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Technique advice for me
- Thread starter dingyibvs
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Welcome! Yes, that's on my list for sure. The loop drive motion is a new one, that's why I'm practicing it first. I'll for sure be practicing some brush loops as well, though I've got that motion figured out a bit better. I'll post a video of a combined loop vs backspin training soon, which will have half-long balls that require brushing, high ones that can be loop killed, and medium ones that can be loop driven, as well as some BH ones and really short ones that'd be flicked
Thanks, I like to keep an open mind so I'll give each motion a try and see what works for me. I'm just developing this shot so this would be the best time to experiment! I'm still keeping my old motion too, it's just really effective when the ball is short but a bit high or slow. When it's long and fast though, I think this new looping motion will work better.
I totally agree with you about not being rigid re: TT. No rule is absolute, there's more than one way to do just about everything. I just need to find out what works for me.
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Yep you need both (slow loop and the loopkill) in matches and selecting your shots wisely to reduce the amount of unforced errors. There's no single 1 stroke that fits all balls... Also with your explosiveness, if you focus it into spin production you'll reduce your unforced errors significantly and also overwhelm most defences just from the sheer amount of spin. If you want to drive blockers insane you can also train up an fake opening loop where you lift the ball and then do a fake roll - if they don't have a keen eye they're almost sure to dump it into the net lol.
If the backspin is like from most robots(unatural much) then this is good!
I think you can try:
- Maybe start the stroke a little earlier. If you come too close the backpin will bite a lot.
- Hit the ball more in front of the body at the forehand opening. I think you lose power by hitting almost behind your body and will have a hard ball to catch the next ball if it goes to the backhand.
keep up the hard work.
I think you can try:
- Maybe start the stroke a little earlier. If you come too close the backpin will bite a lot.
- Hit the ball more in front of the body at the forehand opening. I think you lose power by hitting almost behind your body and will have a hard ball to catch the next ball if it goes to the backhand.
keep up the hard work.
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I miss those old days where my coach would feed me long or out of table underspin and I can loop kill them. These days, he give those crazy half long that makes me hesitate, whether to push ( not allowed by coach ) or loop. These crazy short underspin tend to come just an inch or two off the table. These are the ones that scares me a lot. These type of loops you cannot generate full arm swing for obvious reason, but are forced to use your legs ( power from the ground ) and wrist and fingers. Darn it! Table tennis is dangerous sports for the fingers. I should have just play pickle-ball.
p/s Not sure why but these short half-long underspins are getting more and more common in my game-play. Not sure if this is the trend these days or they are just my club-mates adapting to me. I HATE HALF-LONG UNDERSPIN BALLS!
p/s/s: There is this exercise which he does with me where he will roll a TT ball slowly towards the edge of the table and I must spin / loop the ball over the net. I HATE THIS EXERCISE!
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Gozo, keep trying to drive! It's a lot more satisfying than brush looping
Quality half long pushes are pretty difficult to execute, they need to be both half-long and low, absent either and you can drive the crap out of it! When it's short or half long but high (as in higher than the net) I use my old form to drive it. It's a very forward kicking move and the nice thing about it is that if you don't get great contact it just ends up being a super spinny brush loop, so you still land the shot and it's still very difficult to return.
So I had another practice session today, tried to make some adjustments to my stroke. I think I like using a bit less hip rotation, it does help with recovery a bit. Also, in watching ML play I noticed that he dips his right shoulder a lot more than me, while I squat more than him. So I tried his method out and I liked it quite a bit. What it does is that it allows you to engage your left oblique and back more during the forward swing. Recruiting another large muscle can't be a bad thing. This allows the legs to lift a bit less, particularly against backspins, and kick right to left (or forward if you're going for the kill) more. This method allows maximal engagement of all 3 sections of your core, your legs, your hips, and your abdomen/back.
