Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

I don't have the benefit of a robot or multiball so all my practice is from actual scenarios in hitting with human opponents, so for me the transition was quite natural. I had to substitute it with a lot of shadow practice in front of a mirror instead.

On shot stability, I saw a clip by Zhang Jike sharing how he practices. He says that he mostly practices a lot of late timing loops, done with as much spin and feeling as possible. This is something I always go for in training too. Imo once you have extremely good feeling on spinning the ball your consistency will skyrocket, because of the added safety margin that the Magnus effect adds, and also increased spin production means it becomes easier to override the incoming spin of the ball which means there's less need for angle adjustments. Also taking the ball late allows you much more room to actually look at the ball, decode its trajectory which increases consistency significantly.

What I noticed in my own journey of improvement is that there's a concept of spin supremacy - when I level up it's mostly because I'm producing and controlling increased amounts of spin. If you have "spin supremacy" over your opponent it becomes quite easy to win because you can handle their spin easily while they can't handle yours. If they have "spin supremacy" over you it becomes a very hard battle where you struggle to even loop their heavy pushes and their serves, and when they loop you can't even control it because it's just too spinny.

I think your post is very much the core of adult learner improvement and I wish we could pin it up should be taken to heart by most people who are trying to get better, almost religiously. Being able to get more spin and vary your spin increases your options beyond what is immediately obvious. I like the way you call it spin supremacy. If one is complete, there is probably a speed/power element to increased spin as well. But that would dilute the message and make it far less useful.

I remember when the new plastic DHS balls came out in 2017 and it was obvious they spun less and people thought Timo would struggle. Then he actually went out and won the Korean Open if I remember correctly. And they asked him about it and he just said he traded winning with spin with winning with consistency made possible by spin. It really is easy to underestimate the possibilities that enhanced spin opens up to you

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Ha ha ha, apparently I am one of a kind. No one I know in my TT circle uses similar TT equipment as I do.

p/s {In hushed tone} - My lil'friend & I went to a National Event and won a wee gold medal last month. Don't tell my mum what I did last summer .

View attachment 24747
My B 1 T C H S L 4 P won the day!

It might be worth understanding how good your doubles partner is. Even in that one shot you showed, you made the winning shot because he really set you up to make the shot.

 

[NextLevel]

Well, I don’t know, I watched the video where Gonzo played, in my opinion, he needs to develop foot movements first of all.

So I was one of those players who didn't develop foot movements early and developed them later (if I have them at all). So I am really not great when focusing on beginner foot movements. But for me, learning to hit the ball properly is always a priority. People who can move but can't hit the ball can't hit the ball. People who can hit the ball but cannot move can at least hit the ball when it is in front of them.

 

[Der_Echte]

To the people who claim to be doing over 100k loops and still not getting it, your coach is either extremely bad at diagnosing and troubleshooting, or if you are self-coaching, you are very bad diagnosing and troubleshooting.

Boom. Harsh words, but has truth. Coach is accountable. 99% of cases where a player failed to measurably grow given a reasonable timeframe and instruction it is coach's fault, unless player is a real hot mess unwilling to listen or work. I know when I tried to improve without a coach and without regular play it just wasn't happening. Still, I can say brs has a lot of knowledge about how to play TT and is a reasonable voice.

So I was one of those players who didn't develop foot movements early and developed them later (if I have them at all). So I am really not great when focusing on beginner foot movements. But for me, learning to hit the ball properly is always a priority. People who can move but can't hit the ball can't hit the ball. People who can hit the ball but cannot move can at least hit the ball when it is in front of them.

I frequently tell my personal story about footwork... About every lesson I took as a 45 yr old in Korea was on footwork... Korean coaches are footwork crazy... I improved a lot in Korea, but footwork was never natural or instinctive to me there... only TEN YEARS LATER was I able to do footwork acceptable and instinctive... and I believe that was right at the time I started helping people and explaining/showing footwork.... then somehow I could do it a lot better.

As for LDM the one I coach primarily, I had to focus the lion's share of time on how to see the ball and be in position ready to set the strike zone and make the play... and a lot of the other nuances that will make him understand the game and play better... this meant I couldn't spend as much time on footwork and some technical things, but it happen in the right time and place. His clear improvement is a good story we chose an effective strategic development.

