Is ma long the GOAT ?

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Why do you keep misinterpreting my posts (twisting my words)? I start to find it insulting.

Ma Long is the GOAT because he's winning, highest win % ever in TT. That's what TT is about. Not is he plays beautifully. It's an added bonus.

I'd love for someone to prove me wrong, but no one has even tried. You guys are just trying to find faults in Ma Long being the GOAT. I ask again: who is the GOAT if you choose?
But even ML admitted a higher winning percentage didn't mean much in the major. It's more than stats. I'd love for someone to prove Ma Long wrong.

Say from 2012 on, I actually had more wins against Wang Hao in the usual tournaments. But in this kind of major, it is not just about techniques, but sometimes more about your mentality, your mindset.

...Say I played well, it’s a bit shameful, but say I didn’t play well, when in fact, I usually played very well. Why not this time? So, all I could do was walk away in silence.

And then there's this interview with Wang Tao back in 2011, less than 2 months before WTTC Rotterdam, that addressed why ML didn't get to play in singles at the Olympic 2012. WT is biased af but he makes it clear what you need to play in Olympic singles.

http://news.cntv.cn/special/fd/20110331/103966_print.shtml
我曾经也说过马龙排名世界第一,我们不认可他这个排名世界第一,他是打公开赛得来的,马龙一个冠军都没拿过世界冠军,王皓拿了无数了,就说这种,虽然排名世界第一,打公开赛挣来的这个分,没有说这种大赛中单打冠军世界杯没拿过,世锦赛没拿过,亚运会这刚拿一个 ,赢了王皓,几乎没有拿过重大比赛冠军,这对你经历不好,你要奥运会之前,你这些冠军不拿不好。

...另外你2012年,一个路走下来很难,为什么?今年面临着5月份世界锦标赛单项在荷兰,王皓上届单打冠军,两年以前的单打冠军,你这届不拿冠军,凭什么报你伦敦奥运会,是不是?这个就是考试了,平时的学习怎么样,技术考你了,你拿冠军必报无疑,刘国梁必报你,谁拿冠军肯定这名额就定了,是不是?单打冠军这个名额肯定就定了...
I said once that Ma Long ranks 1st in the world. We don't recognize him as the World No. 1 player. He got there by winning in the Opens. Ma Long has never won a world title. Wang Hao has done it countless times. He might be the World No. 1, but he earned the points from the Opens, he has never been a singles winner in the major. No World Cup, no WTTC. He took the Asian Games by beating Wang Hao. He has almost never won any major titles. This is not good for your experience. Before the Olympics, not getting these titles is not good for you.

...In addition, for 2012, it's a very difficult path. Why? Because of the WTTC in May, the individuals in the Netherlands. Wang Hao is the defending singles champion. If you don't win the WTTC, on what basis do you get selected for the London Olympics? Right? This is the exam. This is the time to find out how you've been studying. You win the WTTC, you get selected 100%. Liu Guoliang will pick you 100%. Right? Whoever claims the title, that quota will be fixed. Right? Singles Champion and the quota will definitely be fixed...

And he said that again right after the WTTC.

http://sports.163.com/special/zhuanfangwangtao/
网易体育:在第三名的位置上是不是马龙呢?很多人不看好马龙,虽然他技术很强,但每一次我们都没有看到他在关键时刻成熟起来。

王涛:马龙一度排名过世界第一,排名世界第一的马龙是中国一哥,我一直不这么认为,马龙在我的印象中没拿过单打的世界上任何一项比赛冠军,只是公开赛上拿了很多冠军,积分才超越了王皓,我不认为他是真正的排名世界第一。

我这句话可能会伤到马龙,其实马龙也跟我聊过,很认可我讲的,世界杯我没拿过,锦标赛我没拿过,奥运会哪怕拿过一次呢?马龙单打还没拿过,都没进过决赛,最好的就是世锦赛第三,从技术水平来讲,马龙现在是非常全面的选手,还得要加强他自己内心的东西。

网易体育:是不是他也需要张继科这样一种释放、升华的机会?