I finished my session practicing this using some weights as well. I learned it from @blahness and it's super helpful. Basically I would hold a barbell with a small weight on one end, then try to do the looping motion with my core. My arms can't really move since they're holding the barbell, so I basically try to move the weight in the same path as a racket using only my core. I think one of the reasons power generation from TT is not as natural is because of how light the racket and ball are. When you're using weights, you really need to engage your core to generate any speed. I really felt the left oblique/back engagement with this form, and now I feel like I get a good workout of my entire core after doing this exercise. That must mean it's pretty close to being the best form possible.
Thus, I think this is gonna be the form I'm gonna settle on. It's very transferable between looping backspins and topspins. You just need to dip your legs and shoulder a bit more for backspins, you'll naturally end up with a more up moving forward swing when you do that. The changes aren't too big, so I'll post my next video when I start doing more complex exercises.
For the rest of the week I'll focus on setting this new motion. It's hard to execute all the change in every shot right now. I'm forgetting to loosen up the swing in one stroke, then forget to turn my hip more in another, then forget to kick to the right a bit more with my legs, then forget to dip my right shoulder and pull up with my oblique/back. It'll take a few practice sessions to make sure I'm using the right form for every shot. When that happens, I will have completed step 1 of this phase of my training. I will then move on to step two where I'll do more random location exercises so I can execute the new form even when moving.
Tomorrow I'll probably take a break from training and play at the club. I'll try to execute the new form in some unofficial matches. It won't go well, I'm sure, but it'll let me know better where the deficiencies are. Plus, training is just so tiring, I need a break and have some fun
I finished my session practicing this using some weights as well. I learned it from @blahness and it's super helpful. Basically I would hold a barbell with a small weight on one end, then try to do the looping motion with my core. My arms can't really move since they're holding the barbell, so I basically try to move the weight in the same path as a racket using only my core. I think one of the reasons power generation from TT is not as natural is because of how light the racket and ball are. When you're using weights, you really need to engage your core to generate any speed. I really felt the left oblique/back engagement with this form, and now I feel like I get a good workout of my entire core after doing this exercise. That must mean it's pretty close to being the best form possible.
Thus, I think this is gonna be the form I'm gonna settle on. It's very transferable between looping backspins and topspins. You just need to dip your legs and shoulder a bit more for backspins, you'll naturally end up with a more up moving forward swing when you do that. The changes aren't too big, so I'll post my next video when I start doing more complex exercises.
For the rest of the week I'll focus on setting this new motion. It's hard to execute all the change in every shot right now. I'm forgetting to loosen up the swing in one stroke, then forget to turn my hip more in another, then forget to kick to the right a bit more with my legs, then forget to dip my right shoulder and pull up with my oblique/back. It'll take a few practice sessions to make sure I'm using the right form for every shot. When that happens, I will have completed step 1 of this phase of my training. I will then move on to step two where I'll do more random location exercises so I can execute the new form even when moving.
Tomorrow I'll probably take a break from training and play at the club. I'll try to execute the new form in some unofficial matches. It won't go well, I'm sure, but it'll let me know better where the deficiencies are. Plus, training is just so tiring, I need a break and have some fun
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HI DINGYIBUS
first I agree that the backspin ball yr robot provides is unrealistic.
when I first setup my robot to feed backspin I remember the first 20 balls I looped under the table! Humiliating! However the answer was to adjust my technique not make the test easier. Eventually I learned to respect chop and improve my timing.
You just look tight trying to 'muscle' the ball over. You are putting in huge effort but I seems misdirected
How tight is your grip? it all starts there And notice how with yr fh as yr legs drive yr shoulder goes up, but the shoulder joint is locked and does not allow the arm to swing up
grip thoughts: "hold the bat as though its a little bird you want to keep but not injure"
try playing fh topspin with yr fingers flat on the bh rubber (not holding the handle at all) this should help to loosen you up and open yr eyes a bit.
