Speed glue / tensor = same thing?

says Buttefly Forever!!!
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ESN is factory boosted, like the MX-P you like, it won't last 1 month before its useless
I often hear about MXP's drop in performance. Is this a perculiar problem for MXP alone or is it an issue across all the ESN rubber?

Say the newer Donic Bluestorm, will it also have such similar problem?
 
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it depends: the Rasanter R47 really feels like an old 90's Mark V on steroïds with speed glue, but some other tensors behave way more gently with the same hardness...
 
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There's drop in performance with ANY rubber, tensor or not... Tony is talking sh*t as usual... it all depends on how many hours you use it and how much power you use with your strokes
 
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I often hear about MXP's drop in performance. Is this a perculiar problem for MXP alone or is it an issue across all the ESN rubber?

Say the newer Donic Bluestorm, will it also have such similar problem?
I haven't played with all the brands out there, but I believe ESN has this problem in general, or rather all rubbers.

Someone said it before on this forum, boosting or tension or what ever you are doing is stretching the rubber.
So with time, it will force itself back into that pre-tension state. Of which this is the state that the rubbers are deem useless.

However, this is all relative to how you use the rubber. Higher level players would require the rubber to be at 80% or 90% min. While lower levels could use until 30%.
 
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LET'S TALK on TENSORS IN SCIENTIFICAL MANNER.

Q: What makes both a Superball and Tensor rubbers so super?

- The patent for Superballs filed by its inventor Norman Stingley in the year 1965, lists as its main ingredient a well-known polymer known as polybutadiene, a name that does mean something to chemists. The prefix “but-” means a four-carbon chain. The “-ene” ending means double bond, and “di-” means two. So “butadiene” means a four-carbon chain with two double bonds: CH2=CHCH=CH2

Apparently, when polybutadiene is vulcanized at a temperature of 160 °C and a pressure of 70 atm (according to Stingley’s patent), it creates a cross-linked polymer with a resilience of 92%. This meant that if you dropped a Superball from 100.0 cm onto a hard surface, it would bounce back to about 92.0 cm, then 84.6 cm, then 77.9 cm, and so on, always bouncing to about 92% of its previous height. When many elastic substances are distorted, they regain their original shape, but in the process, some of the energy that went into distorting the substance is lost as heat. If it didn’t, you could theoretically produce a Superball that would bounce forever (ignoring air resistance). Anyone who has played squash or racquetball is familiar with how the ball heats up the more it is bounced.
Vulcanized polybutadiene only loses 8% of its energy to heat per collision, and therefore bounces back with 92% resiliency. This was much more than any bouncing ball ever manufactured in the World's History.
This alone was impressive, but it alone would not have made the Superball the hottest selling toy of the mid-1960s. A second remarkable property of Stingley’s “Zectron” was its high coefficient of friction. Try pulling a Superball across a smooth surface, and you will appreciate this effect. When bounced across the floor to a friend, the first bounce causes the ball to acquire a significant topspin. This topspin then propels the ball with remarkable speed on the second bounce, making it nearly impossible to catch. This high coefficient of friction also allowed for all kinds of tricks, the most famous of the being the under-table bounce: If the ball is bounced off the floor so that it hits the underside of a table, the aforementioned topspin makes the ball rebound straight back to the thrower. If you have never seen this, give it a try.


Tensors made in China. What is it?
— To begin with, the term of "tensor" is a patented name solely owned by ESN GmbH. The analogue products by non-ESN factories are known as "high resilience sponge" and "high tension sponge". Most China players don't play with tensors for some specific reasons, nor Chinese produce those domestically. Making the rubbers with the trampoline effect (aka tensors) is a very complex technology that implies a special process of rubber vulcanization under high pressure of 70 atm. Syntetic polybutadiene is the main component for tensors.

Giant Dragon is the only manufactory to produce the high-resilience products (=tensors) in China. They have adopted the "magic" rubber formulation by ing. Stingley of 1965. They have settled to supply their tensor products abroad only, no supply inside China.
IMPORTANT TO NOTE: The best tensor rubbers would display minimum of 40 units under the "Schob rebound test".
_____________________
@ Be an eruditus of everything.
 
