Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Der_Echte]

Hi GM,

We had a Ukranian young guy in his 20s come to the Big Tennis courts in a part of Sacramento heavily populated with Slavic people... he didn't speak much English and said he was master of sport in table tennis... (yes I play Big Tennis a couple times a week and many of the players at the courts are Ukrainian/Russian)

I was expecting him to be 2300 plus level... We got him to show up at First Slavic Church... but he turned out to be maybe 1500-1600 California USATT level... a good FH, not much of a BH, and much rust. Maybe he was away from TT for a few years, even so, he would have shown the decision making and basic shots. I will not accuse him of being fraudulent, but we were expecting a lot more. We would still welcome him if he shows up, I have a bat I prepared ready to give him, an ALC blade with some Tenergy rubbers just for him to keep.

Maybe he was a youth player with incomplete training for the team and was away a few years, it can happen.

There is another Ukrainian, he said he had a Tennis background... I saw his big tennis last year finally, beginning level, but his TT, was easily in top 20 percent of California players.

Hard to tell different standards around the world until you see them.

I would trust that you know your nation's players' standards, you have been around them for decades longer than me.

 

[blahness]

Recovered a lot from my cold and managed to really elevate my attacking level. Things I implemented today include a very heavy pure underspin / no spin serve combo. The huge advantage is that it almost shuts down the chiquita and forces the push-push game (my partner really loves his chiquita like me). I also found a way to vastly improve my FH windshield wiper flick. It's actually quite straightforward, you relax the index finger prior to contact so that it can be another lever to adjust for differences in spin that you detect before contact. This allowed me to deal with the really pesky reverse pendulum serves to the short FH (I really hate that serve). Still it's a pain to receive especially with the threat of the long fast serve to BH.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Hi GM,

We had a Ukranian young guy in his 20s come to the Big Tennis courts in a part of Sacramento heavily populated with Slavic people... he didn't speak much English and said he was master of sport in table tennis... (yes I play Big Tennis a couple times a week and many of the players at the courts are Ukrainian/Russian)

I was expecting him to be 2300 plus level... We got him to show up at First Slavic Church... but he turned out to be maybe 1500-1600 California USATT level... a good FH, not much of a BH, and much rust. Maybe he was away from TT for a few years, even so, he would have shown the decision making and basic shots. I will not accuse him of being fraudulent, but we were expecting a lot more. We would still welcome him if he shows up, I have a bat I prepared ready to give him, an ALC blade with some Tenergy rubbers just for him to keep.

Maybe he was a youth player with incomplete training for the team and was away a few years, it can happen.

There is another Ukrainian, he said he had a Tennis background... I saw his big tennis last year finally, beginning level, but his TT, was easily in top 20 percent of California players.

Hard to tell different standards around the world until you see them.

I would trust that you know your nation's players' standards, you have been around them for decades longer than me.

Interesting, I don’t think that master of sport is 1600 in usatt it’s almost impossible, let me show you, some master of sports play
Master of sport should be 2500 minimum, and above of that there is Master of sport world class those guys a 2700-2800, and usually they have competed worldwide and played as a pro

 

[NextLevel]

My coach has 2300+ elo at chess.com, but when he played against a GM, live match in our club (there is one dude that is master of sport in TT and GM in chess) - it’s was just like cat playing with a mouse - no chance at all 🙂
So yeah, there is a much of difference between 2300+ and 2500-2600

Chess.com ratings are a bit higher than regular over the board ELO even when adjusted for time control.

Interesting, I don’t think that master of sport is 1600 in usatt it’s almost impossible, let me show you, some master of sports play
Master of sport should be 2500 minimum

Zhmudenko is a master of sport? The first video is not viewable.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Chess.com ratings are a bit higher than regular over the board ELO even when adjusted for time control.

