Is ma long the GOAT ?

[RidTheKid]

You shouldn't need that since you've been here for ages, if you find this thread uninteresting ignore it.

Derail the thread?

OK, send me your "Thread Derail Request Form" in triplicate and I will see if the Goon Squad has any commitments presently.

 

[zeio]

Okay on this point , find me a true democracy, first of all Trump won because of gerrymandering and electoral college ... second there is no true democracy as long as the stakes are high enough ... every vote is influenced by external factors ...the literal meaning of the word democracy is power/rule of the people ... show me a country where this is true ... so like every other system this is also not foolproof ... just saying in this vote malongfamilyfanclub might decide to give away Ma Long signed balls if you vote for Ma Long and even though I was sitting on the fence on who is the GOAT I would vote for Ma Long because I don't care who wins the vote ...

... but I do second @UpSideDownCarl 's nomination of @Der_Echte as the GOAT

Switzerland in Europe and Taiwan in Asia? They're the closest one can get when it comes to direct democracy, as opposed to representative democracy, that is the US of A.

https://qz.com/1032154/america-is-not-a-true-democracy-but-it-could-be-with-the-help-of-technology/

Technically speaking, the US does not operate as a true democracy. That’s because elected representatives, not the people themselves, make the government’s decisions, which means the US functions as representative democracy. And it’s not even very good at that: The Economist Intelligence Unit’s 2016 Democracy Index referred to the US as a “flawed” democracy. “The US has been downgraded from a ‘full democracy’ to a ‘flawed democracy,'” it said, “because of a further erosion of trust in government and elected officials there.”

Taiwan has been modeling her system after Switzerland over the past 2 decades. The presidents have been chosen by popular vote since 1996.

https://www.scmp.com/comment/insigh.../taiwan-asias-leading-democracy-cannot-escape

Revisions to the law last year led to the roll-out of one of the most citizen-friendly systems in the world. The new law reduced the required number of signatures in the first stage of proposing a referendum from 0.1 per cent to 0.01 per cent of the electorate, and from 5 per cent to 1.5 per cent in the second stage of collecting supporting signatures. This is a lower threshold than in Switzerland, the world’s haven of direct democracy, where 100,000 signatures, or about 2 per cent of eligible voters, are needed to trigger a citizen-initiated referendum.

So, it doesn't matter if the stake is high enough, when in fact the people merely make their choices on whom to vote on their behalf. It also doesn't matter if you vote for ML. Regardless of the results, rigged or not, just like how you don't care who wins, ML fans will still vouch for their idol. ZJK fans will still vouch for their idol. Waldner fans will still vouch for their idol. Those who think eras can't be compared will still stand by their opinions.

 

[zeio]

Because we don't agree on a set of rules to determine what GOAT should have. This is why voting is the best method for subjective question. Unless you can propose a better way voting can decide who is the GOAT.

Voting is the best method? Here's one such voting on happypingpang in Jun, 2015. So, after ML won the WTTC finally after 10 years of attempt. Zhuang Zedong wins by a wide margin. Waldner comes in second. Deng Yaping after that. LGL and KLH are lucky to get mentioned. Forget about ZJK, ML...

 

[RidTheKid]

Don't you think that the outcome of a vote today would render a different result?

Voting is the best method? Here's one such voting on happypingpang in Jun, 2015. So, after ML won the WTTC finally after 10 years of attempt. Zhuang Zedong wins by a wide margin. Waldner comes in second. Deng Yaping after that. LGL and KLH are lucky to get mentioned. Forget about ZJK, ML...

 

[ttmonster]

Yes and most likely 20 years from now it will yield a different result ... nobody is contending the fact that Ma Long is the greatest of his time and he himself said that right now I am the best ... I don't know why you guys seem to think that as fans you are not doing your duties unless you prove to the world that they guy you like is the greatest of all time .... its really ridiculous for people who are otherwise sane and rational ..

Don't you think that the outcome of a vote today would render a different result?

 

[zeio]

Don't you think that the outcome of a vote today would render a different result?

