Don't blame the rubber if you don't get enough spin.

[UpSideDownCarl]

OK, so (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you are saying that choosing the right equipment initially, is the most important thing (or a very important thing, if not *the most* important)?

Isn't that comment just super..... obvious? It's like telling someone they will only improve if they hold the right end of the bat.

But it would still only work if you follow your very strict advise on who should play with what.....

Over 40's? Get in the PIMPLES line! 😂

If you were a coach/TT recruitment extraordinaire, you could follow your methodology, put people into little boxes and I'm sure you'd have success in generalizing the players.

But I know plenty of young, athletic, VERY good players who play with pimples, and lots of old, less athletic players who are capable of looping on both wings (some of whom didn't start playing until they were an adult).

And as for the "same level" comment, again..... Surely that's just obvious? Who is saying that equipment doesn't matter if 2 players of equal ability face off against each other?

Lastly, your video.

If you truly wanted to make a positive contribution to this forum (and this applies to you more than others, as your borderline trolling can either be taken as pure passion, or out and out trolling), then you'd record 30 seconds and upload it.

It doesn't really matter if you are good or bad.

If you are good, your points will carry the weight of someone who can back up what they are saying at a personal level.

If you are bad, you can still make those points, but you'll be doing so knowing the forum knows your playing level.

And I suspect you'll be far less opinionated if that were to to be known.

Just for context NDH, in 1998, when James Z stopped playing in sanctioned USATT tournaments, which, I believe was after the aspect ratio rule he likes to talk about from 1998, James Z was a decently high level player. I can't remember what the rating was. But if my memory, from years ago is close enough to the mark, it was somewhere between 1950 and 2200.

Now, that still does not show us how he plays. But that information may give you a little context.

 

[NDH]

Just for context NDH, in 1998, when James Z stopped playing in sanctioned USATT tournaments, which, I believe was after the aspect ratio rule he likes to talk about from 1998, James Z was a decently high level player. I can't remember what the rating was. But if my memory, from years ago is close enough to the mark, it was somewhere between 1950 and 2200.

Now, that still does not show us how he plays. But that information may give you a little context.

OK, that's useful - Info like that is always helpful to some extent.

I don't know the USATT system well enough, but I appreciate you have to have a decent understanding of the game to achieve a 2000 level.

James, I fear your POV may be dictated by outdated thoughts, and it's virtually impossible to keep up to speed with the modern game by watching from the sidelines.

Either way, your opinion is yours, and I respect you for standing behind it.

However, when you make such strong opinions, you must expect others to poke holes in it (as Lazer did).

You can't just ignore all of the evidence which suggests your way of thinking is wrong (even if a lot of what you are saying is right, unless you word it in a way that is open to the nuances of the sport, you'll always look blinkered in your approach).

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

OK, that's useful - Info like that is always helpful to some extent.

I don't know the USATT system well enough, but I appreciate you have to have a decent understanding of the game to achieve a 2000 level.

James, I fear your POV may be dictated by outdated thoughts, and it's virtually impossible to keep up to speed with the modern game by watching from the sidelines.

Either way, your opinion is yours, and I respect you for standing behind it.

However, when you make such strong opinions, you must expect others to poke holes in it (as Lazer did).

You can't just ignore all of the evidence which suggests your way of thinking is wrong (even if a lot of what you are saying is right, unless you word it in a way that is open to the nuances of the sport, you'll always look blinkered in your approach).

I guess, more info: I am pretty sure James Z still plays. I could be wrong. But that he does not participate in USATT sanctioned tournaments does not say much about whether he plays or not.

In 2014 I believe he was running a club. Back then he made some posts about continuing to use the celluloid ball at his club. At his club, he also ran tournaments that were specifically and purposefully unsanctioned tournaments. Part of his not playing in sanctioned tournaments is a protest to those rule changes.

So, it is very possible that, although JZ is 25 years older than he was in 1998, he could be anything from a) a similar level, b) better or c) not as good as (any range of this).

BTW: that these issues are still top of mind for JZ indicates to me that he probably still plays TT or he would not care so much about the ways in which the game has changed.

One thing that I would say on JZ's side of the ledger: if I watch TT from the 1990s, you see many unique styles of play at a very high level that are successful from lobbers, to chop blockers, to choppers and that, even the top offensive players would frequently end up backed up from the table playing a defensive game and seeing if they could get back into the rally.

To me, today's top TT players, well, in many ways they are amazing. But it seems like the cookie cutter mold is a little one-size-fits-all where, so many of the successful top players are playing the same one style of all out offense.

 

[brokenball]

USDC, why do you let these people distract the topic?
They are wasting my time. Is that what you want?
I try to come up with a simple case that isn't too hard to understand, and the distractors say it isn't valid because I haven't taken into account the pull of the moon.
Also, those that say the model is wrong and doesn't take into account the pull of the moon are right but does it make a difference to how much spin one can create with a dead rubber.
The point I was trying to make is that one can get plenty of spin with a dead or non-elastic rubber.
It might take more effort but it can't still be done.

