Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[JeffM]

Injury update:

It is now about 6 days after the initial injury.

It has gotten better than day 1 post, as I am now able to cough/ sneeze without the fear of a stab in my chest wall. But it is not pain free.

I tried going to gym last night and the night before. The night before last night, I tried doing my usual bicep curls and a few push ups on the bench but the pushups didn't feel right, so I stopped. I just did the usual leg exercises + cardio. Last night I went again and I skipped all upper body stuff, went straight for the leg exercises:
leg extension
kettledumbell squats
leg curl
calf machine
bike

I actually found some discomfort when I was trying to do the kettledumbell squats, the pain is not from my legs but around chest wall. I still did the whole thing. Then I got home, and I noticed the chest wall pain is worsened.

Quite discouraging, as I can feel my legs are at my peak now, but due to this silly injury, I have to stop so many exercises, including TT.

I plan to skip tonight to avoid more injury then try go to gym tmr again but maybe skipping out on the kettledumbell squats to see if my chest wall won't be aggravated, then maybe at a later date, drop the kettledumbell weights all the way down and see how I go.

 

[blahness]

It is hard to hit sidespin loops from the middle of the table, admittedly fading from the backhand is annoying, but it is usually a different animal from a forehand hook. That said you do seem to have solutions and some are promising. But avoid creating an angle and refusing to cover it. If you send someone wide with a hooking shot. you need to recover to covet the middle of where you sent the ball to unless you tried to win the point outright. This is usually what causes this kind of trouble. Make the opponent consistently play to the shorter side of the table before respecting their ability to do so. But I suspect you will develop solutions to it fairly soon.

What he's doing on the FH isn't even a loop but a kinda slap counter where he borrows my spin and hooks the ball out wide - I noticed Adriana Diaz does the same kind of shots from time to time. He keeps his racket high and there's barely any backswing. Tbh I haven't seen a lot of this kind of ridiculous strokes with inverted rubbers lol.

 

[NextLevel]

What he's doing on the FH isn't even a loop but a kinda slap counter where he borrows my spin and hooks the ball out wide - I noticed Adriana Diaz does the same kind of shots from time to time. He keeps his racket high and there's barely any backswing. Tbh I haven't seen a lot of this kind of ridiculous strokes with inverted rubbers lol.

The thing is that side of the ball contact makes heavy spin easier to control so he is likely relying heavily on your incoming topspin. Of course, you have options to decide his game within your framework. The assumption of course is that he isn't inherently a good player. I have played lots of good players with these weird technical odd shots but they were just better players than I was, even if I avoided this sequence they were either more consistent or I would lose to something else. But since you said he can't handle your forehand qualify, you can raise your backhand quality with a heavier serve assuming he will give a decent push and you can loop the return. A lot of spinny loop quality is tied to the serve that came before it.

 

[dingyibvs]

Injury update:

It is now about 6 days after the initial injury.

It has gotten better than day 1 post, as I am now able to cough/ sneeze without the fear of a stab in my chest wall. But it is not pain free.

I tried going to gym last night and the night before. The night before last night, I tried doing my usual bicep curls and a few push ups on the bench but the pushups didn't feel right, so I stopped. I just did the usual leg exercises + cardio. Last night I went again and I skipped all upper body stuff, went straight for the leg exercises:
leg extension
kettledumbell squats
leg curl
calf machine
bike

I actually found some discomfort when I was trying to do the kettledumbell squats, the pain is not from my legs but around chest wall. I still did the whole thing. Then I got home, and I noticed the chest wall pain is worsened.

Quite discouraging, as I can feel my legs are at my peak now, but due to this silly injury, I have to stop so many exercises, including TT.

I plan to skip tonight to avoid more injury then try go to gym tmr again but maybe skipping out on the kettledumbell squats to see if my chest wall won't be aggravated, then maybe at a later date, drop the kettledumbell weights all the way down and see how I go.

Yes, skip tonight, ice the chest, maybe take 400-600mg Ibuprofen or equivalent NSAID after dinner. Tomorrow you'll feel better, then go back to exercising. You SHOULD feel the pain worsen after a workout, just rest, ice, and maybe use an anti-inflammatory med like Ibuprofen. As long as you keep exercising after the pain subsides, for me it's usually by the 3rd day (so skip a day for rest), then your injury will heal rapidly.