Like ttmonster said, people wouldn't care about the results.

https://medium.com/@B_Nappi/the-role-of-majority-rule-in-the-collapse-of-democracy-404bab802138

Majoritarianism is a type of voting. People believe it means that they, society, agree to be bound by some approach if more than 50% of the “people” are in favor of it. But, while appearing to be simple, there are as many ways to implement this principle as there are politicians. For example, a “majoritarian” vote can be any percentage over 50%. So, it could be 50% plus one vote or proportions like 60%, 2/3rds, and 75%, which are also common.

To understand why “majority rules” is such a flaw, it’s important to understand is exactly what a citizen’s goals are. Is voting a goal? Is talking to a representative a goal? Of course not. Voting and talking to a representative are just means to an end. The end is getting the world to behave in ways that each of us wants. This, of course, brings us right back to the problem of freedom.

In short, once 51% of a population makes a decision, the other 49% do not get what they want.

 

[RidTheKid]

I don't NEED others to tell me who the GOAT is, but I personally like to understand how others reach other conclusions than myself. I like many players but among the things that stand out with Ma Long is his wonderful understanding of TT, which is why he's dominating still. And I find Ma Long aesthetically pleasing to watch, for instance instead of Falck, watching him hurts my eyes.

Yes and most likely 20 years from now it will yield a different result ... nobody is contending the fact that Ma Long is the greatest of his time and he himself said that right now I am the best ... I don't know why you guys seem to think that as fans you are not doing your duties unless you prove to the world that they guy you like is the greatest of all time .... its really ridiculous for people who are otherwise sane and rational ..

 

[ttmonster]

When its all about you , your understanding and the sport and who seems the most pleasing to "your" eye .. rest assured there are chances that "you" could be wrong !!! .. GOAT by definitions is somebody body who is transcends time not who seems pleasing to "your" eye ... there could be somebody out there who has played short pips all his life and in his mind's eye Matthew Flack is the best ever and he thinks he would win if the ball was not changed from 38 mm to 40+ plastic ... which is why Liu Guoliang retired ... and if its all about "you"r perception of who GOAT is .. why do you care about how others reach their own conclusions as long as you are happy with yours ...

In any sports there cannot be a GOAT .. period .. there can only be the best of his time if somebody dominates that time unquestionably .. which Ma Long has done post ZJK and Wang Hao ... so during this period there is no doubt about who the best is .....

e.g. In tennis even somebody like Federer, who is the most pleasing to the eye to ever play the sport , is still not unquestionably the GOAT , because of many factors .. don't get me wrong, I am a die hard Federer fan and try to catch all his matches if possible , even at the cost of going to work late ... still I am rational enough to understand and accept the arguments that fans of Nadal, Djokovic or even Rod Laver make ....

Lets talk after the invention of time machine ..

I don't NEED others to tell me who the GOAT is, but I personally like to understand how others reach other conclusions than myself. I like many players but among the things that stand out with Ma Long is his wonderful understanding of TT, which is why he's dominating still. And I find Ma Long aesthetically pleasing to watch, for instance instead of Falck, watching him hurts my eyes.

 

[RidTheKid]

You clearly misinterpreted me. For reasons only you know. I think it's fruitful to listen to how other reach conclusions as to who the GOAT is, maybe I missed something and will learn. So far that answer is no. Results speak for themselves. And what adds to MY liking Ma Long is that he's got a great TT brain which is why he's dominating even not being 100 % fit. And just by watching him move around makes me wanna play TT, inspiring play style to say the least. He plays the game the way I would want to. Falcks style makes me want to turn off the stream.

When its all about you , your understanding and the sport and who seems the most pleasing to "your" eye .. rest assured there are chances that "you" could be wrong !!! .. GOAT by definitions is somebody body who is transcends time not who seems pleasing to "your" eye ... there could be somebody out there who has played short pips all his life and in his mind's eye Matthew Flack is the best ever and he thinks he would win if the ball was not changed from 38 mm to 40+ plastic ... which is why Liu Guoliang retired ... and if its all about "you"r perception of who GOAT is .. why do you care about how others reach their own conclusions as long as you are happy with yours ...

In any sports there cannot be a GOAT .. period .. there can only be the best of his time if somebody dominates that time unquestionably .. which Ma Long has done post ZJK and Wang Hao ... so during this period there is no doubt about who the best is .....

e.g. In tennis even somebody like Federer, who is the most pleasing to the eye to ever play the sport , is still not unquestionably the GOAT , because of many factors .. don't get me wrong, I am a die hard Federer fan and try to catch all his matches if possible , even at the cost of going to work late ... still I am rational enough to understand and accept the arguments that fans of Nadal, Djokovic or even Rod Laver make ....

