carbon blade with spin ability

[IB66]

Hi,

Out of interest, what is the spin level when you are serving? Still reduced to what you would normally expect? Or as good as you usually produce with your previous blade and rubbers?
Was you using the same rubbers on your previous set up that you are using on the Harimoto?

 

[Michael Zhuang]

Yes, if it is actually softer, it should. See what I'm implying here? 😉

But keep in mind, like I said in the previous comment, a springer paddle could also generate more spin, depends on how much the spring effect amplifies the power you apply to the ball.

Maybe that's why HL5 generates a lot of spin. Its both soft and springy.

 

[NDH]

Anyways, I am merely looking for suggestions for modern ALC/ZLC blades that offer good control with ABS balls without impairing the spin ability compared to all-wood too much and reasons for why you would recommend a certain blade, but not for a discussion about semantics.

The thing is (and I mean no disrespect here), these threads are incredibly common, and typically, the OP doesn’t have the required skill level to take advantage of the recommendations anyway.

You say you are a 2000 rated player (or equivalent)? I find it incredibly hard to believe that you can’t get good spin from the Harimoto, and from other comments you’ve made, it seems that you are massively over analysing your equipment.

I can list you a number of blades that offer good spin and control….. for me. But what’s the point if you don’t play like I do, spin the ball like I do or like what I like?

These threads are akin to hobbyists who just like talking about their hobby without using the stuff……

And that’s absolutely fine - A lot of people get great enjoyment from talking and buying TT equipment - Most of the time, said equipment is faaaaaar beyond their ability level….. But who cares? They like it, it makes them happy, and that’s what matters.

Not that I particularly care, but you have other developing/improving players who see these threads and then start to over analyse their own equipment….. which is usually detrimental to their improvement (in many cases).

So yeah, if you’ve got video of yourself playing, I’m sure people will be able to make much better suggestions.

There is a “video safe” thread where only certain people can comment if you are concerned. Or you can PM someone directly.

Again, no offence intended, and k hope you find something that makes you happy.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hahah-ha-ha-hah...Hahah-ha-ha-hah... Hahahahahahahahahaheh

So laughs Woody Woodpecker every time such a thread happens on a table tennis forum.

NDH must have gotten the azz on this, just like I would and often do over these threads. I do not apologize in advance or apologize at all over what I say when I comment on these threads.

I agree with NDH's assessment that the overwhelming majority of players who create these threads do not have enough skill at the moment to operate the gear in the manner intended and do not have enough skill to apply any of the sound advice given. I also agree it is futile to reason over these, fanboyz exclude reason most every time.

I agree with NDH's conclusion that these threads actually are a detrimental pressure towards any developing player reading such threads.

Should we go full totalitarian and destroy said threads? No. I am simply going to voice what see as a reasonable position that some others will view as unreasonable and mean. I am not worried about these opinions or being seen as mean. I will sometimes be colorful in my articulation expressing my disgust over fanboy stuff that is pounded to a pulp over and over on the forums every week.

 

[Der_Echte]

Having said what I said about level of players... even in USA, where a 2000 level player is universally accepted as not having hiz head stull full all the way up hiz azz...it is a true fact that the majority of USA 2000 players do not have a means to safely spin the ball enough in numerous shot situations.

The preference is usually to loop drive... not to go for slower, heavier, safer spin... if EVER... or not to go for a slower ball better placed with moderate varied spin.

Even to the USA 2000 crowd, advice on how to generate spin is like hitting a wall. A lot of them have not learned an efficient short area whip or longer whip efficient enough to function in a number of shot situations... nor do the great majority of this crowd even at this good level have control of grip pressure and fingers to transfer power in terms of spin and/or speed. Many tighten up to early and do not keep their chain loose.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Many tighten up to early and do not keep their chain loose.

Have you been trying to keep your chain loose again Der? hahahahaha.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Zeen, this is what I have gleaned from my reading of this thread.

