Changing from Penhold to Shakehand

[Pricey 11]

Hi ttmonster

Thanks for the feedback [emoji3]

Yes I completley agree with formal coach training I'm lucky enough to have access to a coach every week who used to be ranked in the top 20 in England and I feel without him my level would be far lower. We do backhand exercises and footwork exercises as we both agreed that now I play shakehand the position of my feet is more crucial on the BH than with a Trad penhold backhand.

I play my backhand how you described (all wrist close to the table then add forearm when stepping away) my issue is doing that without thinking during a rally and I can only imagine that comes with practice.

Biggest thing now is EJ bug hit me hard now I've changed to SH viscaria is perfect blade so I will stick with that until it breaks but I'm iffy with the Xiom Vega Europe DF so I'm debating to change to T05FX and stick with that for 1 year and then maybe upgrade the FH to T05.

Carl,

I agree with your point you definetly cant take anything away from the retired penholders (Malin & Wang hao) and whag they have achieved but I can't see anyone with that promise coming through the chinese youth, Yes there are a couple of good one's but they are missing something which could be down to a numerous of things (penhold coachs have changed, Focusing too much on playing like a SH player and not improving the advantages of a penholder) Hopefully penhold won't vanish of the international stage but something in the back of my mind tells me otherwise [emoji17]


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[ttmonster]

You are welcome Pricey !
If I were you I would use a "true" rubber like Karis M when building a new stroke, none of the catapult stuff . I believe it really helps if the ball does exactly its supposed to do based on your stroke instead of using something that adds a little brain of its own. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Tenergy 05 on my backhand , I have tried Xiom Omega Pro V , Evolution MX-P , Karis M , but I would build my stroke with Karis M and then switchover to Tenergy 05 if the need be.

One thing to remember is there are two distinct philosophy with SH backhand as well , one where people try to become two winged looper where they try to punch on both sides , whereas the one where the SH backhand is more used for "jab" . Both has its own merits and demerits . But I would start out with the Jab and then develop the punch on that side . Since you are starting from a Penhold background there will also be the additional overhead of decision making on whether to loop/block/punch and so on ... that you don't have with penhold.

Hi ttmonster

Thanks for the feedback [emoji3]

Yes I completley agree with formal coach training I'm lucky enough to have access to a coach every week who used to be ranked in the top 20 in England and I feel without him my level would be far lower. We do backhand exercises and footwork exercises as we both agreed that now I play shakehand the position of my feet is more crucial on the BH than with a Trad penhold backhand.

I play my backhand how you described (all wrist close to the table then add forearm when stepping away) my issue is doing that without thinking during a rally and I can only imagine that comes with practice.

Biggest thing now is EJ bug hit me hard now I've changed to SH viscaria is perfect blade so I will stick with that until it breaks but I'm iffy with the Xiom Vega Europe DF so I'm debating to change to T05FX and stick with that for 1 year and then maybe upgrade the FH to T05.

Carl,

I agree with your point you definetly cant take anything away from the retired penholders (Malin & Wang hao) and whag they have achieved but I can't see anyone with that promise coming through the chinese youth, Yes there are a couple of good one's but they are missing something which could be down to a numerous of things (penhold coachs have changed, Focusing too much on playing like a SH player and not improving the advantages of a penholder) Hopefully penhold won't vanish of the international stage but something in the back of my mind tells me otherwise [emoji17]


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[OldschoolPenholder]

The issue you have mentioned about backhand is an issue that I am trying to overcome now and my level is probably around 16-1700 USATT ...

Forgive my thread hijacking...

THAT's IT ttmonster! It's on, 9 points please!!!!!!!!!

MUHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[ttmonster]

Lets go by the levels we ourselves have claimed ... you claim your level is 12-1400 , I claim mine is 16-1700 , I would not force Carl/NL/Der_Echte to take a position because , even then the handicap with a 200 point differential is not 9 points ....
AHAHAHAHAHUM !

... for future references please read ... http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49535&title=handicap-formula-for-11-points

Forgive my thread hijacking...

THAT's IT ttmonster! It's on, 9 points please!!!!!!!!!

MUHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Well I think the world becomes a little less interesting every time I hear about someone going from penhold to shakehand.

I can't blame you. I thought about the switch. But one thing that struck me that I didn't see coming was how sad I felt playing shakehand and missing penhold. To put it simply, it wasn't what I loved about the game.

Thanks suds!

ttmonster,

suds said it more eloquently than i would've. I've come to realize i'm older and slower and may have to switch to SH at some point if my Ego can't take losing ... BUT what i love about tt is PH style.

However, I AM having fun playing SH once in awhile. One of my friends at the club, K, has been helping me in both my PH and SH game. So who knows what my future holds?

 

[ttmonster]

I understand your bag of tricks is considerably reduced , especially those sneaky change of pace on the blocks and the options on return of serve, but then you also need to protect your body ... there is another way to look at it .... you could have fun longer and who knows if you are able to improve your level you might get other higher level players interested ...

Thanks suds!

ttmonster,

suds said it more eloquently than i would've. I've come to realize i'm older and slower and may have to switch to SH at some point if my Ego can't take losing ... BUT what i love about tt is PH style.

However, I AM having fun playing SH once in awhile. One of my friends at the club, K, has been helping me in both my PH and SH game. So who knows what my future holds?

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

*puts hands over ears and hums loudly*

I can't hear you ttmonster! It's ok, we stick by 9 points ;-)

LOl -- seriously, I will read that thread a bit later.

As always, thank you ttmonster!

Lets go by the levels we ourselves have claimed ... you claim your level is 12-1400 , I claim mine is 16-1700 , I would not force Carl/NL/Der_Echte to take a position because , even then the handicap with a 200 point differential is not 9 points ....
AHAHAHAHAHUM !

... for future references please read ... http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49535&title=handicap-formula-for-11-points

 

[ttmonster]

funny story on the hijacked topic , and my memory might be wrong , when I played league for the first time around 4-5 year back, we had a handicap league going on , I had to play Kanak Jha , who had to give me 7 points handicap , I think even then I could get 2-3 points max off him in the entire match

*puts hands over ears and hums loudly*

I can't hear you ttmonster! It's ok, we stick by 9 points ;-)

LOl -- seriously, I will read that thread a bit later.

As always, thank you ttmonster!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

I understand your bag of tricks is considerably reduced , especially those sneaky change of pace on the blocks and the options on return of serve, but then you also need to protect your body ... there is another way to look at it .... you could have fun longer and who knows if you are able to improve your level you might get other higher level players interested ...

Great point on protecting body - we will always agree on this.

Bag of tricks? I don't think i learned these *whistles half-innocently*

Having fun longer -- agree again.

Improving level - i gave up formal competition ages ago. it's not a huge factor for me to go up any amount of levels vs having fun while exercising and playing consistently... irks me that after about 2 yrs back in the game, i'm still inconsistent.

You will be the first on here I'll tell if I officially go to SH At the club, it will be K.

 

[Christian Adrian Aniceta]

Switching from cpen to sh is also one of my concerns...
I wish to play cpen with Zhang Jike's style (blocking, loop, flicking.. etch.)
Is it weird to play penhold while the player you want to follow is a sh player?
thank you for your advice

 

[ttmonster]

My two cents watching international games not a PH -r so this is kind of like Archo giving advise to 2000 + players , of course the level and difficulty is altogether miles apart, I don't think its easily possible to replicate ZJK's game the traditional PH grip. We have seen Xu Xin , and before that Ma Lin , Xu Xin has taken this a little further but still not at that level and I understand even Xu Xin grip is somewhere in the middle of a traditional PH grip and and out and out RPB oriented grip. The only one we have seen with similar style as ZJK was Wang Hao and in this generation to a lesser extent Won Chung Ting ( not sure if I got the spelling right ) , but my understanding is their grips are different compared to Xu Xin . They use a more RPB oriented grip and thats why you see that they don't even serve traditional PH serves and use more hook serves , even the regular Pendulum serve is different . I believe Wang Hao very rarely used Traditional PH block to reduce the number of options when making a decision on the backhand , using the traditional block only when he is getting attacked mid-distance from the table ... so there is a fundamental difference in the grip to play a BH oriented game in PH style ...

case in point... look carefully at the grip of this player in the video

he has 2-3 fingers on the backhand side and his pendulum serves are like WH's .... a very RPB oriented grip ... not the traditional PH grip where there is only the knuckle of the middle finger supporting on the BH side ...