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says Table tennis clown
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In post # 16 I allowed myself to make some critical statements and got absolutely no comment on it. I am not just expecting responses to tickle my ego but I do it so that my opinions can be criticized, taken apart, confirmed or whatever...............so that I may learn !!!

So here it is again : Get into it 🤣



When you glue the sponge onto a rigid object (i.e. the blade), you forcibly compress the sponge back to flat thus increasing the pressure of the air bubbles within the sponge, and the VOC's expanding force is now all absorbed by the topsheet. The combination of an over pressured sponge and a stretched topsheet is what makes speed glue and probably also boosters work.
I can follow your train of thought but wonder ..................
I always consider the doming as just a nuisance. When I first read the "howto" for boosters they emphasized the long time needed between layers of boosting if I remember it was over 8h.
Then the last layer was supposed to be left alone for 24hours.
At this stage the chemical reaction in the sponge is finished, the dome has flattened out again and both sponge and top rubber have swollen and/or stretched in unison.
Then the boosted unit is glued on to the blade.
To force and glue a still domed rubber on to the blade seems questionable practice to me.
What do you think ? It would then mean we have both a chemical and a mechanical boosting going on, the mechanical part being the compressing of your air bubbles and the additional stretching of the top "around the sponge, right ???

I am quite sure that I miss something here. 😁
 
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In post # 16 I allowed myself to make some critical statements and got absolutely no comment on it. I am not just expecting responses to tickle my ego but I do it so that my opinions can be criticized, taken apart, confirmed or whatever...............so that I may learn !!!

So here it is again : Get into it 🤣




I can follow your train of thought but wonder ..................
I always consider the doming as just a nuisance. When I first read the "howto" for boosters they emphasized the long time needed between layers of boosting if I remember it was over 8h.
Then the last layer was supposed to be left alone for 24hours.
At this stage the chemical reaction in the sponge is finished, the dome has flattened out again and both sponge and top rubber have swollen and/or stretched in unison.
Then the boosted unit is glued on to the blade.
To force and glue a still domed rubber on to the blade seems questionable practice to me.
What do you think ? It would then mean we have both a chemical and a mechanical boosting going on, the mechanical part being the compressing of your air bubbles and the additional stretching of the top "around the sponge, right ???

I am quite sure that I miss something here. 😁
You may remember I did a boosting trial, basic to say the least!! A couple of sheets of Friendship 729, I measured their size during the process, the sheets were 2mm larger (in width & length) at the end of the trial, both had flattened out, from memory.
during the boosting process they domed up as expected.
So during - sponge expanding and rubber resisting?? Therefore doming occurs.
After - sponge finished expanding, and / or - rubber has stretched and given up ‘resisting’ or has just expanded as well???
 
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You may remember I did a boosting trial, basic to say the least!! A couple of sheets of Friendship 729, I measured their size during the process, the sheets were 2mm larger (in width & length) at the end of the trial, both had flattened out, from memory.
during the boosting process they domed up as expected.
So during - sponge expanding and rubber resisting?? Therefore doming occurs.
After - sponge finished expanding, and / or - rubber has stretched and given up ‘resisting’ or has just expanded as well???
Ah yes, even the master is finishing his post with question marks 😂
May I conclude that you also "prescribe" to the practice of letting the doming settle over many hours ?
And what do you think about bending the domed rubber and gluing it to the blade ??
My revo3 would never hold the rubbers on to the blade.
 
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says toooooo much choice!!
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Ah yes, even the master is finishing his post with question marks 😂
May I conclude that you also "prescribe" to the practice of letting the doming settle over many hours ?
And what do you think about bending the domed rubber and gluing it to the blade ??
My revo3 would never hold the rubbers on to the blade.
Yeah, I tried to glue an over domed sheet of H3, started to peel at edges :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
But being a stubborn old git I just weighted it down with books, bags of sugar, anything heavy to hand and left it overnight!!!! Job done!!! But it was touch and go!!!

I’ve glued when flat and when dome is receding. Did I ‘feel’ any difference, Nah!!! Not sensitive enough to pick up on any difference!!!:ROFLMAO:

Regarding the ????

I think the rubber does ‘resist’
but whether it is just stretched and settled enough so it doesn’t curl, or has expanded, I don’t know???. But below MAY be an answer!!!!!

