World Table Tennis Championships 2019

RidTheKid · Apr 29, 2019

Do SYS and WMY understand English?

usualsuspect · Apr 29, 2019

Michal_Z said:
Thank you for correcting me
I had a suspicion I could be wrong, thats why I wrote correct me if I am wrong, hehe..
Still he could add 2 more this time..

On the same topic, I'm pretty sure Timo and Ma Long were MD partners in 2017 WTTC, and they got silvers. I think they lost to XX and FZD in the final. So Timo has more than one WTTC medal. Maybe there are more that we didn't think of.

tropical · Apr 29, 2019

RidTheKid said:
I'm talking about Chinese table tennis as a whole, not this isolated incident. Sportsmanship i extremely important, but it obviously seems like it's difficult to enforce when players disbehave.

I didn't necessarily direct my response to you, there are others who only pop up to this forum to write how disappointed they are in Chinese players winning their matches. "China won again, the world is ending! Can someone stop this nightmare!"

Like my flag state, I'm from Sweden.

Ok I understand. I am against such attitude as well. I was enjoying this tournament very much until the WD final and this little accident destroyed the mood. The debate/argument will continue when one tries to defend the umpire and the Chinese pair. I got a sinking feeling when I saw the umpire. She definitely looked too Chinese to be a fair umpire in this particular match.

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yoass · Apr 29, 2019

Vlad Celler said:
WMY and SYS are great players ....And maybe they would have won the final without resorting to fraud ....

They might have been great players. And yes, they might have won that final fair and square. But they chose another path. So they aren't, and they didn't. Instead of gold, they are just bringing back shame and dishonour home.

usualsuspect · Apr 29, 2019

Vlad Celler said:
China has had and has many great table tennis players ....
WMY and SYS are great players ....And maybe they would have won the final without resorting to fraud ....
But, unfortunately (for them first of all) - they were not fair in this episode .....
They know it themselves ... And they know the true price of their gold medals ....

We all want fair games. Unfortunately, bad calls can happen. Just because an umpire or a player made a bad call/argument for a point, it doesn't mean they intentionally cheated.
I do take comfort in knowing that 99.9% of the points played are fair. And I can live with the 0.1% of time when bad calls happen. Nothing is perfect, so a little imperfection shouldn't ruin our love for this sport.

Vlad Celler · Apr 29, 2019

yoass said:
They might have been great players. And yes, they might have won that final fair and square. But they chose another path. So they aren't, and they didn't. Instead of gold, they are just bringing back shame and dishonour home.

They might have been great players. And yes, they might have won that final fair and square. But they chose another path. So they aren't, and they didn't.
They will long be reminded of these medals, obtained by deception

Vlad Celler · Apr 29, 2019

RidTheKid said:
Do SYS and WMY understand English?

What prevented them from telling the judge, even on Mandarin, the truth - that there was no network and that the Japanese honestly won this ball?

tropical · Apr 29, 2019

usualsuspect said:
We all want fair games. Unfortunately, bad calls can happen. Just because an umpire or a player made a bad call/argument for a point, it doesn't mean they intentionally cheated.
I do take comfort in knowing that 99.9% of the points played are fair. And I can live with the 0.1% of time when bad calls happen. Nothing is perfect, so a little imperfection shouldn't ruin our love for this sport.

Deep inside SYS's heart she knew she lied to the umpire. Deep inside the umpire's heart she knew she lied, too.

Both of them will not sleep well for the rest of their lives ha ha ...

NextLevel · Apr 29, 2019

usualsuspect said:
On the same topic, I'm pretty sure Timo and Ma Long were MD partners in 2017 WTTC, and they got silvers. I think they lost to XX and FZD in the final. So Timo has more than one WTTC medal. Maybe there are more that we didn't think of.

No. They didn't get silvers. Their low seeding meant they met Xu Xin and Zhang Jike too early in the draw.

Timo has one WTTC bronze, Dima had one Olympics bronze when it comes to singles. They have teams Olympic and WTTTC medals but nothing in doubles at WTTC.

Janard · Apr 29, 2019

NextLevel said:
I know racism and nationalism are not good buzz words, but the point is that the umpire was communicating with the players in Mandarin not English according to Ito. Hope that makes it clear how it comes an issue. If both teams spoke good Chinese, it might have been less of an issue.