It sounds like you unfortunately got a Harimoto blade that is much lighter than it should be. Any blade that is 84 grams is not going to have the inertia behind it on contact for what you are asking it to do. And I don't think adding things like weight to the handle, or extra layers of glue, or edge tape, to make it heavier will add more WOOD and MASS to the blade face.

These are the best options I can think of:

1) Stick with the PowerPlay that you have.
2) Get another PowerPlay but one that is heavier (I find when a blade is between 92-97 grams, that is a good weight for me. And that is going to feel really good and you will have a higher spin potential because of the extra inertia from the extra mass in the wood of the blade face).
3) Get one of any number of blades (including a Harimoto) but make sure the weight of whatever blade you get is not below 89 grams and, hopefully is more like 91-95 grams.

Other blades besides a Harimoto that is not a feather weight that you might consider could be:

Innerforce ALC
Innerforce ZLC
Apolonia ZLC

Will any of those blades, at the right weight, give you the results you want? I doubt it. I think the PowerPlay will probably still give you better spin. And getting one with a little extra weight will give you even more spin and more power on your shots.

So I would just stick with the PowerPlay or get a heavier PowerPlay if I was you.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

BTW: with all those ALC and ZLC blade models I mentioned in my previous post, the weight would affect the spin potential much more than the model. So, if, in theory, the Innerforce ALC was the one that was able to create the most spin but you get an Innerforce ALC at 84 grams and an Innerforce ZLC at 93 grams, the 93 gram blade would be more of what you want.....regardless of which model.

 

[Lula]

Why do you want to change?

 

[jamiebtt]

Hello, I'm looking for a carbon blade that helps with ease of spin creation and that has a strong maximum spin capability.It should be slower than viscaria, but faster than persson powerplay.And control needs to be good, which means it cannot be too flexible such as some very thin carbon blades are.I have bought a harimoto alc and I'm very disappointed in its spin ability. Ease of creation is there but maximum spin very bad.Blocks come back too low and without spin and defenders complain about the lack of spin in my loops.And no, I am not noob player or rubber issue such as bad glue job or technique issue whatsoever.Of course with some adjustment I can mitigate the issue but only by around 30%.Any suggestions?

Harimoto alc should be exactly what your looking for it is defo very spinny one of the spinniest carbon blades there is

 

[Zeen]

Hi,

Out of interest, what is the spin level when you are serving? Still reduced to what you would normally expect? Or as good as you usually produce with your previous blade and rubbers?
Was you using the same rubbers on your previous set up that you are using on the Harimoto?

As I wrote before, serving spin is normal, and anything at low to medium impact is, too. Same rubbers.

 

[Zeen]

Harimoto alc should be exactly what your looking for it is defo very spinny one of the spinniest carbon blades there is

From the modern thicker ones maybe. The older thinner ones, however, like WSC, PG-12, HL5, H301, etc. are spinnier.

 

[Zeen]

The thing is (and I mean no disrespect here), these threads are incredibly common, and typically, the OP doesn’t have the required skill level to take advantage of the recommendations anyway.

You say you are a 2000 rated player (or equivalent)? I find it incredibly hard to believe that you can’t get good spin from the Harimoto, and from other comments you’ve made, it seems that you are massively over analysing your equipment.

I can list you a number of blades that offer good spin and control….. for me. But what’s the point if you don’t play like I do, spin the ball like I do or like what I like?

These threads are akin to hobbyists who just like talking about their hobby without using the stuff……

And that’s absolutely fine - A lot of people get great enjoyment from talking and buying TT equipment - Most of the time, said equipment is faaaaaar beyond their ability level….. But who cares? They like it, it makes them happy, and that’s what matters.

Not that I particularly care, but you have other developing/improving players who see these threads and then start to over analyse their own equipment….. which is usually detrimental to their improvement (in many cases).

So yeah, if you’ve got video of yourself playing, I’m sure people will be able to make much better suggestions.

There is a “video safe” thread where only certain people can comment if you are concerned. Or you can PM someone directly.