王涛:我觉得马龙还是有点点对自己不狠,没有把自己的潜力挖掘到顶点,他的技术水平,包括他的技术含量……你看王皓如果输给马龙,张继科跟马龙打,我肯定会倾向马龙胜,因为张继科所有的技术,马龙都不怕,打球就是一物降一物,很难说,张继科也不怕王皓,就看技术上哪方制约得比较好,在决赛中碰到对手时,首先要摆正自己的位置,要拼,第二,要看录像,分析他的技术,第三就是要调整好自己的心态,休息好,好多队员就是在赛前紧张,休息不好,想太多,这样会影响体力、影响发挥。
Netease Sports: Is Ma Long in the 3rd spot? Many people are not optimistic about Ma Long. Although he is very skilled, but so far he's failed to step up at the crucial moment.

Wang Tao: Ma Long once ranked 1st in the world. Ma Long, being ranked 1st in the world, is the Chinese alpha male? I have never thought so. Off the top of my head, Ma Long has never won a singles title in any of the majors. He's only won many in the Opens, and so his ranking points surpassed Wang Hao. I don't think he is the true World No. 1.

My comment may hurt Ma Long, but in fact, Ma Long has also talked to me and agreed with what I said. I haven’t won the World Cup. I haven’t won the WTTC. But I have won the Olympics once? Ma Long has not won in singles yet, has not reached the final, and his best is 3rd place at WTTC. In terms of technical level, Ma Long is now a very comprehensive player, but he still needs to strengthen his mentality.

Netease Sports: Does he also need a chance to release, to sublimate like Zhang Jike?

Wang Tao: I think Ma Long is still not harsh enough on himself. He has not tapped into his potential to the utmost. His skill level, including his technical content...You see, had Wang Hao lost to Ma Long, and Zhang Jike were to meet Ma Long, I would definitely lean towards Ma Long to win, because Ma Long is not afraid of Zhang Jike. It's just like the predator-prey relationships. It is difficult to say. Zhang Jike is also not afraid of Wang Hao, so it depends on which side does better in suppressing the other technically. When facing the opponent in the final, first is to get your attitude right, to fight. Second, to watch the video, analyze his skills. Third is to adjust their mentality, rest well. Many players are nervous before the match, and not getting a good rest, thinking too much. That will affect the physical strength and performance.
 
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For sure you are not the one who escaped a dictatorship system to live in a democracy country. For sure you are the one you are blessed by the system that you currently reside in. For sure you never had to spend any hardship earning $3/hr to survive while learning to adapt to a completely strange environment. For sure you will never understand!

For sure I do not need to smear/tarnish China image. It is what it is.

Get in line. I have Vietnamese relatives in the US. They never sound like a whiny baby. Ya, like you're the only one who have gone through hardships.
 
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maybe it can happen in the future.

Yes, that's a theoretic possibility; the emergence of a future player clearly and definitively trumping all other players past and present, at exactly that point in time where the future of table tennis ceases. (If that is going to happen, I'm betting it will be shortly after the final acceleration of the sixth mass extinction event, i.e. the near future.)
 
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Then we have to agree on "eras" and players "prime". Seeing Ma Long in 2011 he dominated the results more, better streaks, but he wasn't as good (complete) as today even though he had better ranking then and the favorite to win WTTC. His bh 2019 is in no way inferior to anyone elses and he's improved most areas of his game, but most importantly his nerves. So was his prime 2011-2013 or now? His physical prime has passed, for me it was 2015-2016, where he moved like a cat on speed. 2019 he moves strategically with anticipation, making sure to never get out of position. Mentally his prime is 2019 and ever growing. He's confident he has what it takes every time he plays a big match. Next year his mental prime will be even better but his body will be even older. Intriguing times ahead for Ma Long fans and TT fans as a whole.

It is better to just categorize GOATs by era. Too hypothetical to compare because of the what ifs.
 
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Well let's make a case for prime Wang Liqin or Zhang Jike. They won WTTC champs in the cell ball era in field in which Ma Long participated. Ma Long won his with plastic. Therefore I take those 2 over Ma Long because I don't consider plastic results on the same level. They also beat their peers to win those medals.

Another point here. WTTC 2013 was the last time we had 7 quotas per association. 5 per association ever since WTTC 2015. China got 6 as the host for Suzhou.