To make it clear, I don't use racism lightly or as a buzzword. I wrote that because the article referenced, which could have contained inaccuracies because it was translated into Chinese from Japanese, explicitly stated that the JNT questioned the impartiality of the umpire because she speaks Mandarin AND is of Chinese descent (含有中国血统). I understand Ito's (or at least the way it was translated) concern about having an umpire who is conversant in a language that is understood by only one party, especially if it's not on the aggrieved's side. If her suggestion was purely to have an umpire that speaks the tongue comprehensible by both sides for future matches, I think that's a fantastic recourse but why bring in the part about the Malaysian national being of Chinese ethnicity? You can be of any race to speak a language, period. In so doing, they are suggesting that there is some sort of primordial affinity which is why the umpire sided with the Chinese players when, for all we know, said umpire was born and raised in Malaysia her whole life. Are there similarities between Malaysian-Chinese and China-Chinese? Definitely, but to use that as justification for appeal shows just how shallow their understanding of identity politics is. I'm completely for installing hawk-eye and think that the JNT is absolutely right in pressing for an appeal or at least file a protest, but bringing in race (which is clearly how they are viewing it instead of through the lens of ethnicity) for absolutely no reason is not okay. And this is all I'm gonna say about this. I just wish this is a case of terrible translations from Japanese to Chinese and English. Peace.

yoass · Apr 29, 2019

ttmonster said:
ITTF should have a guideline where ...

I agree very much, but would like to point out one thing. The `social contract' under which we all just don't go to each other's throats immediately is based, eventually, in one tenet: that the actors living under its protection act in good faith, if only for strictly selfish reasons of self-preservation.

No contract, no guidelines, no sets of rules, can mitigate bad faith actions. It is up to `society' to cast out such bad faith actors.

Vlad Celler · Apr 29, 2019

It is hard to believe that Miki Baba or Mima Ito could afford such hints ....
I would rather believe in the inaccuracy of the translation .....

NextLevel · Apr 29, 2019

Janard said:
To make it clear, I don't use racism lightly or as a buzzword. I wrote that because the article referenced, which could have contained inaccuracies because it was translated into Chinese from Japanese, explicitly stated that the JNT questioned the impartiality of the umpire because she speaks Mandarin AND is of Chinese descent (含有中国血统). I understand Ito's (or at least the way it was translated) concern about having an umpire who is conversant in a language that is understood by only one party, especially if it's not on the aggrieved's side. If her suggestion was purely to have an umpire that speaks the tongue comprehensible by both sides for future matches, I think that's a fantastic recourse but why bring in the part about the Malaysian national being of Chinese ethnicity? You can be of any race to speak a language, period. In so doing, they are suggesting that there is some sort of primordial affinity which is why the umpire sided with the Chinese players when, for all we know, said umpire was born and raised in Malaysia her whole life. Are there similarities between Malaysian-Chinese and China-Chinese? Definitely, but to use that as justification for appeal shows just how shallow their understanding of identity politics is. I'm completely for installing hawk-eye and think that the JNT is absolutely right in pressing for an appeal or at least file a protest, but bringing in race (which is clearly how they are viewing it instead of through the lens of ethnicity) for absolutely no reason is not okay. And this is all I'm gonna say about this. I just wish this is a case of terrible translations from Japanese to Chinese and English. Peace.

So if the Japanese had said that the umpire was friendly with the Chinese players but not friendly with the Japanese players, you would have preferred it? Or if they said the umpire had lunch with the Chinese players, that would have been better? Ethnic heritage is what is getting you offended?

I know it is not politically correct to bring up ethnic heritage as a reason why someone may not be impartial. But there are reasons why many sports consider such things very carefully when determining who will handle an international match. And by using a language without retranslating or communicating with the other side for open communication, it caused a problem that the ITTF should be aware of. You may not like the translation and you can find reasons why it has issues, but I come from a part of the world where people try to transcend ethnic heritage but realize it is a very big deal in understanding how people behave. Sometimes, if you do not acknowledge what people do, you will never be able to deal with it.