Again, no offence intended, and k hope you find something that makes you happy.

I do have recordings from league matches, but I do not like to upload videos due to privacy concerns, although I understand it would help the cause.
Rest assured that I do not fall into the category of smack talking hobbyist. However, there is not necessarily a correlation between playing level and equipment knowledge. I have bundesliga players in my club to talk to that just play with the same butterfly stuff for decades. Not much point in asking.

 

[Zeen]

Zeen, this is what I have gleaned from my reading of this thread.

It sounds like you unfortunately got a Harimoto blade that is much lighter than it should be. Any blade that is 84 grams is not going to have the inertia behind it on contact for what you are asking it to do. And I don't think adding things like weight to the handle, or extra layers of glue, or edge tape, to make it heavier will add more WOOD and MASS to the blade face.

These are the best options I can think of:

1) Stick with the PowerPlay that you have.
2) Get another PowerPlay but one that is heavier (I find when a blade is between 92-97 grams, that is a good weight for me. And that is going to feel really good and you will have a higher spin potential because of the extra inertia from the extra mass in the wood of the blade face).
3) Get one of any number of blades (including a Harimoto) but make sure the weight of whatever blade you get is not below 89 grams and, hopefully is more like 91-95 grams.

Other blades besides a Harimoto that is not a feather weight that you might consider could be:

Innerforce ALC
Innerforce ZLC
Apolonia ZLC

Will any of those blades, at the right weight, give you the results you want? I doubt it. I think the PowerPlay will probably still give you better spin. And getting one with a little extra weight will give you even more spin and more power on your shots.

So I would just stick with the PowerPlay or get a heavier PowerPlay if I was you.

Interesting to hear about blade weight possibly affecting spin. Funnily, I tried to get a 88-92g harimoto, but the local butterfly dealer said 84g is the heaviest they have. Of course that makes you wonder wtf is going on there.

I do have a newish 92g powerplay. I think my older one was 89g. The new one is harder and faster, and a bit stiffer. Which reminds me that I disliked the stiffness and hardness of the new blade when I got it two years ago. I feel blades become more flexible and softer over time, which makes them slower and spinnier. So maybe the harimoto needs to be broken in as well? I have not verified this with a partner, but when impacting the ball more towards the tip of the harimoto the spin quality seemed to be significantly higher, leading me to believe flex could be the issue. Also, I played with koto outer the last 3 years so technical adjustments need some time. Will keep you posted.

Thanks, I think your considerations and suggestions are very reasonable and helpful. My idea is to make a list for testing in the summer break in case the harimoto is not for me. Since there are currently league games I preferably do not want to test much at all, as it messes up my game. Oh, and I just remembered that powerplay senso V1 and V2 also exist 😂

 

[NDH]

I do have recordings from league matches, but I do not like to upload videos due to privacy concerns, although I understand it would help the cause.
Rest assured that I do not fall into the category of smack talking hobbyist. However, there is not necessarily a correlation between playing level and equipment knowledge. I have bundesliga players in my club to talk to that just play with the same butterfly stuff for decades. Not much point in asking.

Feel free to PM me privately if you’d prefer? Or Carl, or any of the approved reviewers on the video thread.

I absolutely agree that skill level does not correlate with equipment knowledge.

My point was more the other way around…… The vast majority of players who post threads like this, aren’t actually skilful enough to notice the subtle differences.

Which really just makes the thread a big old “fan” discussion about hypothetical situations.

I mean…. You talk about playing with a Koto outer layer, and needing some adjustments……

That is a comment I’d expect from someone who has read a lot about equipment and materials, but perhaps does not have the ability to really feel the differences.

Or you are pro……

I‘ve never given the outer layer, inner layer or carbon a second thought, and I play at the highest level in the UK (outside of the pros).

I change blades quite regularly because I’m like a Magpie…… attracted to the new shiny blade! And my results don’t suffer, nor does my technique.