WTTC 2011 was star-studded. WLQ, MLin, WH, CQ, ML, ZJK, XX, Samsonov, Boll, Ovtcharov, RSM, JSH, OSE, Mizutani...
 
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What if Ma Long is so much better than his peers 2019 that the competition seems "weak"? The new generation of stars has to wait to take over because Ma Long is still working on improving his game and prolonging his career? It's not black or white. Many players that are evenly matched that make a strong competition does not equal we find the GOAT in that group, it can also tell us that no one is the GOAT in that group seeing as no one is really good enough to dominate his peers in said group (generation) of players.

Zeio, do you believe Ma Long was a better player in 2013 or 2019?

Another point here. WTTC 2013 was the last time we had 7 quotas per association. 5 per association ever since WTTC 2015.

WTTC 2011 was star-studded. WLQ, MLin, WH, CQ, ML, ZJK, XX, Samsonov, Boll, Ovtcharov, RSM, JSH, OSE, Mizutani...
 
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It doesn't matter if ML is better now. ML thought himself he should've beaten WH and he didn't. He should've beaten ZJK in 2014 and he didn't. He's had his chances.

Same thing for FZD. This was his 4th time playing WTTC(first in 2013, losing to ZJK). If he ever overtakes ML's "most decorated" status in the future and people claim he's the GOAT, I'll be there to give them a piece of me.
 
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Agree to disagree then. To be able to develop, to improve, to get through adversity, are traits worthy of a GOAT. Fang Bo beat ZJK in WTTC 2015 and deserved his final spot. Or are you gonna make excuses for ZJK and diminish FB's accomplishment? :) If ML destroyed FB in the final, who won over ZJK, don't you think ML in 2015 years form would eat ZJK for breakfast? Like he did in the 2015 Grand finals ;)

It doesn't matter if ML is better now. ML thought himself he should've beaten WH and he didn't. He should've beaten ZJK in 2014 and he didn't. He's had his chances.

Same thing for FZD. This was his 4th time playing WTTC(first in 2013, losing to ZJK). If he ever overtakes ML's "most decorated" status in the future and people claim he's the GOAT, I'll be there to give them a piece of me.
 
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Someone here argued that JW WTTC MS title has more gold content because he beat former WTTC MS winner JJL in WTTTC, although WTTC and WTTTC are two separate events. Interesting thoughts just came to my mind following that logic.
Let's see who beat former OG MS winners in OG team events or beat former WTTC MS winners in WTTTC in the past two decades.

2000 WTTTC, KLH beat JW, JP beat KLH, both JP and JW beat LGL (defending WTTC MS champion)
2012 OG team, TB beat ZJK (defending OG MS champion), ML beat RSM
2014 WTTTC, DO beat ZJK (defending WTTC MS champion)

And I have already found some "good excuses" to explain the results:
2000 JW and KLH, old and past prime (wait, these 2 made to 2000 OG MS final later the year?)
2000 LGL, affected by doping accusation
2000 JP, "must be doped"
2012 RSM, old and past prime; ML, lucky
2012 TB, "must be doped"; ZJK did not care about unimportant match
2014 ZJK, injured and/or did not care about unimportant match; DO lucky

I didn't want to go this far against a fan...girl but you gotta read up on the history of your national sport more.

See for yourself the gold content of Jiang Jialiang's WTTC titles in 1985 and 1987. Last but not least, the story behind 1989...

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_bdf03d2a0101brrv.html
1986年7月,特立尼达和多巴哥第七届世界杯。中国双龙江嘉良、陈龙灿一路顺风,会师决赛。

临开赛前,郗恩庭教练交给江嘉良一封信,这信是出国前总教练许绍发写的(许总没来特多城)。信中说“嘉良,提笔写这封信时我自己也很矛盾……”,“倘若你俩会师决赛请你让给陈龙灿,因为世锦赛、世界杯冠军你都已经拿过了,而龙灿尚未获得过世界杯……”许还在信中告诉江嘉良一个“秘密”:去年(1985年哥德堡)世乒赛男单决赛,陈龙灿输给他,亦是领导的幕后安排。