Now I am waiting for blahness to explain if the ball will roll off the paddle slide off the paddle.

 

[NextLevel]

I think it makes sense to put your money where your mouth is, brokenball. How much are you willing to risk on the idea that I cannot beat you with a 7 handicap in a best of 7 match?

 

[brokenball]

I think it makes sense to put your money where your mouth is, brokenball. How much are you willing to risk on the idea that I cannot beat you with a 7 handicap in a best of 7 match?

Is that how you compensate for you pea brain?
Show us you can do the simplest of calculations? Explain why a ball will roll off an almost horizontal paddle. If you were any good you could provide a differential equation. Does it make any difference if the rubber is elastic or not in this example?

 

[Choosikick]

Is that how you compensate for you pea brain?
Show us you can do the simplest of calculations? Explain why a ball will roll off an almost horizontal paddle. If you were any good you could provide a differential equation. Does it make any difference if the rubber is elastic or not in this example?

This is a table tennis forum, how can writing differential equations help in a match?

 

[Dr Evil]

This is a table tennis forum, how can writing differential equations help in a match?

"...of all the ways to learn to better throw and bat a ball, an academic study of the mechanics of the actions must be the least useful." - from an excellent book called "The Physics of Baseball," by Robert Adair.

It's an interesting subject if you like that sort of thing, though many analytical results are "hardly better than carefully considered guesses," such as how backspin affects the distance a fly ball travels. Physical reality has an entertaining way of pulling the rug out from under physicists and engineers too sure of simple models.

 

[NextLevel]

Is that how you compensate for you pea brain?
Show us you can do the simplest of calculations? Explain why a ball will roll off an almost horizontal paddle. If you were any good you could provide a differential equation. Does it make any difference if the rubber is elastic or not in this example?

Wait, you said I can't beat you with a handicap of 7 points. We can resolve this with a match. No arguments. Just a match, best of 7, with objectively demonstrable results. No argument or theory.

Like I said, I have too much success doing many things in life to put much value in your estimate of my intelligence. And you can value your intelligence as muchas you want or write great equations. This is a table tennis forum and you claim to understand and play table tennis at a decent level. I am giving you a chance to demonstrate this.

So let's try again - since you claim I can't beat you with a handicap of 7‐pts, it should be easy for you to embarrass me and show that I am way off. How much are you willing to put behind this proposition? Can you write an equation to show why I cant beat you with a 7pt handicap since you are so sure it is impossible? I am giving you an opportunity to demonstrate the skill. Since you have gotten better results with handicaps against better players than myself, this should be pretty easy.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

I am older now but not as stupid as you. Do you know that a 7 ball handicap is what you would give a person 731 points below you? That is a lot. Now it difference is different if it is 3/5 or 4/7. Do you know how to calculate the difference or are you just that stupid? You reputation as an engineer is trashed because you can't answer the simplest question.

Since NL is willing to give you such a big handicap, why not accept it? Humiliate him, destroy him, annihilate him, obliterate him etc. ( I have ran out of vocabulary, sorry ) Oh! Don't forget to video it.

After all this is a TT forum, we could not care less about who has engineering degree, masters or doctorate bla bla bla.... However, good sirs, we would very much be interested to spectate TT match.

Come on, Peter ol'chap, be a good sport!

 

[NextLevel]

OK, that's useful - Info like that is always helpful to some extent.

I don't know the USATT system well enough, but I appreciate you have to have a decent understanding of the game to achieve a 2000 level.

James, I fear your POV may be dictated by outdated thoughts, and it's virtually impossible to keep up to speed with the modern game by watching from the sidelines.

Either way, your opinion is yours, and I respect you for standing behind it.

However, when you make such strong opinions, you must expect others to poke holes in it (as Lazer did).

You can't just ignore all of the evidence which suggests your way of thinking is wrong (even if a lot of what you are saying is right, unless you word it in a way that is open to the nuances of the sport, you'll always look blinkered in your approach).

NDH,

Actually, my experience in life and business tells me that a lot of successful people do well by ignoring all the things that make their arguments untenable. As a great philosopher once said, it is easy to resolve a contradiction by making a distinction. So people end up making distinctions to avoid admitting that they are wrong and to protect their ego. Rather than trying to be substantive and to say things that have a material impact on the TT that people play. To be somewhat fair, I suspect evolution built these people so that there would be some conservative bias in the system.

 

[NDH]

NDH,

Actually, my experience in life and business tells me that a lot of successful people do well by ignoring all the things that make their arguments untenable. As a great philosopher once said, it is easy to resolve a contradiction by making a distinction. So people end up making distinctions to avoid admitting that they are wrong and to protect their ego. Rather than trying to be substantive and to say things that have a material impact on the TT that people play. To be somewhat fair, I suspect evolution built these people so that there would be some conservative bias in the system.

I don't dispute that method may work well in the real world, but in an online forum, those who opt to ignore the things that make their argument untenable, just look like trolls and fools.

It doesn't take much to see through people in this day and age - We (the people on these forums) can see through their BS from miles away.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I don't dispute that method may work well in the real world, but in an online forum, those who opt to ignore the things that make their argument untenable, just look like trolls and fools.