There was a lot of diagnosing and undoing going on... and still is, but the clear progress is so damn rewarding.

 

[dingyibvs]

So I played in the club league today, and it was yet another excellent session!

Going into the day, my focus was on using my BH, and using my new form pendulum service. Both went pretty well. My BH opening loop was finally steady, even though I do still need to remind myself to loop rather than push. My pendulum service is finally not a net negative anymore, had only 2-3 service errors on the day, and scored a fair number of aces. It's still not a weapon like my BH service though. I don't know how Ma Long does it. In another couple of weeks I think I'm gonna move toward service/receive training, there's gonna be a lot of recording and video watching.

Being able to execute those 2 goals would've already made the day a success...but then there was a surprise, a BIG surprise. I was counter-looping. Not just a couple times, but probably a couple dozen times and for many winners. I estimate probably close to 80% success rate. I think I hit more counter-loops than I have ever done in my entire life! This wasn't part of my goal at all, I just did it automatically because my fast paced random BH/FH training had me just instinctively loop whatever ball that comes near my FH zone. I was starting to make progress with counter-loops with my HL5, but since switching to the 968 I haven't practiced it until the past couple of weeks. Now I've picked it right back up and improved so much so quickly! I think taking @blahness advice and tuck my elbow in during the backswing really helped too. I used to have trouble getting my racket in position for a counter-loop, but that's no longer an issue.

I was shocked by my success the first game, but then it just keeps happening. Again and again, my opponent loops, and I just move and counter-loop, and again and again I'm surprised that the ball lands on the table. In one match it was my advantage in the 5th set against a guy I've only ever beaten once. He BH looped to my BH, I blocked to his middle, then he FH looped to my middle, and I counter-looped it back. He counter-looped that back, and I counter-looped again for the winner. It was beautiful. Pia! Pia! Pia! Pia! I win!

Now, there were a couple of negatives. Primarily, it was both my BH and FH loops against blocks. Now that I'm able to do the opening loop with my BH, I need to be able to consistently follow that up with a BH loop against topspin. While I can do that with a slower, spinnier shot, I want to play the power game and I'm not hitting the BH power loop with good consistency. Maybe just 50% right now. My FH loops against blocks were only slightly more consistent than my FH counter-loops. I think that's a function of not being able to practice against human opponents very often. I used to almost never miss those, but since switching from the HL5 to the 968 the consistency dropped precipitously. It's only the past week or so that I've finally been able to execute it at close to the previous level of consistency during practice. I expect that to continue to improve.

 

[blahness]

So I played in the club league today, and it was yet another excellent session!

Going into the day, my focus was on using my BH, and using my new form pendulum service. Both went pretty well. My BH opening loop was finally steady, even though I do still need to remind myself to loop rather than push. My pendulum service is finally not a net negative anymore, had only 2-3 service errors on the day, and scored a fair number of aces. It's still not a weapon like my BH service though. I don't know how Ma Long does it. In another couple of weeks I think I'm gonna move toward service/receive training, there's gonna be a lot of recording and video watching.

Being able to execute those 2 goals would've already made the day a success...but then there was a surprise, a BIG surprise. I was counter-looping. Not just a couple times, but probably a couple dozen times and for many winners. I estimate probably close to 80% success rate. I think I hit more counter-loops than I have ever done in my entire life! This wasn't part of my goal at all, I just did it automatically because my fast paced random BH/FH training had me just instinctively loop whatever ball that comes near my FH zone. I was starting to make progress with counter-loops with my HL5, but since switching to the 968 I haven't practiced it until the past couple of weeks. Now I've picked it right back up and improved so much so quickly! I think taking @blahness advice and tuck my elbow in during the backswing really helped too. I used to have trouble getting my racket in position for a counter-loop, but that's no longer an issue.