I wouldn't do pushups BTW, if squats are enough to activate those muscles then that'd be sufficient. You just need to activate it to the point of feeling a bit of pain, you don't need to specifically work it out. If you're gonna work it out specifically, I'd do something like bench press where you can control the weight being lifted.

 

[dingyibvs]

Give it a shot you might surprise yourself. In fact, more and more players are punch blocking from behind the table in rallies, my practice partner hits quite a few in matches and it is more annoying than topspin to br honest. The first principle of TT practice is to test things out, avoid presupposing the result without some practice.

If the ball is high enough, punch is probably reasonable, but if it's not very high then it's a low percentage shot. I'll need to practice the punch block more, as I don't really have a way of punishing high loops to my BH yet. I usually just try to block it softly, then seek an opportunity to get a power loop in, preferably by the FH.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yeah I don't see the pros handling it well either 😂😂😂 This is such a killer shot if it lands at high percentages....

Even middle or FH doesn't stop him from executing this sidespin flathit.... I think the only way I avoid this is if I loop it really wide to his BH (ball exiting the sides) but tbh this has some risks too because there's not that much table to aim for.

I guess I could also mix in a few of my fake loops too and vary the spin of the loop to prevent him from being so confident in the flat hit.

BTW, I've been trying to figure out how to use my body more on my BH side, particularly when it comes to looping backspins, and I think I found out what I was doing wrong. I think it was the same issue as on my FH side previously, that there's a dyssynchrony between my arm movement and my body movement. While my body is rotating left to right, my arm is going more down to up.

In the same vein, the reason I found the "convex" BH loop to allow me more body usage is because when you supinate your forearm during the backspin, it sort of naturally lifts your racket while pulls down your elbow and shoulder. With the "concave" BH loop, my racket naturally drops while my elbow rises, pulling up my shoulder. Try it, it's almost impossible to lift your elbow with a "convex" backswing. So what this does is that when I attempt a "convex" BH loop, due to the shoulder being pulled down, my body has a bit more down to up motion, while my racket is higher up so it gets more of a left to right motion, thus synchronizing the two movements.

I can now use my normal "concave" BH loop by not dropping my racket as much (to upper thigh rather than lower thigh as before) and dropping my shoulder a bit more, and the easiest way to do that is, as you mentioned, use the body movement to guide the backswing. Of course, on the BH side you can't quite rotate your body as much as on the FH side, so the arm still has to do a lot of the backswing, but with the body as the guide they'd be rotating along the same plane for backswing which also helps ensure that they stay in the same plane for the forward swing as well.

 

[blahness]

Yes, skip tonight, ice the chest, maybe take 400-600mg Ibuprofen or equivalent NSAID after dinner. Tomorrow you'll feel better, then go back to exercising. You SHOULD feel the pain worsen after a workout, just rest, ice, and maybe use an anti-inflammatory med like Ibuprofen. As long as you keep exercising after the pain subsides, for me it's usually by the 3rd day (so skip a day for rest), then your injury will heal rapidly.

I wouldn't do pushups BTW, if squats are enough to activate those muscles then that'd be sufficient. You just need to activate it to the point of feeling a bit of pain, you don't need to specifically work it out. If you're gonna work it out specifically, I'd do something like bench press where you can control the weight being lifted.

It sounds a bit like sternum pain from what he described. I used to have them when I was doing dips, it took quite a while to get the sternum to recover and get stronger. From what I know it might not be a muscular thing which usually takes a much shorter time to recover..

It's probably because he changed his technique to the correct one where the sternum gets loaded up more, however the sternum hasn't had the chance to build up strength slowly. Basically any time you change technique etc you have to start from much lighter weights to avoid this kind of scenario.

 

[dingyibvs]

It sounds a bit like sternum pain from what he described. I used to have them when I was doing dips, it took quite a while to get the sternum to recover and get stronger. From what I know it might not be a muscular thing which usually takes a much shorter time to recover..

It's probably because he changed his technique to the correct one where the sternum gets loaded up more, however the sternum hasn't had the chance to build up strength slowly. Basically any time you change technique etc you have to start from much lighter weights to avoid this kind of scenario.

I think he said it happened during bench press when he tried to push his limits, and he went to see a physical therapist who diagnosed it as a serratia anterior injury.

 

[blahness]

BTW, I've been trying to figure out how to use my body more on my BH side, particularly when it comes to looping backspins, and I think I found out what I was doing wrong. I think it was the same issue as on my FH side previously, that there's a dyssynchrony between my arm movement and my body movement. While my body is rotating left to right, my arm is going more down to up.