Relaxed movement exercise. This is to illustrate how the legs should drive the arms:
Hi again Dingyibus
you are a fast worker
I saw your later attempts and you seem to have improved the working of the shoulder joint.
However you still look tense and tight in your grip.
You are very enthusiastic and this in itself can lead to problems:-
Coach : "the legs drive the arms"
Pupil: "I'll show him the best leg drive ever!"
I find many of my pupils when they become aware of Power from the ground, body rotation. they unfortunately feel the need to show commitment by exaggerating Power and body rotation such that errors come from swinging across the ball for instance.
good strokes need to be powerful at times, but also they need to be smaller and quicker sometimes and part of yr development should be aimed at recovery and transition. especially recovery. once the ball is gone the elbow should be pulling the racket into a fresh ready position
You mentioned that the training is made harder by having to pay attention what different body parts have to do.
I would say that if you focus on "throwing your weight around in a good way" you will find a lot of those problem are handled at a subconscious level, and if you try to consciously microcontrol your technique the result will stiffness injury
and difficulty in reacting to the ball
first I agree that the backspin ball yr robot provides is unrealistic.
when I first setup my robot to feed backspin I remember the first 20 balls I looped under the table! Humiliating! However the answer was to adjust my technique not make the test easier. Eventually I learned to respect chop and improve my timing.
You just look tight trying to 'muscle' the ball over. You are putting in huge effort but I seems misdirected
How tight is your grip? it all starts there And notice how with yr fh as yr legs drive yr shoulder goes up, but the shoulder joint is locked and does not allow the arm to swing up
grip thoughts: "hold the bat as though its a little bird you want to keep but not injure"
try playing fh topspin with yr fingers flat on the bh rubber (not holding the handle at all) this should help to loosen you up and open yr eyes a bit.
Relaxed movement exercise. This is to illustrate how the legs should drive the arms:
- stand at ease with arms hanging down such that a partner might be able to swing yr arms about with no resistance from you
- next swing yr loosely hanging arm from the shoulder without moving the rest of yr body.then rest.
- now with yr arms hanging loose again try to get your relaxed arms to move by rocking your weight from one foot to the other. With a bit of experiment you can get yr arms to swing just by shifting yr weight from front to back foot.
- CONGRATULATIONS! you are experiencing the basis for efficient swing mechanics in sports!
now spend quite a lot of time in mirror and shadow play teaching yourself to throw your weight around and make yr arm a relaxed whip driven by your legs
Hi again Dingyibus
you are a fast worker
I saw your later attempts and you seem to have improved the working of the shoulder joint.
However you still look tense and tight in your grip.
You are very enthusiastic and this in itself can lead to problems:-
Coach : "the legs drive the arms"
Pupil: "I'll show him the best leg drive ever!"
I find many of my pupils when they become aware of Power from the ground, body rotation. they unfortunately feel the need to show commitment by exaggerating Power and body rotation such that errors come from swinging across the ball for instance.
good strokes need to be powerful at times, but also they need to be smaller and quicker sometimes and part of yr development should be aimed at recovery and transition. especially recovery. once the ball is gone the elbow should be pulling the racket into a fresh ready position
You mentioned that the training is made harder by having to pay attention what different body parts have to do.
I would say that if you focus on "throwing your weight around in a good way" you will find a lot of those problem are handled at a subconscious level, and if you try to consciously microcontrol your technique the result will stiffness injury
and difficulty in reacting to the ball
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Agree, when we talk about finishing balls even best of the best Chinese pros, using wider powershots. Had an little bit of discussion about it with my coach as well, few days ago. About shorter or wider moves, and a shoulder position. In game scenarios they are different from training drills. Drills designed to make us more consistent, when in real game its better to just a loop kill with power some balls, other better to play safe. In my opinion, when shoulder go up a bit, there is an opportunity for bigger, more powerful stroke. And there is a place and time for that in match. Coach telling me almost the opposite - like its a big of a mistake. So i recorded how Ma and Fan doing topspins on block in slow-motion, and showing it to my coach - to prove my point. But again those are super duper pros, and we mere mortals, should not always try to emulate them. Its okay to change shoulder elbow position to adjust for different balls, you should just know, why exactly you doing it
My grip is pretty loose, but I use the opposite approach with the grip on the FH side. I hold the handle with my palm and 3 fingers, but relax the thumb and index finger. I only tighten those 2 fingers right as contact is made. I hold it loose enough to allow for easier FH/BH grip transition, as I hold my racket slightly lower on the handle on the FH side. During the backswing the racket will try to fly out of my hand so it naturally moves up a bit. My pinky and palm with the flared handle is what prevents it actually flying out of my hand, and my other two fingers prevent it from moving sideways in my hand.