I was shocked by my success the first game, but then it just keeps happening. Again and again, my opponent loops, and I just move and counter-loop, and again and again I'm surprised that the ball lands on the table. In one match it was my advantage in the 5th set against a guy I've only ever beaten once. He BH looped to my BH, I blocked to his middle, then he FH looped to my middle, and I counter-looped it back. He counter-looped that back, and I counter-looped again for the winner. It was beautiful. Pia! Pia! Pia! Pia! I win!

Now, there were a couple of negatives. Primarily, it was both my BH and FH loops against blocks. Now that I'm able to do the opening loop with my BH, I need to be able to consistently follow that up with a BH loop against topspin. While I can do that with a slower, spinnier shot, I want to play the power game and I'm not hitting the BH power loop with good consistency. Maybe just 50% right now. My FH loops against blocks were only slightly more consistent than my FH counter-loops. I think that's a function of not being able to practice against human opponents very often. I used to almost never miss those, but since switching from the HL5 to the 968 the consistency dropped precipitously. It's only the past week or so that I've finally been able to execute it at close to the previous level of consistency during practice. I expect that to continue to improve.

Woohoo! Yeah tucking the elbow in during the backswing crucially allows for a lever of adjustment against weirder balls, because from this position you can do the chicken wing FH or the straight arm FH depending on your positioning. You can't be expecting to get into perfect position for every single ball in matches.

On the transition between BH opening loop and then BH powerloop - there's a lot of evil stuff you could do against the block off your opening loop. My favourite is Harimoto (both Miwa and Tomo!) style close table switching down the line - it catches a lot of people by surprise and it is the killer BH move in righty-righty matchups. However it is a stroke you have to train a lot to be comfortable with. The other option is immediately preparing to loopkill the block with your FH, Ma Long style. Imo continuous BH looping from mid distance is the weakest option because the BH is not as strong as the FH and good players can generally outblock you bad. If you get caught having to BH loop from mid distance I would suggest to target their middle-FH area with sidespin curving into their elbow - that is generally the most uncomfortable area to block from.

Imo BH service is in general stronger than FH serves because it's an unnatural angle when served to the FH short - plus there's no need to switch back to ready position because you're already there facing the opponent and using the full grip for the serve. I also feel that reverse pendulum and hook serves (which generally produce similar spin to the BH serve) to be stronger than the standard FH pendulum.

 

[dingyibvs]

Woohoo! Yeah tucking the elbow in during the backswing crucially allows for a lever of adjustment against weirder balls, because from this position you can do the chicken wing FH or the straight arm FH depending on your positioning. You can't be expecting to get into perfect position for every single ball in matches.

On the transition between BH opening loop and then BH powerloop - there's a lot of evil stuff you could do against the block off your opening loop. My favourite is Harimoto (both Miwa and Tomo!) style close table switching down the line - it catches a lot of people by surprise and it is the killer BH move in righty-righty matchups. However it is a stroke you have to train a lot to be comfortable with. The other option is immediately preparing to loopkill the block with your FH, Ma Long style. Imo continuous BH looping from mid distance is the weakest option because the BH is not as strong as the FH and good players can generally outblock you bad. If you get caught having to BH loop from mid distance I would suggest to target their middle-FH area with sidespin curving into their elbow - that is generally the most uncomfortable area to block from.

Imo BH service is in general stronger than FH serves because it's an unnatural angle when served to the FH short - plus there's no need to switch back to ready position because you're already there facing the opponent and using the full grip for the serve. I also feel that reverse pendulum and hook serves (which generally produce similar spin to the BH serve) to be stronger than the standard FH pendulum.

Man, I can hardly contain my excitement. I've always wanted to counter-loop, and I've mixed it into my practice here and there the past few months, but this is the first time I was able to execute it in singles (in doubles I usually have more time to set up for the shot). I think the tucked in elbow is really the missing piece, it finally allowed me to translate from practices to games. Most people try to avoid my FH, that doesn't work well with backspins as they're slow, and in real matches I can usually step around to loop with my FH. But with topspins it's done pretty easily. Now I can chicken-arm counter-loop it back with my FH so long as it's not a loop drive or too far to my BH side.