In the same vein, the reason I found the "convex" BH loop to allow me more body usage is because when you supinate your forearm during the backspin, it sort of naturally lifts your racket while pulls down your elbow and shoulder. With the "concave" BH loop, my racket naturally drops while my elbow rises, pulling up my shoulder. Try it, it's almost impossible to lift your elbow with a "convex" backswing. So what this does is that when I attempt a "convex" BH loop, due to the shoulder being pulled down, my body has a bit more down to up motion, while my racket is higher up so it gets more of a left to right motion, thus synchronizing the two movements.

I can now use my normal "concave" BH loop by not dropping my racket as much (to upper thigh rather than lower thigh as before) and dropping my shoulder a bit more, and the easiest way to do that is, as you mentioned, use the body movement to guide the backswing. Of course, on the BH side you can't quite rotate your body as much as on the FH side, so the arm still has to do a lot of the backswing, but with the body as the guide they'd be rotating along the same plane for backswing which also helps ensure that they stay in the same plane for the forward swing as well.

Yes, you've got the gist of the modern BH where you don't use the hand to drop the racket anywhere as low as the thigh but more towards the hip level even against heavy backspin. The way to get low is using the legs and hips, not the hand. This is because it takes time to drop the racket low - and it's much more consistent to use the body rather than the arm.

I think you're on the right track with the use of the body. Though, on the last statement I would still challenge it, you can actually minimise arm movement all the way to close to nothing for the backswing. Even with hip rotation I think it's easy to get at least 45 degrees if you bring your right knee forward. This already provides quite a bit of room to engage the hips for power.

 

[JeffM]

It sounds a bit like sternum pain from what he described. I used to have them when I was doing dips, it took quite a while to get the sternum to recover and get stronger. From what I know it might not be a muscular thing which usually takes a much shorter time to recover..

It's probably because he changed his technique to the correct one where the sternum gets loaded up more, however the sternum hasn't had the chance to build up strength slowly. Basically any time you change technique etc you have to start from much lighter weights to avoid this kind of scenario.

Yeah I don't think it is a sternum injury as the sternum is right in the centre, whereas the pain that I am feeling is more to the side, lateral to the nipple area, deep inside. The physio said it is most likely serratia anterior strain, but could be intercostal muscle injury too.

Don't think I will be doing anything upper body related until this is sorted.. Even may have to drop the squat weight to avoid injuring that area again tmr.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yes, you've got the gist of the modern BH where you don't use the hand to drop the racket anywhere as low as the thigh but more towards the hip level even against heavy backspin. The way to get low is using the legs and hips, not the hand. This is because it takes time to drop the racket low - and it's much more consistent to use the body rather than the arm.

I think you're on the right track with the use of the body. Though, on the last statement I would still challenge it, you can actually minimise arm movement all the way to close to nothing for the backswing. Even with hip rotation I think it's easy to get at least 45 degrees if you bring your right knee forward. This already provides quite a bit of room to engage the hips for power.

The issue is that my ready position is with my elbow tucked to the side, the blade's tip pointing mostly forward. From this position, to get into a FH backswing I just need to relax my elbow, let the arm drop, and let my body do the backswing. My arm does essentially nothing during the backswing except for very quick close to the table counters when I need to really speed up the swing. To get into a BH backswing from that position, however, I'd need to actively tuck my racket in and push my elbow forward.

You can't have a ready position where you need to do close to nothing for both the FH and BH backswing, and I chose to favor the FH for many obvious reasons.

 

[Richie]

I was at the Swedish national champs yesterday and today, there were some epic games. Truls is just too strong. Just some out of this world serve and receive, deception in the open game, power and feeling. It truly looks and feels alien to me to be able to play like that.

PS. you can see the TTD team on the other side, I think they're here to also record some friendly match against a Swedish team.

 

[Der_Echte]

Stellan told me at his camp yesterday I had efficient movement to the BH and to the FH... I almost had orange juice running out my nose over that... I told Stellan that when I started TT as a lower player, I heard that top players move efficiently and do not waste motion... and that I would never become a top player... to be accused of that was comical, but I did get better and better executed footwork got me in position to make shots and win points.