When transitioning to BH I apply a bit of pressure with my index finger to move the racket back down so my thumb can get solidly onto the FH rubber, ready to apply pressure right before contact. This again requires a fairly loose grip. I believe this is the right way to grip the racket, because it's consistent with all other motions. All muscles activate sequentially from legs to hips to waist to shoulder to arm to wrist and finally fingers. The fingers that affect the shot are the thumb and the index finger, so IMO they should stay as loose as possible until right before contact.
My shoulder and arm are pretty loose as well. They're completely relaxed during the initial part of the forward swing, at least in the latest video. I think I just look stiff because my muscles make me less flexible than most. I mean, I can't even scratch most of my back
As for the robot settings, what's unrealistic about it? I did set it a bit high as it was my first time practicing this shot, but today I set it as low as possible and it was a pretty easy transition. It's actually easier to perform the new shot with it being lower. When it's higher like that my old form works a bit better as it's a bit of more direct shot. I also did some BH/FH location variations today as well, and it worked better than I expected. I was driving with the new form pretty naturally, and I think using my upper body to lift rather than entirely relying on my legs actually really helped. I think maybe it's because in addition to lifting my shoulder up, my oblique/back muscles also rotate my upper body, so it adds a bit of extra forward motion to my swing, which tends to make loop drives easier.
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In yr last vid the rotation is over emphasised I think you could benefit from having yr flow to ready position rather than jerking to a stop over yr left shoulder. Smooth is the name of the game. The point about whip is that the tip of the whip is so much faster than rest. Good timing demands that the moving parts should be at optimum at contact with the ball rather than earlier, otherwise it's a waste. Playing slower could allow you to synchronise your motions with the moment of contact. THAT IS KEY.My grip is pretty loose, but I use the opposite approach with the grip on the FH side. I hold the handle with my palm and 3 fingers, but relax the thumb and index finger. I only tighten those 2 fingers right as contact is made. I hold it loose enough to allow for easier FH/BH grip transition, as I hold my racket slightly lower on the handle on the FH side. During the backswing the racket will try to fly out of my hand so it naturally moves up a bit. My pinky and palm with the flared handle is what prevents it actually flying out of my hand, and my other two fingers prevent it from moving sideways in my hand.
When transitioning to BH I apply a bit of pressure with my index finger to move the racket back down so my thumb can get solidly onto the FH rubber, ready to apply pressure right before contact. This again requires a fairly loose grip. I believe this is the right way to grip the racket, because it's consistent with all other motions. All muscles activate sequentially from legs to hips to waist to shoulder to arm to wrist and finally fingers. The fingers that affect the shot are the thumb and the index finger, so IMO they should stay as loose as possible until right before contact.
My shoulder and arm are pretty loose as well. They're completely relaxed during the initial part of the forward swing, at least in the latest video. I think I just look stiff because my muscles make me less flexible than most. I mean, I can't even scratch most of my back
As for the robot settings, what's unrealistic about it? I did set it a bit high as it was my first time practicing this shot, but today I set it as low as possible and it was a pretty easy transition. It's actually easier to perform the new shot with it being lower. When it's higher like that my old form works a bit better as it's a bit of more direct shot. I also did some BH/FH location variations today as well, and it worked better than I expected. I was driving with the new form pretty naturally, and I think using my upper body to lift rather than entirely relying on my legs actually really helped. I think maybe it's because in addition to lifting my shoulder up, my oblique/back muscles also rotate my upper body, so it adds a bit of extra forward motion to my swing, which tends to make loop drives easier.