As for my BH, I think I'll try to learn the powerloop cross table first, then work more on looping down the line. I actually tried to loop down the line in one of my sets of random BH/FH drills yesterday, the consistency was atrocious. So my plan right now is, BH opening loop, then BH power loop to the body/elbow, which should give me a relatively soft block more toward the middle of the table, then I pivot and finish the point.

Going forward, I think I'm gonna stick to my current practices for a couple more weeks. Last time I made the mistake of moving on from BH practices as soon as I started being able to apply my BH in games. That caused my newly learned BH skills to stagnate if not regress. I need to consolidate my new skills this time around.

Afterwards, I'm gonna focus on service/receive practices, and mix in more BH practices. I'm thinking something like starting with services, then receives, then BH loops, then more services and receives, then finish with random BH/FH drills to tire me out at the end of the practice.

 

[NextLevel]

So I played in the club league today, and it was yet another excellent session!

Going into the day, my focus was on using my BH, and using my new form pendulum service. Both went pretty well. My BH opening loop was finally steady, even though I do still need to remind myself to loop rather than push. My pendulum service is finally not a net negative anymore, had only 2-3 service errors on the day, and scored a fair number of aces. It's still not a weapon like my BH service though. I don't know how Ma Long does it. In another couple of weeks I think I'm gonna move toward service/receive training, there's gonna be a lot of recording and video watching.

Being able to execute those 2 goals would've already made the day a success...but then there was a surprise, a BIG surprise. I was counter-looping. Not just a couple times, but probably a couple dozen times and for many winners. I estimate probably close to 80% success rate. I think I hit more counter-loops than I have ever done in my entire life! This wasn't part of my goal at all, I just did it automatically because my fast paced random BH/FH training had me just instinctively loop whatever ball that comes near my FH zone. I was starting to make progress with counter-loops with my HL5, but since switching to the 968 I haven't practiced it until the past couple of weeks. Now I've picked it right back up and improved so much so quickly! I think taking @blahness advice and tuck my elbow in during the backswing really helped too. I used to have trouble getting my racket in position for a counter-loop, but that's no longer an issue.

I was shocked by my success the first game, but then it just keeps happening. Again and again, my opponent loops, and I just move and counter-loop, and again and again I'm surprised that the ball lands on the table. In one match it was my advantage in the 5th set against a guy I've only ever beaten once. He BH looped to my BH, I blocked to his middle, then he FH looped to my middle, and I counter-looped it back. He counter-looped that back, and I counter-looped again for the winner. It was beautiful. Pia! Pia! Pia! Pia! I win!

Now, there were a couple of negatives. Primarily, it was both my BH and FH loops against blocks. Now that I'm able to do the opening loop with my BH, I need to be able to consistently follow that up with a BH loop against topspin. While I can do that with a slower, spinnier shot, I want to play the power game and I'm not hitting the BH power loop with good consistency. Maybe just 50% right now. My FH loops against blocks were only slightly more consistent than my FH counter-loops. I think that's a function of not being able to practice against human opponents very often. I used to almost never miss those, but since switching from the HL5 to the 968 the consistency dropped precipitously. It's only the past week or so that I've finally been able to execute it at close to the previous level of consistency during practice. I expect that to continue to improve.

If you open with slow spin, you will usually get a slower block back unless your opponent is punching or counterlooping the high ball. You have to take that ball a bit earlier if you want to be aggressive. If you hit with speed, you usually get speed back and you should be able to use that to with your spin stroke to place the next ball - power looping isn't absolutely necessary to get quality in that scenario. It is the same thing with the forehand. Sometimes it isn't sp much about adding more power as it is about taking the ball earlier based on how the opponent has blocked it.

Counterlooping instinctively is a level jump. Congrats.

 

[dingyibvs]

If you open with slow spin, you will usually get a slower block back unless your opponent is punching or counterlooping the high ball. You have to take that ball a bit earlier if you want to be aggressive. If you hit with speed, you usually get speed back and you should be able to use that to with your spin stroke to place the next ball - power looping isn't absolutely necessary to get quality in that scenario. It is the same thing with the forehand. Sometimes it isn't sp much about adding more power as it is about taking the ball earlier based on how the opponent has blocked it.