Lets talk after the invention of time machine ..

 

[Lula]

I know this is a thread about the GOAT But it would be interesting to hear about other impressive achievements by players. There is alot of hard work and talant behind Ma Longs success But i feel that the chinese proably is the best partielly because they train much more than anyone else from a Young age.

I have heard that Falck trained 2-4 trainings a week up to the age of 14. After that he started to train more. Pretty impressive that he even get the chance to play against Ma long that started sta avery Young age and trained alot of hours everyday.

I am also very impressed by gionis that is also a dentist. That he become a pro in tabletennis and a dentist is really impressive. Not so strange that players like truls and the asians become good when they Do not go to high school and train all the time.

 

[tropical]

If there is no such thing as GOAT in sport then why people keep comparing one to others?

Should GOAT or GOHT (the greatest of his/her time) be the right question? Well ... we want to debate who is the GOAT not GOHT. If GOHT is chosen then ML/Victor Barna/Wang Hao/ZJK etc. are. Then it is such a moot point because just too many and debate is meaningless and boring. Anyone can claim "I am the greatest of all time in my time" because he didn't have any worthy opponents and won a local elementary TT championship in March 2015 .

So we are now back to the question who the GOAT is in table tennis. Tell me what measures/set of rules can be used to possibly settle down the debate? I volunteer to define them:

1. Records W/L - 50 points
2. Championships won - 50 points
3. Worthy opponents? . 50 points
4. Consistently lost to certain opponents. again. Minus 20 points
5. Equipments/ball/rules.. change affect styles . Another add 10 points ha ha ..
6. Voted #1 50 points, 2nd place 25 points, 3 rd place 10 points ..
7. Coming back and winning over certain opponents lost to beforre .. add 20 pnts
8. Styles .. 50 pnts. My guess some hard bat players will pick Victor.
9. etc.
10. etc.


Above are suggested rules. We do similar thing like this to determine valedictorian (the greatest in an academic year) in schools where a final competition is not held; to decide who is the Nobel winner in Chemistry, Physics, medicine....

Then you will see who the GOAT. It is actually much easier than some thought. And if the GOAT changes after many years so what is the big deal? At least we can say based on such set of rules from "TT experts" in TTD the winner is ....

 

[ttmonster]

For somebody who says they want to understand other peoples point of view ... I can tell you you are not doing a good job ... try to read my post again , read lula's post above and see it makes sense to you ... anyways I don't want to argue with you...

You clearly misinterpreted me. For reasons only you know. I think it's fruitful to listen to how other reach conclusions as to who the GOAT is, maybe I missed something and will learn. So far that answer is no. Results speak for themselves. And what adds to MY liking Ma Long is that he's got a great TT brain which is why he's dominating even not being 100 % fit. And just by watching him move around makes me wanna play TT, inspiring play style to say the least. He plays the game the way I would want to. Falcks style makes me want to turn off the stream.

 

[NextLevel]

For somebody who says they want to understand other peoples point of view ... I can tell you you are not doing a good job ... try to read my post again , read lula's post above and see it makes sense to you ... anyways I don't want to argue with you...

Exactly. He seems to confuse the point of view of others with "everyone must think about the issue the same way he does but just arrive at other conclusions" rather than just accepting that not everyone will do it like him and that is life.

 

[ttmonster]

People argue about GOAT because media has figured out that its the juciest topic to argue about without any definite conclusion so you can make ask many threads as you want or as many sports discussions as you want but there will never be an resolution .... and the debate will continue ... which will result into more clicks and more TRP ratings and hence a steady stream of revenue for them .. anytime you feel that your channel is not getting enough hits or your website is not getting enough clicks to generate adrevenue just raise this topic and you are assured of kaching kaching ... that is the simple reason ... and we all are stupid enough to try and argue why our man is the best ...

point is there there is no way of knowing who the best is .. to do that you will have to take the champions of their respective era ... use a time machine to catch them just after they were born and make sure they go through the exact same life journey , with the exact same set of coaches, facilities etc. and when they come of age release the krakens and watch them play the exact same tournaments created in such a way they play the exact same opponents cloned to match skills with same umpires on the same table at the same time .. make sure they get injured at the exact same time if one of them does ... anyways if you are following so far you get my point

If there is no such thing as GOAT in sport then why people keep comparing one to others?