Glad to hear your grip is soft but yr swing should still be looser. Do you ever try turning off the power and just playing say 150 balls continuously so that you can think about it more. Also if yr robot could send alternate balls 18 inches apart that would help you to develop yr ability to get behind the line of the ball and unstick your feet a bit which are looking a bit planted
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Apologies if I'm covering old ground (just ignore me if I am).
General FH and BH technique is solid - Like Carl said, it would be really interesting to see you playing a match, as I feel we'd get to see the real you (and not the you vs a robot).
On this video.... I can't really take much from it to be honest.
You are hitting them as if they are 1 shot winners - If the ball comes back, you won't be in position (and you don't seem to be expecting the ball to come back - You are just waiting for the next feed).
Given how often the ball *will* come back at a good level, it'll also not come back exactly where you are set up - So whilst it's nice to know you have that shot if you need it, I'm not sure it's the best thing to practice on your FH (as it's not a shot you'll play very much in a match at all).
I'm wary to comment too much on technique, as I've been taught, and play, with a "European" technique, vs your preference of a "Chinese style" technique.
That being said, I still think you are overhitting, with your right arm coming too far across your body.
Great power - But if it does come back, you are absolutely stuck!
Other than that, great to see another video thread - Keep up the good work.
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That's the danger of using robots, you are inadvertently being conditioned to wait for feed.
I was doing only rebounding board for a year plus during the Covid Pandemic lockdown.
I was conditioned to only loop long balls, its repercussion still being felt to this day.
I was doing only rebounding board for a year plus during the Covid Pandemic lockdown.
I was conditioned to only loop long balls, its repercussion still being felt to this day.
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The ability to loop kill easy balls is very important, but if you truly want to make changes to your base technique, practicing loop kills is not what I would recommend. Like why would you ever start from one of the most difficult shots? To me it would make sense to start from the simplest strokes which are much easier for the body to get used to. This is because I believe that all different strokes are connected at some level, so it would be much easier to transfer the technique to more demanding shots afterwards when you have already developed some of the required muscle memory. Developing good technique to the level where it can be used in matches requires a lot of time and dedication, and I have found that slowing down to at least some extent is really beneficial. This doesn't mean that you should never try to push the limits of your execution, but you should at least know your limits beforehand.
Obviously I can’t know how you train from a single one minute video, but I just wanted to make the point.
It is also important to pay attention to how you are reacting to the incoming ball and how much you need to anticipate when you train. Doing the strokes in a realistic game sequence is always different because you need to move and shift your balance which affects your next move and so on.
Obviously I can’t know how you train from a single one minute video, but I just wanted to make the point.
It is also important to pay attention to how you are reacting to the incoming ball and how much you need to anticipate when you train. Doing the strokes in a realistic game sequence is always different because you need to move and shift your balance which affects your next move and so on.
Oh yeah, I shadow train in front of a mirror quite often. I also do 15 or so reps per set with weights to make sure I know how to use the core properly to generate power.
As for varying the location of thrle ball, slow your horses! This drill isn't meant to prepare me for game situations, it's only meant to demonstrate technique. It was my first time practicing the new technique, I wanted to make sure I get the form right first. I'll continue to practice mainly single location for a few more sessions, then start adding variations (left/right, length, speed, etc.) all to the FH, then multiple locations with both FH/BH mixed in, and lastly both FH/BH with varying pace. One step at a time!
I agree rotation is overemphasized there, I decided to do a little less of it in yesterday's session. I think it helps with recovery a bit and the movement felt a bit more natural.