Zhmudenko is a master of sport? The first video is not viewable.

yes, he is Master of sport world class, but I just can not imagine that Master of sport is 1600, as I told they are 2500 minimum players - those are 0.1% of a players
Master of sport guy, from our club is winning Gauzy when they where cadets.
You can watch first video by clicking on it and moving to YouTube and watching it there, with no problem. The guy that Zhmudenko playing against (in orange Xiom shirt) is a master of sport. Does it looks like he have 1600?

 

[NextLevel]

yes, he is Master of sport world class, but it just can not imagine that Master of sport is 1600, as I told they are 2500 minimum players

So how many of them are there in Ukraine? Zhmudenko is like the best Ukrainian international player?

 

[SleepyMaster]

So how many of them are there in Ukraine? Zhmudenko is like the best Ukrainian international player?

There are many masters of sport, son of my coach is a master of sport and this is very respectful degree. The only problem, that most masters of sport are didn't have resources to train in outside of Ukraine with good and quality world class sparring partners. So they just keep they pretty high level but not growing much to became better for worldwide scene

 

[vvk1]

Here are the official requirements to be a master of sport in Ukraine (taken from https://tt-pro.com.ua/ua/articles/ukrainskie-normativy-po-nastolnomu-tennisu):

Pretty sure this would require one to be much much higher ranked than usatt 2000. 2500 could be even too low. Someone like that would not ever play at 1600 level unless post crippling injury.

 

[SleepyMaster]

So how many of them are there in Ukraine? Zhmudenko is like the best Ukrainian international player?

Zhmudenko is one of the best players, that are able to train outside with Harimoto and Ovtcharov, etc, there are others good players as well, as I told master of sport is 2500+ rating, besides mens, there are pro players womens, that mostly are playing in Bundesliga as a pro, but some of them training and living in Ukraine but playing on a descent international level - Pesotska, for example

 

[NextLevel]

Zhmudenko is one of the best players, that are able to train outside with Harimoto and Ovtcharov, etc, there are others good players as well, as I told master of sport is 2500+ rating, besides mens, there are pro players womens, that mostly are playing in Bundesliga as a pro, but some of them training and living in Ukraine but playing on a descent international level - Pesotska, for example

So who are the other names? I know Kou Lei and and Zhmudenko, but I cant remember any other Male players. I know Pesotska forever and I remember Gaponova (or is it Haponova) I think because she chops. But Women not really the focus here, trying to understand how the domestic level in Ukraine translates. Kou and Yaroslav are world class players (2700+), so it is better to look for typical players. Because using these examples makes Master of sport Ukrainian Champion.

 

[SleepyMaster]

So who are the other names? I know Kou Lei and and Zhmudenko, but I cant remember any other Male players. I know Pesotska forever and I remember Gaponova (or is it Haponova) I think because she chops. But Women not really the focus here, trying to understand how the domestic level in Ukraine translates. Kou and Yaroslav are world class players (2700+), so it is better to look for typical players. Because using these examples makes Master of sport Ukrainian Champion.

Ligas

ligas.io

Look here, all who rated about 60, and above, those are guys with a master of sport degree mostly. You can choose English language on a site.
But as I told, those guys are very good, but didn't have resources and sponsors to train and compete worldwide. But if they would, those are people with a lot of potential, without proper sparrings and other pro environment they just forever 2500-2600 players

 

[NextLevel]

Ligas

ligas.io

Look here, all who rated about 60, and above, those are guys with a master of sport degree mostly. You can choose English language on a site.
But as I told, those guys are very good, but didn't have resources and sponsors to train and compete worldwide. But if they would, those are people with a lot of potential, without proper sparrings and other pro environment they just forever 2500-2600 players

Yes, 2400-2700 makes sense. Can't believe I forgot about Bilenko.