I‘ve never re-boosted a rubber and tried to re-glue, so haven’t taken any notice of whether it has shrunk when removed, if it has shrunk, it should do?? then it may point towards the ‘boosting reaction’ still taking place when the dome has receded??
The booster may have soaked through the sponge and then reacts with the rubber, softening it. Which is one of the things people say, the whole rubber/sponge combo ‘feels’ softer.
The softer rubber stretches rather than resists. Therefore a slightly larger top sheet size and no dome.
Then when the ‘booster reaction‘ has stopped, which I think is always after the initial gluing of the rubber, the sponge and rubber remain ‘stretched’ until removed, and then return to ‘normal’ when removed.

If they don’t shrink, then you would think that the boosting effect has been ‘permanent’ because the expansion and stretching/softening remains.
 
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Funny you mention the Tibhar's EVO series. Currently I am on my second MXP and my first sheet lasted me around one year before I threw it away.

I could not tell the drop off in performance. It play same to me in the first few months as well as the last few weeks.

I have no idea what this drop off performance is like personally.
I have to be honest with you: I am not sure your able to make the kind of shots where you would be able to tell the difference.

[Edit:] I responded before seeing that NDH covered the information more clearly:

The biggest thing for me was the spin generation drop off.

But realistically, you are only going to notice if you’ve got heavy spin shots.

There was very little difference in top end speed on a hard, flat shot.
 
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LET'S TALK on TENSORS IN SCIENTIFICAL MANNER.

Q: What makes both a Superball and Tensor rubbers so super?

- The patent for Superballs filed by its inventor Norman Stingley in the year 1965, lists as its main ingredient a well-known polymer known as polybutadiene, a name that does mean something to chemists. The prefix “but-” means a four-carbon chain. The “-ene” ending means double bond, and “di-” means two. So “butadiene” means a four-carbon chain with two double bonds: CH2=CHCH=CH2

Apparently, when polybutadiene is vulcanized at a temperature of 160 °C and a pressure of 70 atm (according to Stingley’s patent), it creates a cross-linked polymer with a resilience of 92%. This meant that if you dropped a Superball from 100.0 cm onto a hard surface, it would bounce back to about 92.0 cm, then 84.6 cm, then 77.9 cm, and so on, always bouncing to about 92% of its previous height. When many elastic substances are distorted, they regain their original shape, but in the process, some of the energy that went into distorting the substance is lost as heat. If it didn’t, you could theoretically produce a Superball that would bounce forever (ignoring air resistance). Anyone who has played squash or racquetball is familiar with how the ball heats up the more it is bounced.
Vulcanized polybutadiene only loses 8% of its energy to heat per collision, and therefore bounces back with 92% resiliency. This was much more than any bouncing ball ever manufactured in the World's History.
This alone was impressive, but it alone would not have made the Superball the hottest selling toy of the mid-1960s. A second remarkable property of Stingley’s “Zectron” was its high coefficient of friction. Try pulling a Superball across a smooth surface, and you will appreciate this effect. When bounced across the floor to a friend, the first bounce causes the ball to acquire a significant topspin. This topspin then propels the ball with remarkable speed on the second bounce, making it nearly impossible to catch. This high coefficient of friction also allowed for all kinds of tricks, the most famous of the being the under-table bounce: If the ball is bounced off the floor so that it hits the underside of a table, the aforementioned topspin makes the ball rebound straight back to the thrower. If you have never seen this, give it a try.


Tensors made in China. What is it?
— To begin with, the term of "tensor" is a patented name solely owned by ESN GmbH. The analogue products by non-ESN factories are known as "high resilience sponge" and "high tension sponge". Most China players don't play with tensors for some specific reasons, nor Chinese produce those domestically. Making the rubbers with the trampoline effect (aka tensors) is a very complex technology that implies a special process of rubber vulcanization under high pressure of 70 atm. Syntetic polybutadiene is the main component for tensors.

Giant Dragon is the only manufactory to produce the high-resilience products (=tensors) in China. They have adopted the "magic" rubber formulation by ing. Stingley of 1965. They have settled to supply their tensor products abroad only, no supply inside China.
IMPORTANT TO NOTE: The best tensor rubbers would display minimum of 40 units under the "Schob rebound test".
_____________________
@ Be an eruditus of everything.
is Giant Dragon really on the level of ESN rubbers?
 