In any case, the issue has been made clear and hopefully ITTF has a reasonable solution. Because communicating with a player in one language that the other player cannot understand is not trivial when something is being disputed unless you are giving translations.

The best solution is to take the judgment to video review. So no one has to deal with human bias, which is inevitable.

usualsuspect · Apr 29, 2019

NextLevel said:
No. They didn't get silvers. Their low seeding meant they met Xu Xin and Zhang Jike too early in the draw.
Timo has one WTTC bronze, Dima had one Olympics bronze when it comes to singles. They have teams Olympic and WTTTC medals but nothing in doubles at WTTC.

Ahh... Ok, thanks for the correction. My bad. It was a great match though, that's why I thought it was the final.

drunix80 · Apr 29, 2019

And it is really sad that instead of coming up with an official explanation , ITTF is posting this video with the caption "let service or not" ? ITTF has surely hit rock bottom with this.

ttmonster · Apr 29, 2019

Well in this case the society is being represented by ITTF leadership , so no hope ... lets just accept that this can happen and instead celebrate Mima Ito and Hina Hayata as the true winners , they could have easily stopped playing in protest but they did not ... I really hope that CNT takes disciplinary action , not harsh , but exemplary enough to ensure that this kind of behavior is not condoned ... believe me you guys , the best position to tell whether a serve is let or not is actually where SYS was standing ( receiver's position ) when it all transpired ... what I understand from my limited interactions with my Chinese friends is that saving face is a big thing in chinese culture .. hopefully LGL acknowledges that the image of CNT has a hard but fair playing team is more important than a gold medal in Women's doubles ...

Even though we like to call it so , there is a subtle difference between War and Sports. We say "everything is fair in war and love" and don't say "everything is fair in sports" ... by definition Sports is a pursuit where you compete fairly ... if you cannot then you are disgrace to the sport ... the subtle challenge in any sporting endeavor is to exceed yourself without losing your head about winning

yoass said:
I agree very much, but would like to point out one thing. The `social contract' under which we all just don't go to each other's throats immediately is based, eventually, in one tenet: that the actors living under its protection act in good faith, if only for strictly selfish reasons of self-preservation.

No contract, no guidelines, no sets of rules, can mitigate bad faith actions. It is up to `society' to cast out such bad faith actors.

zeio · Apr 29, 2019

drunix80 said:
And it is really sad that instead of coming up with an official explanation , ITTF is posting this video with the caption "let service or not" ? ITTF has surely hit rock bottom with this.

Hey, gotta capitalize on the buzz.

drunix80 · Apr 29, 2019

Meanwhile it seems this is the first time Xiao Zhan was coaching in WTTC finals. Either way he looked like an outright villain.I used to adore him when he was ZJK's coach but the episode with LSW really took out my respect for him.

RidTheKid · Apr 29, 2019

Has any word come out of the CNT camp regarding this incident?

drunix80 said:
And it is really sad that instead of coming up with an official explanation , ITTF is posting this video with the caption "let service or not" ? ITTF has surely hit rock bottom with this.

tropical · Apr 29, 2019

ttmonster said:
Well in this case the society is being represented by ITTF leadership , so no hope ... lets just accept that this can happen and instead celebrate Mima Ito and Hina Hayata as the true winners , they could have easily stopped playing in protest but they did not ... I really hope that CNT takes disciplinary action , not harsh , but exemplary enough to ensure that this kind of behavior is not condoned ... believe me you guys , the best position to tell whether a serve is let or not is actually where SYS was standing ( receiver's position ) when it all transpired ... what I understand from my limited interactions with my Chinese friends is that saving face is a big thing in chinese culture .. hopefully LGL acknowledges that the image of CNT has a hard but fair playing team is more important than a gold medal in Women's doubles ...

Even though we like to call it so , there is a subtle difference between War and Sports. We say "everything is fair in war and love" and don't say "everything is fair in sports" ... by definition Sports is a pursuit where you compete fairly ... if you cannot then you are disgrace to the sport ... the subtle challenge in any sporting endeavor is to exceed yourself without losing your head about winning

Well said TT... This is why we do not allow drug in sport. Otherwise people will cheat, cheat, and cheat .. Remember Armstrong?

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