To be honest, sponsors and resources don't always improve a player's level, and the ITTF system is a bit limiting on local players in the way it limits international representation, though that would just crowd out many domestic talented players with top Chinese/Asian players. You have to get to top 100 ranking to make money in table tennis and more resources don't get many players there. And of course, with all the Asian players and the ITTF rating system where points have continental contribution, top 100 ranking is not the same as top 100 level.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

When he made this shot, I did a double take during the match in my own calm style and asked - how is this guy 2100?

just joined in this chat,

the thing is, 2100 or 2250 or 2300 or whatever he is, some parts of the game is higher, some parts of the game is lower. Then there is timing + luck + everything added together.
Maybe he isn't that high and he got that in on you, by chance, and other 9 tries, it will be off. Its really difficult to say

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Ligas

ligas.io

Look here, all who rated about 60, and above, those are guys with a master of sport degree mostly. You can choose English language on a site.
But as I told, those guys are very good, but didn't have resources and sponsors to train and compete worldwide. But if they would, those are people with a lot of potential, without proper sparrings and other pro environment they just forever 2500-2600 players

that is actually very interesting to look at.

USA spends so much private coaching money, and players are stuck around 2400~2550.
2600 is still nothing, they need to go 2650~2750 min and then it is still nothing on international.

What is important is to have a big pool of higher level players and good to see Ukraine having so many at say 2500+, that I assume are locals, and not just an imported (influx) in USA.
imported is not bad, but most of the imported Asians are not training to maintain or improve, so the level is constent, or dropping.

I was just having a conversation with 2 well known coaches, one in USA, and another in Taiwan, who both are very clued up with USA junior development and the money spent.
One kid spends 300k USD a year..... that is more than some proper pro's budget in a year.

So it is interesting to see or learn how Ukraine got to those levels, with so many. Especially from junior level side.
I don't know that much about European junior development, as much as I know of Asians and North Americans, so I am always eager to learn

 

[SleepyMaster]

Yes, 2400-2700 makes sense. Can't believe I forgot about Bilenko.

To be honest, sponsors and resources don't always improve a player's level, and the ITTF system is a bit limiting on local players in the way it limits international representation, though that would just crowd out many domestic talented players with top Chinese/Asian players. You have to get to top 100 ranking to make money in table tennis and more resources don't get many players there. And of course, with all the Asian players and the ITTF rating system where points have continental contribution, top 100 ranking is not the same as top 100 level.

Of course, the resources and sponsoring didn’t = guaranteed success. We know a lot of guys who has butterfly sponsorship, having best training camps for years, but never ever able to shine on a world scene, or even on a Bundesliga, for example.

But, it means a lot, any way. When you every day practice with Harimoto and Ovtcharov, then you constantly under pressure.

Or you are master of sport, that playing in our table tennis club, then you will able to beat 99,9% of people around you, that, for my humble opinion, not the best environment for the goals of improving - there is a lot more chances that you will progress more quickly, and be able to achieve more in the first type of environment, when you surrounded by the best in the world, and constantly pushing yourself, and your limits. It is, what it is.

 

[NextLevel]

just joined in this chat,

the thing is, 2100 or 2250 or 2300 or whatever he is, some parts of the game is higher, some parts of the game is lower. Then there is timing + luck + everything added together.
Maybe he isn't that high and he got that in on you, by chance, and other 9 tries, it will be off. Its really difficult to say

Well, he had other results that confirmed the assessment, in any case, everyone has parts of the game higher or lower, I am the one that played the match, I know how much I put on that ball. Rating in the end is about your results.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Btw, my goal is to achieve candidate in master of sport degree/level of play, that should be about 2200-2300, or 45-55 in our rating system.

That and above i consider, as a strong level of play. Will see, does I’m able to, and how much time it will take 🫡

 

[SleepyMaster]

Well, he had other results that confirmed the assessment, in any case, everyone has parts of the game higher or lower, I am the one that played the match, I know how much I put on that ball. Rating in the end is about your results.

When I play against my coach, and he had an master of sport rating, some time it doesn’t matter how much I put on the ball, if that move and the placement was obvious to him, he just counters it with correct bat angle, by reading game situation. My own spin, and speed/power that I have insert in the shot with some plus more, just comes back to me - and there almost nothing I can do about it. So he always teaching me, that I should expect, that the ball will coming back, no matter how much I insert in it.

