he was getting stuck with the off the bounce backhands of the kids and has now started working on his backhand ...

my question is , does tacky chinese rubbers help improve touch, or softer european rubbers, or its mostly the maturity of the player as a whole ?

I know a 2200 Indian player, uses Mark V on a Gergely on his forehand... One of the spinniest forehands you will see. He didn't enjoy playing me last year so he didn't play me this year...

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

@Carl : My history is a little different , I started off with Mark V , that every aspiring Indian table tennis player / pretender starts off with ... then my first coach switched me to Tenergy 05 FH and FX BH . After I changed my coach , I continued using tenergy ( they were butterfly sponsored coaches ) , tried 64 etc but stuck to 05 on both sides till the plastic ball change. Then due to whatever reason, the ball or my technique worsening due to lack of practice, I could not produce spin on plastic ball, as much as I was used , and then switched to H8 . H8 has helped me a lot of in understanding touch, short game and some serves, Should I have tried out slower / softer european rubbers ? Just wondering, since using FX-P on the backhand has really helped out ... definitely much more than the 64 experiment that did not go so well ...

Nope. You did the right thing. You just have to understand: your technique is already solid and you know how to make different kinds of contact. So the switch to H8 made perfect sense. More grab which is what you wanted. But YOU are not ARCHO whose only experience of a higher end rubber is an $8.00 729 rubber.

When I first started playing with the plastic ball I went: "Oh, NO! Tenergy sucks with the plastic ball!" The topsheet grabs differently with the celluloid than with the P-ball. Now I am used to that and I realize Tenergy is still great with the P-ball. The P-ball just needs different impact and contact depth. And I really loved those super light brush shots for certain short game returns. And with Tenergy you need to do them differently with the P-ball than with the C-ball.

You would have ultimately adjusted to Tenergy. But H8 sounds like it worked perfectly for you. No need to change if you like it.

For Archo on the other hand, there are different contact depths and ways of using the sponge with the topsheet for mechanical spin that he is unlikely to learn with 729, H3 or other Chinese tacky rubbers.

NextLevel's point about how H3 is an advanced rubber is worth understanding. A lower level player can use it and think they are fine because it has a lot of control. But they may be getting 2-10% of what the rubber can really do for you. Whereas, someone with well developed technique may be able to use it easily.

There have been a few players like 42&BP who handed me rackets with H3 on it and said, "oh, it has H3. It will be hard to adjust." I don't need more than 2 min to adjust to H3. My technique is way better than my overall level. [emoji2]

You, my friend, are fine with H8.


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[ttmonster]

Thanks @USDC , very reassuring

Nope. You did the right thing. You just have to understand: your technique is already solid and you know how to make different kinds of contact. So the switch to H8 made perfect sense. More grab which is what you wanted. But YOU are not ARCHO whose only experience of a higher end rubber is an $8.00 729 rubber.

When I first started playing with the plastic ball I went: "Oh, NO! Tenergy sucks with the plastic ball!" The topsheet grabs differently with the celluloid than with the P-ball. Now I am used to that and I realize Tenergy is still great with the P-ball. The P-ball just needs different impact and contact depth. And I really loved those super light brush shots for certain short game returns. And with Tenergy you need to do them differently with the P-ball than with the C-ball.

You would have ultimately adjusted to Tenergy. But H8 sounds like it worked perfectly for you. No need to change if you like it.

For Archo on the other hand, there are different contact depths and ways of using the sponge with the topsheet for mechanical spin that he is unlikely to learn with 729, H3 or other Chinese tacky rubbers.

NextLevel's point about how H3 is an advanced rubber is worth understanding. A lower level player can use it and think they are fine because it has a lot of control. But they may be getting 2-10% of what the rubber can really do for you. Whereas, someone with well developed technique may be able to use it easily.

There have been a few players like 42&BP who handed me rackets with H3 on it and said, "oh, it has H3. It will be hard to adjust." I don't need more than 2 min to adjust to H3. My technique is way better than my overall level. [emoji2]

You, my friend, are fine with H8.