Counterlooping instinctively is a level jump. Congrats.

Thanks! Taking the ball at different timings is fine on the FH side, it's easy for me to change my momentum shift to a more back to forward one rather than a right to left one. On the BH side though I can't do that, so I just wait for the ball to come to me.

 

[blahness]

What would you guys do if someone flat hits your opening loops and adds sidespin curving away from you to your wide FH? Unlike topspin balls I can't just borrow the incoming spin to redirect it back to their wide FH.

Is it just a matter of increasing quality up to a point where they can't do that consistently? I feel like once someone does that, unless I'm super fresh on the legs to really overwhelm them on the next FH loop, I'm usually in a freaking bad position and will lose the point 80% of the time....

 

[dingyibvs]

What would you guys do if someone flat hits your opening loops and adds sidespin curving away from you to your wide FH? Unlike topspin balls I can't just borrow the incoming spin to redirect it back to their wide FH.

Is it just a matter of increasing quality up to a point where they can't do that consistently? I feel like once someone does that, unless I'm super fresh on the legs to really overwhelm them on the next FH loop, I'm usually in a freaking bad position and will lose the point 80% of the time....

That happens when Moregard or Adriana Diaz land a flat hit or a punch block too, the pros don't have any better way to handle it either. The only way to prevent it is to increase your opening loop quality.

 

[hclnnkhg]

What would you guys do if someone flat hits your opening loops and adds sidespin curving away from you to your wide FH? Unlike topspin balls I can't just borrow the incoming spin to redirect it back to their wide FH.

Is it just a matter of increasing quality up to a point where they can't do that consistently? I feel like once someone does that, unless I'm super fresh on the legs to really overwhelm them on the next FH loop, I'm usually in a freaking bad position and will lose the point 80% of the time....

Let's decompose it. Your opponent flat hit your shot and put sidespin on it.

1. How do you return a flat hit? I would say you need to open up the bat a bit, add some topspin yourself, and then block/drive it back. Or if you can wait for it to slow down a bit and actively topspin it (you would be further away from the table and you need to move into position).

2. Your opponent put sidespin on the ball to your wide forehand. How do you return that? Move quickly and angle your bat, taking the sidespin into account.

Now add those up! Of course, the ideal solution would be to prevent them from doing it. That could be done by increasing the quality of your shot, or add more variations to your shot so they can't anticipate it as well.

 

[Zwill]

Let's decompose it. Your opponent flat hit your shot and put sidespin on it.

1. How do you return a flat hit? I would say you need to open up the bat a bit, add some topspin yourself, and then block/drive it back. Or if you can wait for it to slow down a bit and actively topspin it (you would be further away from the table and you need to move into position).

2. Your opponent put sidespin on the ball to your wide forehand. How do you return that? Move quickly and angle your bat, taking the sidespin into account.

Now add those up! Of course, the ideal solution would be to prevent them from doing it. That could be done by increasing the quality of your shot, or add more variations to your shot so they can't anticipate it as well.

This is pretty good.

Let me add more info.
After opening up be prepared for a counter.
Try to make your open up as close as to the net as possible
If you cant make it close step 2 steps back and anticipate a counter.
If you don't have confidence in your open up then ignore the spin and "lowness" you can make and just do what you can and anticipate a counter with high racket position to be able to flat block back.

 

[hclnnkhg]

This is pretty good.

Let me add more info.
After opening up be prepared for a counter.
Try to make your open up as close as to the net as possible
If you cant make it close step 2 steps back and anticipate a counter.
If you don't have confidence in your open up then ignore the spin and "lowness" you can make and just do what you can and anticipate a counter with high racket position to be able to flat block back.

That's when the slow spinny brush loop is very useful; the spin makes it difficult for the opponent to attack and the slowness allows you to recover for the next shot.

 

[NextLevel]

What would you guys do if someone flat hits your opening loops and adds sidespin curving away from you to your wide FH? Unlike topspin balls I can't just borrow the incoming spin to redirect it back to their wide FH.

Is it just a matter of increasing quality up to a point where they can't do that consistently? I feel like once someone does that, unless I'm super fresh on the legs to really overwhelm them on the next FH loop, I'm usually in a freaking bad position and will lose the point 80% of the time....