On paper, there are millions of little differences to the equipment. In reality, the differences are so small, most
people wouldn’t know - Even good players.

 

[Deep74]

Feel free to PM me privately if you’d prefer? Or Carl, or any of the approved reviewers on the video thread.

I absolutely agree that skill level does not correlate with equipment knowledge.

My point was more the other way around…… The vast majority of players who post threads like this, aren’t actually skilful enough to notice the subtle differences.

Which really just makes the thread a big old “fan” discussion about hypothetical situations.

I mean…. You talk about playing with a Koto outer layer, and needing some adjustments……

That is a comment I’d expect from someone who has read a lot about equipment and materials, but perhaps does not have the ability to really feel the differences.

Or you are pro……

I‘ve never given the outer layer, inner layer or carbon a second thought, and I play at the highest level in the UK (outside of the pros).

I change blades quite regularly because I’m like a Magpie…… attracted to the new shiny blade! And my results don’t suffer, nor does my technique.

On paper, there are millions of little differences to the equipment. In reality, the differences are so small, most
people wouldn’t know - Even good players.

I’m really curious to know your full name if you care to give??

I have over past 2 years tested various blades rather than rubbers and never effected my game but have looked for things that one blade provides that another doesn’t and this is based on playing style as well as technique.

Recently I have changed from D09C to hurricane 3 provincial and hardly any adjustment was needed and I prefer hurricane. After using D80 on bh for 2.5 years I had the urge to test D05 which I got last wk and played for a training session. I have 2 identical blades lin Gaoyuan alc so I’m not disrupting my original set up. So now I have original set up H3N provincial blue with D80 and other one H3N provincial orange with D05. Interchanging during session on Thursday no adjustments were really required other than little more effort needed on new set up as rubbers not broken in yet specially the hurricane, but the tiny adjustment was easily done.

tbh early days but I think I may prefer the D05. When I first tried it over 2.5 years ago it didn’t seems friendly for my bh technique but now as all that has changed it was effortless.

apologies for off track msg. This is mainly aimed at NDH as I agree with alot of your msgs on these threads.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

One thing I will say, what a player feels really depends on that player.

I admit that I am a weird character. I am a yoga teacher, I have been practicing and teaching for decades. From my perspective, a central part of that practice is FEELING what you are doing. Seeing how, putting yourself in semi-stressful positions and breathing as if you were relaxed feels: what different parts of your body feel, the emotions that come up as a result, feeling whether a particular position raises your energy level or causes you to feel more relaxed. And for sure, I can get myself (or someone else who I am working with) to be more relaxed or more hyped up depending on what the goals of the particular practice are. I can also help someone lower their blood pressure and slow their heart rate (temporarily) depending on how I have them practice.

So, for me, the feeling of the wood in the blade is not such a small thing. I have played with blades with harder and softer top plies. I have played with blades that are more and less flexible. If you put a blade that has a balsa core in my hand, and I can't see the wood but play with the blade to feel the blade, I can USUALLY tell you that the core feels like Balsa. Part of why I use an all wood blade is, I really like that all wood feeling and carbon blades I have used just have so much less of the wood resonance that I like to feel in my hand.

I love the way a blade that has a Limba top ply with a Spruce ply under it FEELS. But I don't like how fast the ball rebounds off the blade face when a Spruce ply is under a Limba ply.

I have used blades with harder top plies. I used a Timo Boll ZLF for a few years before 2015. Once I was used to it, it was quite a good blade. I never needed to change from using that blade. There are many really cool things about how the top ply being thin and hard (Koto) and the Zylon under it (with no carbon) being soft with a lot of rebound, causes the ball to really sink in and you can generate a TON of spin with that blade as a result and you also get this really cool, crisp snap on contact when you dig into the ball a little more.

Why did I change from that blade. One day I was hitting with a friend who had switched from a TB ALC to a DHS Hurricane King (Koto-Spruce-Ayous-Spruce-Koto I think that is the wood ply construction but I am not going to look and make sure my memory from 7 years ago is correct) and when I hit with that blade it hit me how much I missed that extra feeling of wood resonance.