http://sports.people.com.cn/BIG5/151651/158235/9493389.html
  江嘉良很坦誠地說:單打決賽之前,陳龍燦在半決賽時讓給了他,這對他保留體力和老瓦決戰非常有利——“那時候是21分、五局三勝,我團體、單打、雙打、混雙全都要參賽,我從早上九點開始打,打到晚上十一點,有時間吃一塊牛排,沒時間就吃方便面牛肉干巧克力,所以,為了確保中國隊拿男單金牌,隊裡就安排陳龍燦讓了球,就像我混雙讓給焦志敏他們那樣。”

http://www.sundns.org/discuz/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=203762
然而,这次的“让球”,却并非是他运动员生涯中最为惨痛的。要说最令他不解和倍感委屈的“让球”,恐怕要数第40届世乒赛上男子单打的八进四了。
当时的江嘉良已是连续两届世乒赛男单冠军得主,倘若能再次夺冠,便将成为世界乒乓球史上继庄则栋之后,第二位连续三届夺得男单冠军圣勃莱德杯的中国人,也就能长久拥有这一代表世界男子乒乓球最高水平的奖杯。
然而,正当顺利杀入单打八强的江嘉良满怀豪情准备再向前挺进时,却遇到了同样闯入八强的我国选手于沈潼。要杀入前四名取得半决赛权,他与于沈潼之间唯有牺牲一个,江嘉良成了非常不幸的那一位,他奉命让道给当时被誉为中国直板快攻打法接班人的于沈潼。

“那场球我以1比3输了。打这种球很痛苦、很难受,因为你必须输,还要输得像模像样外人看不出来。那是一种什么滋味啊?”此时,甚少叹息的江嘉良叹息了。

“我当时真不明白为什么不让我上?前面的对手是我国的许增才或是瑞典的佩尔森,我都很有信心的呀。况且,我都到这一步了,总该让我搏一下吧?但是,这就是游戏规则。”
非常不幸的是,战胜江嘉良而进入半决赛的于沈潼最终却以1比3败给了佩尔森,中国在那一届世乒赛上也丢失了男单冠军奖杯。

尽管曾尝过“让球”的种种痛苦,但他亦承认,自己也曾多次尝到甜头,因为别人也曾“让球”给他。
在江嘉良的记忆中,惠钧、陈新华和陈龙灿等都曾在国际比赛中“让球”给自己。而他印象最深的便是在第38届世乒赛的男单比赛上,他在半决赛中战胜了香港的卢传淞后,便在决赛中遇到陈龙灿。于是,陈龙灿奉命让他圆了男单的世界冠军梦.
 
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What happened to Fang bo after being in final ? Was he that good to beat xu xin and Zhang jike in a row?? What happened to him after WTTC ?, Did he get to the highest podiums ?? He had skills too but he was a lucky bastard ;) there in final .


Watch Zhang jike's injury vs mizutani and people's comment in that time if you belive your eyes at least :(


Rid the kid You wont chang your mind ( zeio has almost killed himself ;) ) as others wont so what is the benefit of going on with this topic ....
 
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We both know you're the biggest ZJK fan here and you will never ever say anything negative about him :) If ZJK was injured against Jun he did a fine job of disguising it as someone in great form, ZJK destroyed Jun. Did you see a ZJK in bad shape?

ML played with a sprained ankle in the WTTC 2017 and still won :)

I don't think ZJK is the GOAT, no. One of the greatest talents this world has ever seen, though.

Fang Bo is a very good player, his problem is the mental part, he seems to be mentally blocked to bring out his best game regularly. His technique is top notch, overshadowed by very few players.


What happened to Fang bo after being in final ? Was he that good to beat xu xin and Zhang jike in a row?? What happened to him after WTTC ?, Did he get to the highest podiums ?? He had skills too but he was a lucky bastard ;) there in final .


Watch Zhang jike's injury vs mizutani and people's comment in that time if you belive your eyes at least :(


Rid the kid You wont chang your mind ( zeio has almost killed himself ;) ) as others wont so what is the benefit of going on with this topic ....
 
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Wang Liqin is a good candidate but he's missing the OG in singles. Why do you value the cell ball era higher? It was easier for asian players (smaller players generally) to dominate with that ball. Much harder with the plastic ball since it demands more of the physique to get power and spin. I actually think the plastic ball is another point for Ma Long seeing how hard he must've worked out to get that power with the plastic ball.