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Dingyibus, the 2 positions wasn't about game situations, just making the technique more complete. Its more work but it ensures everything is on a sound basis.
IMO developing technique whether kill or basic fh goes better if you mix hitting from 1 spot with 2 position whether fhfh or bhfh.
its because with 2 positions means recovery and transition will be built into the stroke.
Btw have you completed yr basic fh development, or will you do it after the kill shot?
IMO developing technique whether kill or basic fh goes better if you mix hitting from 1 spot with 2 position whether fhfh or bhfh.
its because with 2 positions means recovery and transition will be built into the stroke.
Btw have you completed yr basic fh development, or will you do it after the kill shot?
Oh yeah, that's why you gotta program more realism into your drills if your robot can do it. Once I get the form down I'll progressively add a lot of variations to the balls in terms of location, length, speed, and pace.
Hmm, it's a shot I'd use fairly often though. Maybe you're playing at a much higher level, but a lot of the pushes I get are drivable. You're right though that I need to prepare for the next shot. That's the reason I started training the new technique. My old one involved kicking the right foot forward, and as Timo Boll mentioned in his video for looping backspins, you can do that but it better be for a winner. This allows me to recover much quicker.Apologies if I'm covering old ground (just ignore me if I am).
General FH and BH technique is solid - Like Carl said, it would be really interesting to see you playing a match, as I feel we'd get to see the real you (and not the you vs a robot).
On this video.... I can't really take much from it to be honest.
You are hitting them as if they are 1 shot winners - If the ball comes back, you won't be in position (and you don't seem to be expecting the ball to come back - You are just waiting for the next feed).
Given how often the ball *will* come back at a good level, it'll also not come back exactly where you are set up - So whilst it's nice to know you have that shot if you need it, I'm not sure it's the best thing to practice on your FH (as it's not a shot you'll play very much in a match at all).
I'm wary to comment too much on technique, as I've been taught, and play, with a "European" technique, vs your preference of a "Chinese style" technique.
That being said, I still think you are overhitting, with your right arm coming too far across your body.
Great power - But if it does come back, you are absolutely stuck!
Other than that, great to see another video thread - Keep up the good work.
Oh I do start with the easier strokes. I do a few hundred loops against moderate speed/spin topspins (warm-up level balls) to start each session. I only posted this video because I have a previous one for people to compare to. Like you said, all the strokes are connected at some level, so I can use the feedback for this stroke for my other strokes as well. I'd like to emphasize again that that was the first full day of my FH practice session, the focus is simply to develop a good form. Realism in training will come later.
Also, isn't killing an easy ball a rather basic shot? I mean, that's one of the first balls you encounter, a killable ball, when you start playing TT, no? I'd consider brush looping a half-long ball to be harder to master.
I'm doing both at the same time. I usually start off the practice session with 100-150 service practices. Since I'm focusing on FH right now I then do maybe 2-300 basic FH vs moderate speed/spin topspin shots, ranging from close to the table countering to looping. Then I move on to backspin loop drives and brush loops, maybe 150-200 total. This take quite a bit of time as I'm recording, then reviewing my form, then go back to practice quite often. I take some short water breaks in between, and sometimes watching instructional videos during those breaks.
I usually then do some BH drills to give my FH a break, then after that it depends on my what I figure I need to work on. Yesterday for example I found that I started using my hips less as the practice went on, so I went back to do some more basic FH drills with a focus on rotating my hips. I then adjusted my waist usage a bit to dip my shoulder more, and used that new form to do some more FH drive vs backspin and FH counter loop practices. I also did some half-long drills. I finished the session with some multi-location FH loops and BH loops, but found that my form isn't set enough to do the FH one yet.
IMO your suggestion is rushing things a bit. You need to be able to execute a stroke from one spot first before you can move on to multiple spots. Keep in mind that I've only had 2 sessions practicing the new form and I've only decided to set the form yesterday. Multi-location is certainly within the plan, but I'm not ready for it yet.
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