Should GOAT or GOHT (the greatest of his/her time) be the right question? Well ... we want to debate who is the GOAT not GOHT. If GOHT is chosen then ML/Victor Barna/Wang Hao/ZJK etc. are. Then it is such a moot point because just too many and debate is meaningless and boring. Anyone can claim "I am the greatest of all time in my time" because he didn't have any worthy opponents and won a local elementary TT championship in March 2015 .

So we are now back to the question who the GOAT is in table tennis. Tell me what measures/set of rules can be used to possibly settle down the debate? I volunteer to define them:

1. Records W/L - 50 points
2. Championships won - 50 points
3. Worthy opponents? . 50 points
4. Consistently lost to certain opponents. again. Minus 20 points
5. Equipments/ball/rules.. change affect styles . Another add 10 points ha ha ..
6. Voted #1 50 points, 2nd place 25 points, 3 rd place 10 points ..
7. Coming back and winning over certain opponents use to lost beforre .. add 20 pnts
8. Styles .. 50 pnts. My guess some hard bat players will pick Victor.
9. etc.
10. etc.


Above are suggested rules. We do similar thing like this to determine valedictorian (the greatest in an academic year) in schools where a final competition is not held; to decide who is the Nobel winner in Chemistry, Physics, medicine....

Then you will see who the GOAT. It is actually much easier than some thought. And if the GOAT changes after many years so what is the big deal? At least we can say based on such set of rules from "TT experts" in TTD the winner is ....

 

[RidTheKid]

You are right, that is interesting and deserves it's own thread. But I can say this, to break through a system with 3 million players or 6000 players, which one do you think is easiest?

I'm very impressed by Redondo who's a lawyer but it has nothing to do with this thread

I know this is a thread about the GOAT But it would be interesting to hear about other impressive achievements by players. There is alot of hard work and talant behind Ma Longs success But i feel that the chinese proably is the best partielly because they train much more than anyone else from a Young age.

I have heard that Falck trained 2-4 trainings a week up to the age of 14. After that he started to train more. Pretty impressive that he even get the chance to play against Ma long that started sta avery Young age and trained alot of hours everyday.

I am also very impressed by gionis that is also a dentist. That he become a pro in tabletennis and a dentist is really impressive. Not so strange that players like truls and the asians become good when they Do not go to high school and train all the time.

 

[NextLevel]

People argue about GOAT because media has figured out that its the juciest topic to argue about without any definite conclusion so you can make ask many threads as you want or as many sports discussions as you want but there will never be an resolution .... and the debate will continue ... which will result into more clicks and more TRP ratings and hence a steady stream of revenue for them .. anytime you feel that your channel is not getting enough hits or your website is not getting enough clicks to generate adrevenue just raise this topic and you are assured of kaching kaching ... that is the simple reason ... and we all are stupid enough to try and argue why our man is the best ...

point is there there is no way of knowing who the best is .. to do that you will have to take the champions of their respective era ... use a time machine to catch them just after they were born and make sure they go through the exact same life journey , with the exact same set of coaches, facilities etc. and when they come of age release the krakens and watch them play the exact same tournaments created in such a way they play the exact same opponents cloned to match skills with same umpires on the same table at the same time .. make sure they get injured at the exact same time if one of them does ... anyways if you are following so far you get my point

Punditry is fun though. And you can kinda make your own judgments and have your own opinions about all kinds of things. IT is what historians do in part as trying to figure out what should be preserved for future generations when you have limited storage is a part of life. Hall of Fame etc. is in part a response to that.

 

[RidTheKid]

By your "rules" you still will end up with Ma Long which is fine by me Regarding your 5th point, they changed the ball to decrease the Chinese domination, itsn't it pretty impressive that they still dominate heavily?

If there is no such thing as GOAT in sport then why people keep comparing one to others?

Should GOAT or GOHT (the greatest of his/her time) be the right question? Well ... we want to debate who is the GOAT not GOHT. If GOHT is chosen then ML/Victor Barna/Wang Hao/ZJK etc. are. Then it is such a moot point because just too many and debate is meaningless and boring. Anyone can claim "I am the greatest of all time in my time" because he didn't have any worthy opponents and won a local elementary TT championship in March 2015 .

