Speed glue / tensor = same thing?

[Gozo Zyreruna]

I wish to find out does ESB / tensor technology mimics speed glue effect?

Are they the same or do they have different properties?

I'll use Donic Acuda series as an example. In its product packaging, it states rubber with in-built speed glue effect where as newer Donic series does not state so although we all know Donic is typical ESN / tensor technology.

This is where I am a little confuse, does in-built speed glue effect equate to tensor rubber technology?

Thanks for clarifying to this newcomer to this TT sport.

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

Nothing else can replace what the spicy chemicals in speedglue could do to a rubber

 

[NDH]

I’ve always felt the “in built speed glue effect” line is a marketing gimmick to appease the sheer grief players felt when speed glue was banned.

If anything, booster would be pretty close to speed glue (at least the closest thing we have other than using actual speed glue).

But both aren’t supposed to be used……

There are some rubbers (the EVO series by Tibhar comes to mind), where the initial performance of the rubber “wears out” rather quickly, leaving you with a different feeling rubber all together.

Some people like the rubber after the initial “speed glue effect” has worn off - Others don’t.

Rubbers from butterfly (in my experience), don’t have this “drop off”.

They decrease in performance over time, as do all rubbers, but it doesn’t feel like any “speed glue effect” is wearing off.

From my own POV, having to glue up before every single match was a real pain in the *** so I’m happy it was banned! 😂

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Funny you mention the Tibhar's EVO series. Currently I am on my second MXP and my first sheet lasted me around one year before I threw it away.

I could not tell the drop off in performance. It play same to me in the first few months as well as the last few weeks.

I have no idea what this drop off performance is like personally.

 

[igorponger]

SG and tensor technology. Two unlike working principles resulting very similar effect. Both should give you a sponge bouncy as hell.. For more particularities take a look into my explanatory lectures preceding to this one.

Be happy. 🥰

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

SG and tensor technology. Two unlike working principles resulting very similar effect. Both should give you a sponge bouncy as hell.. For more particularities take a look into my explanatory lectures preceding to this one.

link pls?

 

[NDH]

Funny you mention the Tibhar's EVO series. Currently I am on my second MXP and my first sheet lasted me around one year before I threw it away.

I could not tell the drop off in performance. It play same to me in the first few months as well as the last few weeks.

I have no idea what this drop off performance is like personally.

The biggest thing for me was the spin generation drop off.

But realistically, you are only going to notice if you’ve got heavy spin shots.

There was very little difference in top end speed on a hard, flat shot.

 

[allfj]

Definently not. tensor rubbers are normal rubbers, but in the process of making them they are pulled out to make it springier.

 

[lodro]

in the process of making them they are pulled out to make it springier.

Definitely not. 🤣🤣 🤣 🤣

 

[longrange]

I didn't see the real technology pointed to anywhere on tt forums (and I wasn't that persistent), but there are only so many ways to create the effect of stretched topsheet we are talking about: Add a "good" solvent to the sponge to make it expand as polymers do, and to stretch the topsheet correspondingly. "Good" solvent here is either a speed glue or a booster.

And I think I've seen a paper from a different domain, where they added solvent and stretched an elastomer in cycle. Then even if you remove the solvent some residual expansion remains.

So this stretching thing might be not that laughable.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

I used. the original speed glue (tyre rubber cement during the 1980s-90's). It was fun to play with but an unpleasant nuisance to apply. The effect only lasted a few hours. so in the course of reapplying it the blade and rubber acquired a thick skin of glue which made the racket heavier.
Playing characteristic:
I you hit hard it catapulted the ball like a rocket. If you played a push the response was more normal. which was good for control. The speed effect was much greater than tensor except in touch play
carrying a big pot of glue around was a major pain

 

[dingyibvs]

I didn't see the real technology pointed to anywhere on tt forums (and I wasn't that persistent), but there are only so many ways to create the effect of stretched topsheet we are talking about: Add a "good" solvent to the sponge to make it expand as polymers do, and to stretch the topsheet correspondingly. "Good" solvent here is either a speed glue or a booster.

And I think I've seen a paper from a different domain, where they added solvent and stretched an elastomer in cycle. Then even if you remove the solvent some residual expansion remains.

So this stretching thing might be not that laughable.

Sure, they can be stretched, permanently even, but there won't be any tension. Tension needs a rigid object to hold it, like a blade, or the tension will simply snap the elastic object back.

If a topsheet is being stretched by the sponge, then the same force that's stretching the topsheet will be compressing the sponge. Equal and opposite forces must be maintained in a static system, that's the law of physics. With speed glue, constant release of VOCs will keep the sponge from being compressed (i.e. it keeps expanding the sponge), which is why you get the doming. When you glue the sponge onto a rigid object (i.e. the blade), you forcibly compress the sponge back to flat thus increasing the pressure of the air bubbles within the sponge, and the VOC's expanding force is now all absorbed by the topsheet. The combination of an over pressured sponge and a stretched topsheet is what makes speed glue and probably also boosters work.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Funny you mention the Tibhar's EVO series. Currently I am on my second MXP and my first sheet lasted me around one year before I threw it away.

I could not tell the drop off in performance. It play same to me in the first few months as well as the last few weeks.

I have no idea what this drop off performance is like personally.