Move the ball around, more towards their elbow, quality isn't the only way to win points in table tennis. Sometimes sequencing shots slightly differently avoids certain possibilities and even moving the ball 6 inches to the left or right can totally change the trajectory of a point.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks! Taking the ball at different timings is fine on the FH side, it's easy for me to change my momentum shift to a more back to forward one rather than a right to left one. On the BH side though I can't do that, so I just wait for the ball to come to me.

Give it a shot you might surprise yourself. In fact, more and more players are punch blocking from behind the table in rallies, my practice partner hits quite a few in matches and it is more annoying than topspin to br honest. The first principle of TT practice is to test things out, avoid presupposing the result without some practice.

 

[blahness]

Let's decompose it. Your opponent flat hit your shot and put sidespin on it.

1. How do you return a flat hit? I would say you need to open up the bat a bit, add some topspin yourself, and then block/drive it back. Or if you can wait for it to slow down a bit and actively topspin it (you would be further away from the table and you need to move into position).

2. Your opponent put sidespin on the ball to your wide forehand. How do you return that? Move quickly and angle your bat, taking the sidespin into account.

Now add those up! Of course, the ideal solution would be to prevent them from doing it. That could be done by increasing the quality of your shot, or add more variations to your shot so they can't anticipate it as well.

Thanks! The big issue is that it curves away from me, so the further away from the table I am, the more distance I have to cover. The guy can do this shot with both FH (hooking the ball) and BH (fading the ball), and can do it even against loops to his middle - it's the most annoying shot I've faced. However he can only do it against my BH opening loops, if I use FH I usually straight up just win the point outright because of the sheer quality. Usually he misses the shot quite a bit but he was reaching >80% accuracy this time.

I actually did get a few FH powerloops off this annoying shot, but then when I'm getting tired due to all the wide movements I'm doing, my FH quality is reducing and he's just countering that back to my wide BH and it's just gg after that point.

 

[blahness]

That happens when Moregard or Adriana Diaz land a flat hit or a punch block too, the pros don't have any better way to handle it either. The only way to prevent it is to increase your opening loop quality.

Yeah I don't see the pros handling it well either 😂😂😂 This is such a killer shot if it lands at high percentages....

Move the ball around, more towards their elbow, quality isn't the only way to win points in table tennis. Sometimes sequencing shots slightly differently avoids certain possibilities and even moving the ball 6 inches to the left or right can totally change the trajectory of a point.

Even middle or FH doesn't stop him from executing this sidespin flathit.... I think the only way I avoid this is if I loop it really wide to his BH (ball exiting the sides) but tbh this has some risks too because there's not that much table to aim for.

I guess I could also mix in a few of my fake loops too and vary the spin of the loop to prevent him from being so confident in the flat hit.

 

[blahness]

That's when the slow spinny brush loop is very useful; the spin makes it difficult for the opponent to attack and the slowness allows you to recover for the next shot.

Yep, I noticed that he can only do it against my BH opening loops which have less spin than my FH opening loops. Maybe a solution would be to really load up on the spin of the BH loop too.

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah I don't see the pros handling it well either 😂😂😂 This is such a killer shot if it lands at high percentages....

Even middle or FH doesn't stop him from executing this sidespin flathit.... I think the only way I avoid this is if I loop it really wide to his BH (ball exiting the sides) but tbh this has some risks too because there's not that much table to aim for.

I guess I could also mix in a few of my fake loops too and vary the spin of the loop to prevent him from being so confident in the flat hit.

It is hard to hit sidespin loops from the middle of the table, admittedly fading from the backhand is annoying, but it is usually a different animal from a forehand hook. That said you do seem to have solutions and some are promising. But avoid creating an angle and refusing to cover it. If you send someone wide with a hooking shot. you need to recover to covet the middle of where you sent the ball to unless you tried to win the point outright. This is usually what causes this kind of trouble. Make the opponent consistently play to the shorter side of the table before respecting their ability to do so. But I suspect you will develop solutions to it fairly soon.