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Everyone talks about ESN rubbers drop in performance!!!!!
AND YET
They have (ok not everyone does!!) to boost their sheets of H3 or similar straight out of the pack!!!! BEFORE / SO the performance can drop after 3 - 12 weeks!!!! :ROFLMAO::LOL::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::LOL::unsure:
The question is not comparing with another rubber but comparing with the exact same.

Same user, same rubber, same hours, same everything.
MX-P is a 1 month rubber out of the packaging, untreated before gluing.
The performance drop is great compared to the 5th week versus say 3rd week

Its easy to use apple vs apple. no need to point out the dozens of variables when it is the exact same.
I'm mere telling 1 user that, MX-P is not super durable, in fact it is one of the less out of the ESN stable.

H3 has always been a 2 to 4 week rubber.
ESN however would be 2 to 3 months, and MX-P is way below that average.
How hard it is to understand is beyond me and since i'm explaining to the user that answers me, nosy old users tend to want to derail, hence ignored, would love BLOCKED rather to keep conversations simple and mature

however, as I said, lower level player could be happy to use it till 30% life and continue.
There was even users that wanted (or liked) 2nd rubber sellers/shops. This is beyond my common sense, but hey, everyone thinks differently and rightfully allowed to.
I could start a 2nd hand shop for all these users, I have access to over 100 players that change rubbers every couple of weeks lol
 
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Since the original question of this thread was about Speed Glue vs Tensor, this is just a comment on that subject.

I remember in 2012, after the speed glue ban was in effect for about 4 years, I had the opportunity to play with Joola Mambo that was freshly speed glued and to compare it to Tenergy that was fairly fresh and, I have to say, that Mambo rubber felt amazing. :) Tenergy is darn good and at the time there was nothing legal that compared to it. But the speed glued Mambo just felt amazing. :)
 
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I guess, for balance, back then, one of the complicating issues with speed glue was, you had to take off your rubbers and reglue every time you played. And you did not always get the same exact results. Every so often you would feel the glue job was extra good. And every so often you would not be as happy with the results of gluing.
 
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Since the original question of this thread was about Speed Glue vs Tensor, this is just a comment.

I remember in 2012, after the speed glue ban was in effect for about 4 years, I had the opportunity to play with Joola Mambo that was freshly speed glued and to compare it to Tenergy that was fairly fresh and, I have to say, that Mambo rubber felt amazing. :) Tenergy is darn good and at the time there was nothing legal that compared to it. But the speed glued Mambo just felt amazing. :)

I still remember old coaches (both Chinese and non Chinese) were saying 729 rubbers + speed glue out performs Butterfly any day.

I understand the speed glue ban was forced by IOC. It's either TT becomes a "safe sport" or its out of the OG.
But then, since speed glue ban, the so called "R&D" on equipment and then followed by monopoly on 2 (and now 3) rubber makers has resulted in 1 thing: Rubber pricing breaking all time high records.

Together with 1 on 1 coaching, table tennis is one of the most expensive extra murals in the world today.
 
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I guess, for balance, back then, one of the complicating issues with speed glue was, you had to take off your rubbers and reglue every time you played. And you did not always get the same exact results. Every so often you would feel the glue job was extra good. And every so often you would not be as happy with the results of gluing.

True, it was messy and gamble on quality.
now, player still glue very often to get everything out of the rubber, but once a week (or 2 times) versus 3 or 5 times a day, most pro players are happy about today.

I think the dislike is not on speed glue vs modern, but rather 40 vs 40+ balls. There is a lot more moaning with 40+, even today.
 
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I have to be honest with you: I am not sure your able to make the kind of shots where you would be able to tell the difference.

[Edit:] I responded before seeing that NDH covered the information more clearly:
No wonder to me I hardly notice the drop-off issue. I was ignorantly & blissfully using MXP close to a year before I noticed the sponge deteriorating visually and only then I know that it has reached its useful life. So, yeah, MXP drop in performance is not an issue for me at this point in time.

But then, I wonder if newer ESN formula like Donic's Bluestorm Z1 ( another ESN super trampolinish rubber ) would escape this drop-off issue. I am tempted to use it in lieu of MXP.
 
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