It doesn't take much to see through people in this day and age - We (the people on these forums) can see through their BS from miles away.

When you are your own boss and own your own company, nobody can tell you that you are wrong. Imagine that same person working for someone else and the scenario is different.

 

[rova]

These are from Top pros with the best technique and boosted Hurricanes though. At max effort in training situations, CNT players can go up to 130+rps no problems (see Fang Bo's channel). However, brokenball is saying that amateurs with a dead bat can produce 80 rev/s easily - which shows that he's missing something in his overly simplistic model.

Do you have a link to Fang Bo’s channel? Curious to explore it. 🙏

 

[brokenball]

This is a table tennis forum, how can writing differential equations help in a match?

It won't but I don't expect any of you to do differential equations but you should be able to compute how fast the ball roll off a not quite level paddle. No one on this forum can equate the speed at which the ball rolls off the paddle to how fast the ball is rotating and that is what is relevant to computer the spin after a tangential impact.

After all this is a TT forum, we could not care less about who has engineering degr
ee, masters or doctorate bla bla bla.... However, good sirs, we would very much be interested to spectate TT match.

You should care about the truth. You can generate enough spin with a dead rubber. One can generate even more spin with an elastic rubber. So why are there all the complaints about not getting enough spin. I am still waiting for someone to say why not. All I get it criticism because I haven't taken into account the pull of the moon. Everyone tries to make the problem way more difficult that what it is so they feel they have an excuse to play dumb.

So I am waiting for Zeio to explain where the extra 40 RPS come from. Note that even blahness called BS on the paper because he best Chinese males don't get that much. Especially on a "power drive" where most of the impact must be through the ball, not tangential.

I am waiting for blahness to explain why the TT ball will roll off a slightly non-level paddle. I will take anybody's answer just to see if there is anybody here that can't understand anything I say. I feel like I am wasting my time trying to make a VERY SIMPLE POINT.

I am still waiting for Nextlevel to show us any engineering ability and tell us where the 300% increase in tension is.
A TT paddle is not held in tension like the frame of a trampoline does or a bow.

I don't see what the problem is. If you don't think you generate enough spin it is your technique. Does that fact offend you? How much spin do you need and when?

You guys are hopeless. You believe the myths and lies on this forum without question.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Yadda yadda blah blah blah...

So are we getting to spectate the TT match or not? I couldn't care less about NL engineering expertise, this is a TT forum after all, and not an engineering forum. I have a PhD in using my hands to eat curry rice, dhosai & capati, but you do not see me lecturing you guys about it do you?

 

[blahness]

Do you have a link to Fang Bo’s channel? Curious to explore it. 🙏

Search for 全世爆 you'll find it.

 

[lodro]

I will take anybody's answer just to see if there is anybody here that can't understand anything I say. I

It is the teacher who is at fault when all of the students can not understand what he/she teaches.
A good teacher has acquired skills to teach the students, it is always assumed he/she knows more than the students.
If the teacher never manages, it is all just a wank and he/she gets fired or resigns.

Signed
the principal

 

[blahness]

If brokenball is serious about it, he should film himself generating 80rps on a 40+mm ball with a piece of wood (since surface doesn't matter) with a high speed camera. You can calculate the outgoing spin fairly straightforward from the camera frames.

If he can do it I'll eat my words

Otherwise this untested simplified model is plain wrong (being unable to simulate reality)

 

[brokenball]

If brokenball is serious about it, he should film himself generating 80rps on a 40+mm ball with a piece of wood (since surface doesn't matter)

You are a liar. I never said the surface doesn't matter.

with a high speed camera. You can calculate the outgoing spin fairly straightforward from the camera frames.
If he can do it I'll eat my words

I might be able to set that up. I have a high speed camera but first you need to tell me what is wrong with the formula and how fast must I swing a paddle to achieve 40 rps. I might have some old videos that will meet your requirement.
I have an old video where I am hitting the ball at the 45 degree or 1:30 mark with a pretty good swing. I wasn't trying to get maximum spin. You figure it out. The video is recorded at 2000 fps. The lighting is grainy because the shutter speed is very short. Each frame lasts only 500 microseconds. I could get more light if if had the shutter open the whole time but then the ball would look like a blur. I had the shutter open only 200 microseconds so each frame would be distinct. What you need to do is load the video file with VLC and look at the motion frame by frame to calculate the speed of the paddle and the ball and the rotation of the ball. The big issue is lighting. I was standing in front of 1500 W of halogen lamps. It was hot and the lamps were so bright that it was hard to see the ball.

I have a much better color high speed camera now

Otherwise this untested simplified model is plain wrong (being unable to simulate reality)

It isn't a model. It is just an equation. Are you that dense? What is wrong with the equation. Don't say it isn't perfect. No model is perfect but they can be closed enough where the difference doesn't matter.

You still haven't answer my question about if the ball rolls off a almost horizontal paddle. If you can't answer that, it is no wonder you and the rest of the forum is confused.