Spin and power is very important, but on a higher levels, in my humble opinion, players just used to it, and they are dealing with it without a lot amount of troubles. Placement and ability to execute a shot, on exact part of the table, that opp expect the least - that skill became more important than just raw power/spin/speed

 

[NextLevel]

When I play against my coach, and he had an master of sport rating, some time it doesn’t matter how much I put on the ball, if that move and the placement was obvious to him, he just counters it with correct bat angle, by reading game situation. My own spin, and speed/power that I have insert in the shot with some plus more, just comes back to me - and there almost nothing I can do about it. So he always teaching me, that I should expect, that the ball will coming back, no matter how much I insert in it.

Spin and power is very important, but on a higher levels, players just used to it, and they are dealing with it without a lot amount of troubles. Placement and ability to execute a shot, on exact part of the table, that opp expect the least - that skill became more important than just raw power/spin/speed

No doubt, but you used the phrase on higher levels and you are speaking about your coach. I played 2, maybe 3 players, who used to do that shot on me almost all the time with that quality (they would cut deep and heavy into my forehand wide knowing they would get the shot). All 3 were 2300+ at some point, maybe I was lucky to beat 2 of them once ot twice in my best playing days (vs losing a lot of matches. And I mean a lot).

Because to beat those guys for me, everything has to be working and I have to most importantly be ready to get physical. That is the biggest part of precise placement and expecting the ball back, both of them require your movement and effort to be on point so you can give yourself placement options on every loose ball. The thing is I can play that way a couple of points if I am warmed up, delivering it for a whole match is the problem. A lot of it came from the amount of serve practice I did back then though, I could get a lot of opportunities to attack with the variations.

I don't have doubt that 2300 is possible for you, your brain just has to catch up with your stroke level and I suspect you have to be a bit more precise and varied on serve return but in the end, you have the most important thing, which is the ability to move to create the options. And of course you already know how to hit the ball. But reading the game is a matter of time, it is hard to see the ball or to even develop variation of service without seeing possibilities. But everything hits critical mass together and when it does, it is like someone flipped a switch. Good luck with it.

 

[NextLevel]

So I got out of work early yesterday and went to play. Weirdly an idea came to mind - I played some of my best TT while training early during the pandemic with a Carbonado 245 and Dignics 09c on both sides. I actually shaved the handle down so I could hold it the way I wanted to. And then I figured, so why can't I just use Golden Tango instead of 09c and see what happens?

I played a few matches and it was interesting for sure. I can see the difference between a really fast blade and regular carbon offensive blade like the Cybershape. With the Cybershape, the balls that I would drive with the technique I used on 245 kept sending the ball upwards with with Cybershape. Of course I have had this dilemma for a while but the one thing that makes the 245 unique is that while it is a fast blade, it is designed for arcing the ball. Not for direct hits. So you get more value playing topspins than smashes on balls but you definitely have to practice. I think the Cybershape probably would do better with something like Dignics 05 which is more direct, I suspect I am causing a lot of the trouble myself by putting on Golden Tango. But I have to train quite a bit and figure out what I really need to play well against the players I need to beat. Do I really need more power or more consistency? And what does it do for my serve return?

I really need to find coaching again.

I learned an old lesson the hard way again - if you keep trying to loop a short looking topspin ball early over the table and you are missing, it isn't short- wait for it to come long and you will make the short comfortably. It is hard. because the illusion of watching the ball bounce short in the table with the backspin fake followthrough makes you think it will stay short. But it will not. It will reliably come long. You just have to be patient and stop trying to jump on it, especially if you are clearly the stronger player and should be able to win in the rally, but the principle is true regardless because it is often a stronger player getting you to bite on such serves.

Hit a lot of balls, played six matches, won 4. Out of the six, 4 were physical and against 2 opponents twice, split 1‐1 with those guys using a setup I haven't even trained with before. So will give it some more run. This is a Holiday weekend so I am going to play a bit out of my mind. And maybe not forget my camera tomorrow lol.