As NDH pointed out "heavy spin shot"

Basically for high level players, they can notice glue job + sponge/topsheet life span from just hitting the ball.
when glue is old, it gets hard and the bounce is worse and feeling will be gone.
Some times it is not the glue being too many days old, some times it can just be a bad glue job. So it isn't uncommon for players removing the rubber and re gluing literally the same day of the gluing.

Then the next is sponge/topsheet, you will notice that you can not grip the ball enough to produce high level heavy spin shots. The ball will "float out" more than "guided out", this is when you will need to say bye bye to your rubber.
Some times reboosting would work. If the player needs to fund his/her own equipment, they would likely reboost and use the rubber for training. For matches, it will make way for a fresh sheet.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

As NDH pointed out "heavy spin shot"

Basically for high level players, they can notice glue job + sponge/topsheet life span from just hitting the ball.
when glue is old, it gets hard and the bounce is worse and feeling will be gone.
Some times it is not the glue being too many days old, some times it can just be a bad glue job. So it isn't uncommon for players removing the rubber and re gluing literally the same day of the gluing.

Then the next is sponge/topsheet, you will notice that you can not grip the ball enough to produce high level heavy spin shots. The ball will "float out" more than "guided out", this is when you will need to say bye bye to your rubber.
Some times reboosting would work. If the player needs to fund his/her own equipment, they would likely reboost and use the rubber for training. For matches, it will make way for a fresh sheet.

after hearing your description, I'll say hallehluyah! Thank god for ESN! Praise be to God!

It is like going from Manual to Automatic Transmission in cars!

 

[longrange]

If a topsheet is being stretched by the sponge, then the same force that's stretching the topsheet will be compressing the sponge. Equal and opposite forces must be maintained in a static system, that's the law of physics.

Well yes, otherwise your sponge would grow indefinitely or shrink into nothingness, but this is trivial. When you pump a "good solvent", a booster, into the sponge, it starts to expand until it's equilibrated by the topsheet's stretch. The new equilibrium is the state where the sponge is expanded, and the topsheet is stretched by this sponge. In this new equilibrium all your forces are equal and opposite again. I don't see a problem here.

With speed glue, constant release of VOCs will keep the sponge from being compressed (i.e. it keeps expanding the sponge), which is why you get the doming.

I don't understand what "constant release of VOCs" means, but if you take any book on polymer physics, it'll tell you, that basically VOCs are "good solvents" for elastomers, which expand in such medium. Once VOCs evaporate there's no more expansion of the sponge due to solvent, your rubber returns to the previous equilibrium and loses its properties.

When you glue the sponge onto a rigid object (i.e. the blade), you forcibly compress the sponge back to flat thus increasing the pressure of the air bubbles within the sponge, and the VOC's expanding force is now all absorbed by the topsheet. The combination of an over pressured sponge and a stretched topsheet is what makes speed glue and probably also boosters work.

Ah, air bubbles. I see.

 

[lodro]

When you glue the sponge onto a rigid object (i.e. the blade), you forcibly compress the sponge back to flat thus increasing the pressure of the air bubbles within the sponge, and the VOC's expanding force is now all absorbed by the topsheet. The combination of an over pressured sponge and a stretched topsheet is what makes speed glue and probably also boosters work.

I can follow your train of thought but wonder ..................
I always consider the doming as just a nuisance. When I first read the "howto" for boosters they emphasized the long time needed between layers of boosting if I remember it was over 8h.
Then the last layer was supposed to be left alone for 24hours.
At this stage the chemical reaction in the sponge is finished, the dome has flattened out again and both sponge and top rubber have swollen and/or stretched in unison.
Then the boosted unit is glued on to the blade.
To force and glue a still domed rubber on to the blade seems questionable practice to me.
What do you think ? It would then mean we have both a chemical and a mechanical boosting going on, the mechanical part being the compressing of your air bubbles and the additional stretching of the top "around the sponge, right ???

I am quite sure that I miss something here. 😁

 

[dingyibvs]

Well yes, otherwise your sponge would grow indefinitely or shrink into nothingness, but this is trivial. When you pump a "good solvent", a booster, into the sponge, it starts to expand until it's equilibrated by the topsheet's stretch. The new equilibrium is the state where the sponge is expanded, and the topsheet is stretched by this sponge. In this new equilibrium all your forces are equal and opposite again. I don't see a problem here.


I don't understand what "constant release of VOCs" means, but if you take any book on polymer physics, it'll tell you, that basically VOCs are "good solvents" for elastomers, which expand in such medium. Once VOCs evaporate there's no more expansion of the sponge due to solvent, your rubber returns to the previous equilibrium and loses its properties.

Ah, air bubbles. I see.

We're explaining the same thing. I think my post sounded like contradicting what you said, but I just wanted to expand on it. I wanted to point out that while permanent stretching can be achieved, permanent tension cannot be without a rigid object involved.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

after hearing your description, I'll say hallehluyah! Thank god for ESN! Praise be to God!

It is like going from Manual to Automatic Transmission in cars!

ESN is factory boosted, like the MX-P you like, it won't last 1 month before its useless

 

[NextLevel]

ESN is factory boosted, like the MX-P you like, it won't last 1 month before its useless

I did read in a discussion on mytt that MX-D is more stable. Not that I care these days but maybe people who like slightly harder sponge and don't like MX-P because the booster doesn't last might do okay with MX-D.

 

[igorponger]

Thread 'Sticky rubbhers -- some wonder of chemical science.' https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/sticky-rubbers-some-wonder-of-chemical-science.25260/

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