One of the best matches ever played with two guys who really wanted it. Cell ball era ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUX0mOVjwg

I could just as well argue that the spin on the celluloid ball was harder to control and made mastery of the serve return and rallies much more difficult. The problem is that if you already have an answer in mind, most of your logic will justify the answer. Zeio also brought up the 7 per nation rule which is key because more good players from the top nations. And Zhsng Jike and Wang Liqin were winning in these eras. Ma Long couldn't win those events. He won when the events were watered down.
 
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When there were 3 quotas in OG MS, one did not have to be WTTC winner to be selected by CNT. Before 2008 OG, did MLin win WTTC before? Did WH make into WTTC final (oops did OG final and loss help?) before? When Wang Tao, WH's provincial coach and ZJK's provincial coach when he was exchanged to PLA talked about CNT 2012 OG MS selection in 2011 May, he just tried to fit the results with the sudden hidden rule of CNT - recent WTTC winners are selected for OG MS when there are two quotas.

I am very very looking forward to Wang Tao, now FZD's provincial coach, to explain when FZD gets selected to 2020 OG. Will he say
"I said once that FZD ranks 1st in the world. We don't recognize him as the World No. 1 player. He got there by winning in the Opens. FZD has never won a world title. ML has done it countless times. He might be the World No. 1, but he earned the points from the Opens, he has never been a singles winner in the major when ML was around. No WTTC. He took the Asian Games by beating LGY (Oops, he took Asian Cup by beating ML). He has almost never won any major titles. This is not good for your experience. Before the Olympics, not getting these titles is not good for you.


...In addition, for 2020, it's a very difficult path. Why? Because of the WTTC in April, the individuals in Budapest. ML is the defending singles champion. If you don't win the WTTC, on what basis do you get selected for the Tokyo Olympics? Right? This is the exam. This is the time to find out how you've been studying. You win the WTTC, you get selected 100%. Liu Guoliang will pick you 100%. Right? Whoever claims the title, that quota will be fixed. Right? Singles Champion and the quota will definitely be fixed..."

I am pretty looking forward to WT's double standards.
 
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Then we have to agree on "eras" and players "prime". Seeing Ma Long in 2011 he dominated the results more, better streaks, but he wasn't as good (complete) as today even though he had better ranking then and the favorite to win WTTC. His bh 2019 is in no way inferior to anyone elses and he's improved most areas of his game, but most importantly his nerves. So was his prime 2011-2013 or now? His physical prime has passed, for me it was 2015-2016, where he moved like a cat on speed. 2019 he moves strategically with anticipation, making sure to never get out of position. Mentally his prime is 2019 and ever growing. He's confident he has what it takes every time he plays a big match. Next year his mental prime will be even better but his body will be even older. Intriguing times ahead for Ma Long fans and TT fans as a whole.

Maybe he was as good but the plastic ball just made the backhand easier to play. Even players who had crappy backhands like Par Gerell developed better backhands with the plastic ball. Dima pointed this out as one of the things that changed as more consistent plastic balls were developed.

The point here is that you keep thinking that your answer is do right that there is no reasonable way someone can disagree with you. Like I said, the fact I think Ma Long is the GOAT in no way means that I can't understand why s pick someone could point at someone else. All his titles have come with the plastic ball. Someone could even argue that Wang Liqin and Ma Lin were hurt by speed glue and Wang Hao, despite having some racket incidents, adapted best.

So is Ma Long the plastic ball era GOAT? No doubt. Even zeio and ping fun would struggle to argue here. But when speaking of all time and refusing to break up eras, you have to deal with assigning weights to various changes and factors.

For example, some people will weight the majors more. See Wang Tao. Some less, like my humble self, noting that Waldner hardly dominated Europe on a consistent basis. But the change to plastic ball and fewer reps per country can be considered a clean break from prior times by some.
 
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7 player rule... I already listed how many CNT players in the same half of recent WTTC winner and how many they beat in post #170
2009 there were 7 CNT players and WH met 1 in his half
2011 there were 7 CNT players and ZJK met 1 in his half
2015 there were 6 CNT players and ML met 1 in his half
 
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But they all practiced and played with the same ball, fact :D The ball is a moot argument. Seems like you're trying to reach for straws :)

Rains post under yours is very informative, facts.