So we are now back to the question who the GOAT is in table tennis. Tell me what measures/set of rules can be used to possibly settle down the debate? I volunteer to define them:

1. Records W/L - 50 points
2. Championships won - 50 points
3. Worthy opponents? . 50 points
4. Consistently lost to certain opponents. again. Minus 20 points
5. Equipments/ball/rules.. change affect styles . Another add 10 points ha ha ..
6. Voted #1 50 points, 2nd place 25 points, 3 rd place 10 points ..
7. Coming back and winning over certain opponents lost to beforre .. add 20 pnts
8. Styles .. 50 pnts. My guess some hard bat players will pick Victor.
9. etc.
10. etc.


Above are suggested rules. We do similar thing like this to determine valedictorian (the greatest in an academic year) in schools where a final competition is not held; to decide who is the Nobel winner in Chemistry, Physics, medicine....

Then you will see who the GOAT. It is actually much easier than some thought. And if the GOAT changes after many years so what is the big deal? At least we can say based on such set of rules from "TT experts" in TTD the winner is ....

 

[RidTheKid]

Not at all, but WHO would be more deserving of the title GOAT? There still has not been a single suggestion which has been backed up with solid arguments. Your own reservation about Ma Long being the GOAT is that he lost to WH in several WTTC. And you refuse to consider that that version of Ma Long wasn't mature enough, that he has developed since. And still, Ma Long owns the record against h2h vs WH.

What is table tennis about?

Exactly. He seems to confuse the point of view of others with "everyone must think about the issue the same way he does but just arrive at other conclusions" rather than just accepting that not everyone will do it like him and that is life.

 

[ttmonster]

True NL but its fun as long as the people arguing are aware that is just not a serious debate and don't try to impose their opinions on others ... at the end of they this whole is thing is "IMO" and everyone has a an ... ...

But it stops being fun when you see otherwise perfectly rational people losing their heads just because they are passionate fan of so and so ... fan .. fandom is all good till it becomes fanaticism .. thats when it becomes dangerous or "not fun" .. depending on what topic it is ...

Punditry is fun though. And you can kinda make your own judgments and have your own opinions about all kinds of things. IT is what historians do in part as trying to figure out what should be preserved for future generations when you have limited storage is a part of life. Hall of Fame etc. is in part a response to that.

 

[NextLevel]

Not at all, but WHO would be more deserving of the title GOAT? There still has not been a single suggestion which has been backed up with solid arguments. Your own reservation about Ma Long being the GOAT is that he lost to WH in several WTTC. And you refuse to consider that that version of Ma Long wasn't mature enough, that he has developed since. And still, Ma Long owns the record against h2h vs WH.

What is table tennis about?

That you can't even restate my argument shows the problem. My argument is that Ma Long is the GOAT, but that I can understand why given ZJK's injuries and decline and Ma Long's poor record against Wang Hao at the big events where everyone is supposed to peak and bring their best game may give some people pause. The changes to the plastic ball also may give pause. There are also no similarly great players of Ma Long's generation in China currently playing given ZJK's decline which is not Ma Long's fault.

Of course you can consider that that version of Ma Long wasn't mature enough. But you have to remember that many of his best achievements also occurred during that time (the match streak, some #1 rankings etc.) So it is all a matter of how you weight the eye test vs how you want to weight pure numbers. All in all, I give it to Ma Long easily. But if someone says the competition now is not as clearly strong as the competition in the early 2010s when he was struggling, or that the plastic ball era is when his greatness began, I don't overweight those things, but I understand them. I consider the ball they used for the 2015 WTTC and 2016 Olympics to be an egg. But for me, given Ma Long's body of work and his ability to win all the titles, I still give it to him. But if someone raises the argument of comparing eras or peak form, I understand their issue. I would also argue that the ITTF rule changes may have denied him an Olympic singles gold in 2012. But this is all conjecture, and we don't have time machines.

Maybe you consider these nuances unimportant. I just try to understand them. I know some people think ZJK beating WH in 2012 is the same as ML beating ZJK in 2016. But I remember the matches, I watched them live, and for me, it is not even in the same galaxy.