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[Archosaurus]

@UpSideDownCarl

Interesting points about the contact depth. The way I could describe it is that I can feel the topsheet grabbing on very well especially on slow, thin shots, but the sponge is a brick. It doesn't feel like my rubber even has a sponge at times.

Maybe using a softer sponge rubber with no tack at all would help me feel the sponge more.

 

[ttmonster]

I don't know how to explain that to you, only thing I can say is you will know when you are able get that contact. You will literally feel the ball sink into the rubber and then coming out . I would keep serving under spin short to get accustomed to that "feeling" and then you can try to take the feeling to other shots ...

@UpSideDownCarl

Interesting points about the contact depth. The way I could describe it is that I can feel the topsheet grabbing on very well especially on slow, thin shots, but the sponge is a brick. It doesn't feel like my rubber even has a sponge at times.

Maybe using a softer sponge rubber with no tack at all would help me feel the sponge more.

 

[Archosaurus]

I don't know how to explain that to you, only thing I can say is you will know when you are able get that contact. You will literally feel the ball sink into the rubber and then coming out . I would keep serving under spin short to get accustomed to that "feeling" and then you can try to take the feeling to other shots ...

I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure if that's it exactly. It doesn't feel like a very deep impact, just slightly "grabbier" but in a more harsh way than the tack grab. My best loops I've ever produced had this feeling, and the common thing I can see is high racket speed and taking the ball lower and later. It's easier to produce against backspin or topspin than a dead ball, so I'm inclined to think it's spin production related.

I'm not sure if this is the same thing, so I won't start speculating about my shot quality. I'll just try to do it more.

 

[Garrison]

I just wondered why most pros use black rubber for forehand and red for backhand? When I was a kid I was told that red side FH would be normal so I stuck with it. Do you think it is preference or is there actually something to it? Like seeing the contact point better at the serve?

 

[RajaLoopah]

I just wondered why most pros use black rubber for forehand and red for backhand? When I was a kid I was told that red side FH would be normal so I stuck with it. Do you think it is preference or is there actually something to it? Like seeing the contact point better at the serve?

Nahhh just preference lol I am a black fh rubber user for years then decided to switch to red for a change haha. Plus red rubber on fh looks better for me

 

[Archosaurus]

The way I understand it is that blue sponge rubbers seem to mostly be black, and thus pros use them on their forehand because of the blue sponge, and it just happens to be black.

I do it because I wear a black shirt and it hides the contact better on serves, I think it looks better, and nowadays I use a harder sponge on the black side. I think if I had identical rubbers I would go black forehand out of habit.

 

[ttmonster]

Lot of things going on archo really , so lets break it down ....

1. Looping against or doing anything against no spin is basically challenging your technique and touch ... its just a reality check of what your level really is . Because you are getting nothing from the other end and you are supposed to do "everything with it" . So this is different . Your contact , touch and timing has to be spot on ... lets just say the ball does not grab onto your rubber on its own, you have to grab it ...

2. Looping against backspin is different , against topspin is different , again because the ball already has a bias either way and the options are multiple and easier just because there is already spin in the ball , you can either manipulate the spin , or create your own spin or a combination of both ...

now, coming to the original question on how to get the rubber deformation to produce more spin , if that is what you are after, the logical way to approach it would be cut out all external factors and just first learn technique and memorize it as "feeling" ... thats why I said, I would keep serving underspin short ... get the feeling .. and believe me you won't have too many questions or doubts once you get the "feeling" ... then comes the more arduous task of taking it to other situations and replicate the feeling ...

I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure if that's it exactly. It doesn't feel like a very deep impact, just slightly "grabbier" but in a more harsh way than the tack grab. My best loops I've ever produced had this feeling, and the common thing I can see is high racket speed and taking the ball lower and later. It's easier to produce against backspin or topspin than a dead ball, so I'm inclined to think it's spin production related.

I'm not sure if this is the same thing, so I won't start speculating about my shot quality. I'll just try to do it more.