 

[blahness]

The issue is that my ready position is with my elbow tucked to the side, the blade's tip pointing mostly forward. From this position, to get into a FH backswing I just need to relax my elbow, let the arm drop, and let my body do the backswing. My arm does essentially nothing during the backswing except for very quick close to the table counters when I need to really speed up the swing. To get into a BH backswing from that position, however, I'd need to actively tuck my racket in and push my elbow forward.

You can't have a ready position where you need to do close to nothing for both the FH and BH backswing, and I chose to favor the FH for many obvious reasons.

For me I guess I don't push the elbow forward for the BH, I personally play BHs with the elbow quite close to the body relatively, it makes for easier BH-FH transition if the elbow positions are similar.

 

[NextLevel]

The issue is that my ready position is with my elbow tucked to the side, the blade's tip pointing mostly forward. From this position, to get into a FH backswing I just need to relax my elbow, let the arm drop, and let my body do the backswing. My arm does essentially nothing during the backswing except for very quick close to the table counters when I need to really speed up the swing. To get into a BH backswing from that position, however, I'd need to actively tuck my racket in and push my elbow forward.

You can't have a ready position where you need to do close to nothing for both the FH and BH backswing, and I chose to favor the FH for many obvious reasons.

I think you can (sit on the backhand since it is more arm driven and tuck the elbow back in es part of the forehand backswing) but it doesnt really matter. The most important thing is to have patterns that make you ready for the shots you intend to play once you anticipate them. I think when you are forced to implement backhand crossover footwork, that's when everyone develops their final form backhand.

When you hit the backhand with a bow and thrust from the legs and the forehand with a twist and mild torso fold, it tends to take most of the pressure off the arm movements

 

[dingyibvs]

I think you can (sit on the backhand since it is more arm driven and tuck the elbow back in es part of the forehand backswing) but it doesnt really matter. The most important thing is to have patterns that make you ready for the shots you intend to play once you anticipate them. I think when you are forced to implement backhand crossover footwork, that's when everyone develops their final form backhand.

What do you mean by BH crossover footwork?

 

[NextLevel]

What do you mean by BH crossover footwork?

When you have crossed over to he forehand side and then a ball is played to your backhand and you have to hit it while moving back into the backhand corner. Unless you hand switch you have to to use backhand cross footwork and position your elbow properly relative to the ball. Since you arent square to the ball, it can be eye opening.

 

[NextLevel]

I was at the Swedish national champs yesterday and today, there were some epic games. Truls is just too strong. Just some out of this world serve and receive, deception in the open game, power and feeling. It truly looks and feels alien to me to be able to play like that.

PS. you can see the TTD team on the other side, I think they're here to also record some friendly match against a Swedish team.

Thanks for sharing. Ttlondon2012 posted some Kallberg and Truls highlight videos throughout the tournament. What happened to Karlsson and Falck? Truls has an interesting semifinal vs Persson but not sure who Kallberg faced....

I got YouTube alerts for the French and Felix went down 0‐3 to a chopper before coming back to win 11‐9 in the 7th. I think it is Alexis, Rolland, Felix and Gsuzy, though I could be wrong about Rolland. I sometimes get mildly excited about this national table tennis tournament weekend in Europe. Heck I got posts on here to the British feed and there was TT11 posting the Estonian feed... too much good TT out there lol.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

WTT Feeder Antalya, Turkiye ( 27.03.23 - 01.04.23 ) something rare is happening.

Malaysia is sending a contingent of five male and five female TT players to participate. Why is this news?

Malaysian TT players in international water is as rare as sighting an albino unicorn.

Yep, we've been keeping them in house for far too long. It's time to send them into the big wide world.

I'll probably start a new thread and incorporate YT videos of their match, if they are available.

 

[dingyibvs]

When you have crossed over to he forehand side and then a ball is played to your backhand and you have to hit it while moving back into the backhand corner. Unless you hand switch you have to to use backhand cross footwork and position your elbow properly relative to the ball. Since you arent square to the ball, it can be eye opening.

Ah gotcha. I've been doing a lot of random BH/FH drills, haven't actually recorded any of it so I'm not too sure how it looks like. I'll take a look.

I've been doing a good bit more of the single location BH practices as well. I find that when I try to do a hard counter the consistency is rather lacking even for single location. The robot when serving at max speed has a lot of variations and that amount of variation is able to give me a ton of trouble. I'll still do the BH/FH drills to get me ready to counter things quickly on both wings, but until I get better at single location BH drills I don't anticipate much quality from my BH quick counters.