I could just as well argue that the spin on the celluloid ball was harder to control and made mastery of the serve return and rallies much more difficult. The problem is that if you already have an answer in mind, most of your logic will justify the answer. Zeio also brought up the 7 per nation rule which is key because more good players from the top nations. And Zhsng Jike and Wang Liqin were winning in these eras. Ma Long couldn't win those events. He won when the events were watered down.
 
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You will have a hard time arguing for when certain players "eras" started and ended.

Maybe he was as good but the plastic ball just made the backhand easier to play. Even players who had crappy backhands like Par Gerell developed better backhands with the plastic ball. Dima pointed this out as one of the things that changed as more consistent plastic balls were developed.

The point here is that you keep thinking that your answer is do right that there is no reasonable way someone can disagree with you. Like I said, the fact I think Ma Long is the GOAT in no way means that I can't understand why s pick someone could point at someone else. All his titles have come with the plastic ball. Someone could even argue that Wang Liqin and Ma Lin were hurt by speed glue and Wang Hao, despite having some racket incidents, adapted best.

So is Ma Long the plastic ball era GOAT? No doubt. Even zeio and ping fun would struggle to argue here. But when speaking of all time and refusing to break up eras, you have to deal with assigning weights to various changes and factors.

For example, some people will weight the majors more. See Wang Tao. Some less, like my humble self, noting that Waldner hardly dominated Europe on a consistent basis. But the change to plastic ball and fewer reps per country can be considered a clean break from prior times by some.
 
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Relative toughness of the draw for each recent WTTC winner.
I did say looking at the path, 2011 is "tough" and 2015 is "easy". Both tougher than 2009.
But simply it has nothing to do with how many players each association can send. If you don't understand seeding and draw, learn it first.

Your last sentence about 2019 WTTC came back to the gold content argument. Different tournaments cannot be compared this way because the tension, quota and schedule are too different. At OG one only meets teammate in the final (since 2012) while at WTTC, there are more chances to face teammates even with a lucky draw. One can argue for CNT players, playing teammate is more difficult because they know each other well; one can also argue that playing non-CNT players who are on the blacklist of CNT (1st, 2nd, 3rd tier major rivals when CNT made preparations for each WTTC) is more difficult because one cannot afford a loss to non-CNT in major events. So I list all CNT teammates and major rivals for each recent WTTC winner (#seeding) as "toughness" test.


2007 WLQ(#2) beat Hou Yingchao(#13), Hao Shuai(#10), MLin(#1) (7 CNT players attended, beat 2 out of other 3 in his half) and Ryu Seung-Min (#9, 1st tier)
2009 WH(#1) beat ML(#3), WLQ(#4) (7 CNT players attended, beat 1 out of other 2 in his half)
2011 ZJK(#3) beat WLQ(#9), WH(#1) (7 CNT players attended, beat 1 out of other 3 in his half) and Timo Boll (#2, 1st tier), Joo Sae-hyuk (#10, 1st tier)
2013 ZJK(#4) beat FZD(#27), XX(#1), WH(#3) (7 CNT players attended, beat 2 out of other 3 in his half) and Patrick Baum (#20, 2nd tier)
2015 ML(#1) beat FZD(#3), FB(#13) (6 CNT players attended, beat another 1 in his half) and Joo Sae-hyuk (#15, 1st tier)
2017 ML(#1) beat XX (#3), FZD(#2) (5 CNT players attended, beat 1 out of other 2 in his half) and Chuang Chih Yuan (#9, 1st tier), Timo Boll (#8, 1st tier)
2019 ML(#11) beat LJK(#9), LGY(#3) (5 CNT players attended, beat 2 out of other 3 in his half) and Hugo Calderano (#7, 2nd tier), Vladimir Samsonov (#18, 2nd tier), Mattias Falck (#16, 3rd tier)


Obviously, 2009 is the "easiest" one. 2015 is easy. 2011 and 2017 are tough. 2019 could be tougher for ML if FZD beat LJK and/or XX reached the final instead of Mattias Falck as many predicted; but that's not ML's fault.
 
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