Switching from cpen to sh is also one of my concerns...
I wish to play cpen with Zhang Jike's style (blocking, loop, flicking.. etch.)
Is it weird to play penhold while the player you want to follow is a sh player?
thank you for your advice

 

[Dominikk85]

Switching from cpen to sh is also one of my concerns...
I wish to play cpen with Zhang Jike's style (blocking, loop, flicking.. etch.)
Is it weird to play penhold while the player you want to follow is a sh player?
thank you for your advice

Wouldn't that style be Wang Hao?

 

[Pricey 11]

ttmonster

See I've heard good things about the Nexy Karis Series however it seems abit tricky to get it over here in the UK and the places that do sell it (ebay) are like £49 per sheet inc p&p is that the standard price over by you? As I can get tenergy cheaper than that.

Yes I'm using the backhand jab I find it alot more difficult than the loop though as coming from a penhold point of view its a very open angle shot were as with the SH I have to adjust my angle depending on spin. I've looked at some videos of people playing SH and when they are doing a backhand block their thumb becomes more horizontal I presume to keep the bat stable. Is this a good technique?


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[ttmonster]

Hi Pricey, there are videos where NextLevel has explained this backhand technique . Its visible in international match videos of most CNT players and even some other international players like Timo using this technique where they change from a neutral/forehand oriented grip do a completely backhand oriented grip during game play , I am sure its possible to do , the catch is it should happen unconsicously / subconsciously during game play . Timo even slides the forefinger up the paddle during forehand pushes , some pressure technique attributed so some other person ... I can't remember exactly right now.

Being more of a recreational player my approach has been to use a more neutral grip and focusing on pinching the paddle , telling myself that during forehand the forefinger should be pressing against the rubber more and during backhand the thumb , and if the grip changes let it change by itself without being conscious of it , just seemed easier to follow this route since my table time is limited ...

ttmonster

See I've heard good things about the Nexy Karis Series however it seems abit tricky to get it over here in the UK and the places that do sell it (ebay) are like £49 per sheet inc p&p is that the standard price over by you? As I can get tenergy cheaper than that.

Yes I'm using the backhand jab I find it alot more difficult than the loop though as coming from a penhold point of view its a very open angle shot were as with the SH I have to adjust my angle depending on spin. I've looked at some videos of people playing SH and when they are doing a backhand block their thumb becomes more horizontal I presume to keep the bat stable. Is this a good technique?


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[Christian Adrian Aniceta]

Wouldn't that style be Wang Hao?

yeah... but I do love to follow how Zhang Jike generates power on his fh with his legs..
and his blocking too which can be different from WH

 

[suds79]

he has 2-3 fingers on the backhand side and his pendulum serves are like WH's .... a very RPB oriented grip ... not the traditional PH grip where there is only the knuckle of the middle finger supporting on the BH side ...

Granted I'll give you that her haircut & thin frame doesn't exactly give it away so it's easy to miss but Sun Chen is a female.

We'll just call it a typo.

I love her game though. Her RPB is nice and her SP FH has a ton of power when she goes for it.

 

[ttmonster]

Apologies for a genuine mistake to all lady table tennis daily members out there

Granted I'll give you that her haircut & thin frame doesn't exactly give it away so it's easy to miss but Sun Chen is a female.

We'll just call it a typo.

I love her game though. Her RPB is nice and her SP FH has a ton of power when she goes for it.

 

[NextLevel]

Pricey, the backhand loop is my favorite stroke and is a stroke I understand comprehensively. In fact, once of the things I have realised as I have become more advanced is that it is possible to have very similar forehand and backhand motions and in fact , one of the reasons my backhand is good is that I have always tried to make it like a forehand.