After playing with my OSP Virtuoso Plus (Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba) for several years, Der_Echte gave me a Kim Jung Hoon (Nexy/Tibhar) blade. The top ply is White Ash. It is a 7 ply blade. I can't remember the rest of the plies. I set it up with every intention of using it as my main weapon even though I had no reason to change since my V+ works really well for me. I know, if I played with the KJH blade for long enough I would have gotten used to it and it would have been fine. But I just did not like the hard feeling of the top ply. I really didn't. I remember talking with NextLevel about it and he agreed that the KJH was much harder than the blades I had been using. At the time he was experimenting with the difference in impact depth for using harder top plies. NL is someone who also geeks out on subtle differences in playing characteristics of blades. He had a really good explanation for things softer blades and harder blades were useful for.

But I just knew, I had no real reason to change and really liked everything about the V+ so I went back to it after a few weeks.

Nate is a blade maker on this site. Maybe a year ago he sent me a PM and said he made a blade with me in mind and wanted me to take it, try it and see if I could tell him what I feel about the core (Red Cedar) he used for the blade and how it performed and how it was similar or different than the core I was used to (Ayous) and the rest of the ply construction was the same. V+ = Limba-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Limba. Nate's blade which I decided was "the Spin Machine" (I call the V+ "Holly & Phoenix Feather"), Nate's blade was: Limba-Limba-Red Cedar-Limba-Limba. The ply thicknesses and overall thickness are very close. There is a whole thread on the subtle distinctions between the two blades. But, one thing I can say, the Red Cedar (Spin Machine) was softer but I can go from one to the other without really caring because the important things about the two blades are so similar.

The Thread Where I Compare My Virtuoso + with the Nate Vortex Spin Machine

So, for sure, not everyone will care or notice the difference between blade constructions. A lot of Butterfly blades have almost the same blade construction with very small differences. But it really depends on the person whether they can tell the difference, care about the difference or not. In all honesty I can spin just as well with the KJH, the TB ZLF, a Viscaria, or my V+ or Spin Machine. It does take slightly different technique with the blades that have a harder top ply. And for me, I just like the big ball feel of the softer blades. But....I am confident I can feel the differences.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

In the end, whatever equipment you use, you will adjust to the equipment and you will sort out the technique to use to get certain things out of that equipment that may be slightly different than with other equipment. But in the long run, the equipment you use does not really matter that much except in that you use it, train with it, learn how to get the most out of it, and develop technique with it that words for you and your game.

 

[NDH]

One thing I will say, what a player feels really depends on that player.

I admit that I am a weird character. I am a yoga teacher, I have been practicing and teaching for decades. From my perspective, a central part of that practice is FEELING what you are doing.

You anomaly, you……. 😂

Whilst my comments are usually big ol’ generalisations (because I wouldn’t have enough time or patience to map out every scenario), I think the people who are:

1. Very in tune with the feeling of a TT blade…
2. Skilful enough to understand what feels different…
3. Geeky enough to know the materials and the impact they can have…

Are very much the 0.00001%.

But, they would likely reside here, so this place is as good as any I guess! 😂

Oh, and so people don’t think I’m ignoring Dipak, I sent him a private message with my birth certificate, passport and a selfie video! 😂

 

[Deep74]

You anomaly, you……. 😂

Whilst my comments are usually big ol’ generalisations (because I wouldn’t have enough time or patience to map out every scenario), I think the people who are:

1. Very in tune with the feeling of a TT blade…
2. Skilful enough to understand what feels different…
3. Geeky enough to know the materials and the impact they can have…

Are very much the 0.00001%.

But, they would likely reside here, so this place is as good as any I guess! 😂

Oh, and so people don’t think I’m ignoring Dipak, I sent him a private message with my birth certificate, passport and a selfie video! 😂

You certainly did and I responded with my CV 😂😂😂