The main reason I would have advised you to switch to shake hands is that it would improve your RPB. As you build in the muscles and instincts for shake hands backhand , your RPB will follow. The thing about RPB is that it is not a wristy stroke and this is what messes people up. In general, people get messed up by the concept of wristy strokes (I know from experience). There are no wristy strokes. There are swings with whip mechanics. All you need to do is to find a circular one that you can use over a short and a larger distance. Shorter distance implies elbow. Larger distance implies core or shoulder. Wrist and fingers are the last tools for racket angle control and acceleration.

You can construct your own stroke almost from scratch if you want to. What gets people in trouble in my view is that they refuse to miss deliberately with the stroke. I tell my students all the time that you need to learn to miss with your stroke so that when you see the misses, your brain can figure out what adjustments are needed to control the ball. Trying to put the ball on the table all the time locks your brain into trajectories that it cannot adapt to the ball if you practice against one ball most of the time.

You are advanced player so your issues may be more complex but I find that the more properties try to mess around with RPB while keeping the basic principles of ball control and stroke mechanics in mind, the better they get at it. I think that shake hands will expand that understanding and make your RPB better over time.

 

[NextLevel]

Hi Pricey, there are videos where NextLevel has explained this backhand technique . Its visible in international match videos of most CNT players and even some other international players like Timo using this technique where they change from a neutral/forehand oriented grip do a completely backhand oriented grip during game play , I am sure its possible to do , the catch is it should happen unconsicously / subconsciously during game play . Timo even slides the forefinger up the paddle during forehand pushes , some pressure technique attributed so some other person ... I can't remember exactly right now.

Being more of a recreational player my approach has been to use a more neutral grip and focusing on pinching the paddle , telling myself that during forehand the forefinger should be pressing against the rubber more and during backhand the thumb , and if the grip changes let it change by itself without being conscious of it , just seemed easier to follow this route since my table time is limited ...

I almost never grip switch. The only thing I do is cock my wrist back slightly on all backhand strokes. However, my finger and thumb need to be on the blade face and doing most of the grip work with the middle finger as a supporter so I can make all angle adjustments with this grip. I will make a video on this sometime as I find that neutral grip play is very underrated and often recommended without really explaining what is really neutral.

Some grip switches are also not that hard to do, but some like Dima are simply amazing.

 

[Pricey 11]

Pricey, the backhand loop is my favorite stroke and is a stroke I understand comprehensively. In fact, once of the things I have realised as I have become more advanced is that it is possible to have very similar forehand and backhand motions and in fact , one of the reasons my backhand is good is that I have always tried to make it like a forehand.

The main reason I would have advised you to switch to shake hands is that it would improve your RPB. As you build in the muscles and instincts for shake hands backhand , your RPB will follow. The thing about RPB is that it is not a wristy stroke and this is what messes people up. In general, people get messed up by the concept of wristy strokes (I know from experience). There are no wristy strokes. There are swings with whip mechanics. All you need to do is to find a circular one that you can use over a short and a larger distance. Shorter distance implies elbow. Larger distance implies core or shoulder. Wrist and fingers are the last tools for racket angle control and acceleration.

You can construct your own stroke almost from scratch if you want to. What gets people in trouble in my view is that they refuse to miss deliberately with the stroke. I tell my students all the time that you need to learn to miss with your stroke so that when you see the misses, your brain can figure out what adjustments are needed to control the ball. Trying to put the ball on the table all the time locks your brain into trajectories that it cannot adapt to the ball if you practice against one ball most of the time.

You are advanced player so your issues may be more complex but I find that the more properties try to mess around with RPB while keeping the basic principles of ball control and stroke mechanics in mind, the better they get at it. I think that shake hands will expand that understanding and make your RPB better over time.

I completley agree with you NL. As I used to practice RPB the shakehand backhand felt natural and not uncomfortable.

What I have noticed about playing shakehand is I move alot better and freely I think it's because I'm not worrying about covering my backhand much so I'm getting some quality wide forehands back which I wasn't before.

My stroke just needs fine tuning and I hope that in a year I will be as effective on my BH as I am on my FH. I have completley changed my training and also increased it from 3 x per week to 4 and focusing on 70% drills (mainly footwork and transitioning from FH to BH) and 20% serve practice and 10% matches which is working well.


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