"wrapping" the ball.

[blahness]

On the "wrapping" itself, what often gets missed is that it only happens during contact (or very close to contact) and continues during the followthrough. There's a couple of Ma Long slowmos that illustrates the sudden shaking of the racket from the pronation/supination during contact. From the majority of the backswing, it should be mainly trying to hit the ball square on to ensure max accuracy (the more tangential the contact is the more error prone the stroke is) and this is where the "convex" stroke comes in. It is only once you're just about to hit the ball that it transitions from a "convex" to a "concave" stroke - this is why I also don't like trying to distinguish it using these terms and a lot of ppl get confused (I used to be quite confused myself too) - make solid contact then brush is a lot simpler as an instruction and produces the same results.

Table tennis is a very complex sport with complex interactions and sometimes trying to simplify it using overly simple equations like what brokenball always tries to do are bound to fail. It's like trying to explain quantum mechanics using Newtonian laws - the theory simply breaks down.

 

[NextLevel]

These things are all best handled with a coach, but if you are an adult learner, you are your first coach, at least as important as a formal coach over time. None of us are going to be world class players, so the compromises involved must be understood. But again, no one is advocating anything that good players don't already do. That said, I have also seen the instruction not to wrap the ball lead to technical errors or limitations on forehand and backhand especially. Counterlooping heavy topspin early is extremely difficult without a concept of wrapping. Or even playing some hook shots - most of them involve wrapping. But the biggest one is playing topspin vs a semi high ball with a loop kill. People who don't aggressively wrap the ball on those shots tend to hit them long. But maybe wrapping is the wrong term but the bottom line is that people struggle when they are not taught how to adjust their technique to the ball to compensate for incoming spin. Racket angle is often an incomplete answer. Telling them to play over the ball more or up on the ball more can be a good solution, while almost always playing/finishing forward or past thr ball.

My vote is for beginner and intermediate players, stick to an angle and not try to wrap the ball. Yes ok to follow through but no need to wrap a ball. Advanced players, they can do whatever pleases them.

 

[turbozed]

How does one even pick and stick to a single angle for something like a FH stroke when there is body rotation and the stroke is going from right to left as well as up and forwards?

Keeping your arm loose, then snapping to a salute with the proper weight transfer produces a natural elipse shape rather than a single angle line, which further adds to 'wrapping the ball.' I've heard this advocated by a few coaches and a good explanation I found recently in this video:

Wouldn't a conscious effort to maintain a single angle throughout the FH at least in this case encourage tenseness in the shoulder and lead to a more unnatural movement pattern compared to the ellipse shape? Cueing this ellipse shape also seems to be a better solution for coming over the top of higher balls like the ones @NextLevel mentions. So it seems like a more all-purpose approach?

 

[brokenball]

It is only once you're just about to hit the ball that it transitions from a "convex" to a "concave" stroke

This is nuts! How do you manage that?
What bothers me is that no one challenges this non-sense.

- this is why I also don't like trying to distinguish it using these terms and a lot of ppl get confused (I used to be quite confused myself too) - make solid contact then brush is a lot simpler as an instruction and produces the same results.

This is also nuts. Again, how do you go from making a solid contact to brushing? Explain millisecond by millisecond. It won't take long since the ball is only in contact for about one millisecond.

Table tennis is a very complex sport with complex interactions and sometimes trying to simplify it using overly simple equations like what brokenball always tries to do are bound to fail. It's like trying to explain quantum mechanics using Newtonian laws - the theory simply breaks down.

This is what TT forum members always seem to do. Make things MUCH more complicated than they need to be so they feel justified in staying ignorant because they say the truth is too complicated. Now they don't feel bad if they don't know and they have an excuse for being ignorant.

 

[brokenball]

How does one even pick and stick to a single angle for something like a FH stroke when there is body rotation and the stroke is going from right to left as well as up and forwards?

You don't until just before the ball may hit the paddle. Then the attitude of the paddle should remain as constant as possible so an early or late contact will not have the ball going in two widely different directions.

Keeping your arm loose, then snapping to a salute with the proper weight transfer produces a natural elipse shape rather than a single angle line, which further adds to 'wrapping the ball.' I've heard this advocated by a few coaches and a good explanation I found recently in this video:

Wrapping the ball can not be timed well enough. After the ball is hit it makes no difference it you roll your wrist.

Wouldn't a conscious effort to maintain a single angle throughout the FH at least in this case encourage tenseness in the shoulder and lead to a more unnatural movement pattern compared to the ellipse shape?

The attitude of the paddle doesn't NEED TO BE CONSTANT DURING THE WHOLE STROKE! Just during the time the ball and may be hit by the paddle.

 

[brokenball]

These things are all best handled with a coach, but if you are an adult learner, you are your first coach, at least as important as a formal coach over time.

Some are good players but if they have spent their time playing TT then maybe they know how to play TT better than me.

None of us are going to be world class players,

We agree on something.

But again, no one is advocating anything that good players don't already do.

Are you saying this is standard technique and not really so complicated?

That said, I have also seen the instruction not to wrap the ball lead to technical errors or limitations on forehand and backhand especially.

What limitations?

Counterlooping heavy topspin early is extremely difficult without a concept of wrapping.

Counter looping requires precise timing and anticipation because:
1 A good loop will shoot out low and fast. So this must be anticipated.
2 When closing the paddle to make a good counter loop, the effective area of the paddle becomes smaller.

My first coach an I would do FH-FH warms which soon degenerated in FH to FH counter loop matches. If I am going to talk about counterlooping, I should probably post some new footage of me counterlooping, shouldn’t I?

Or even playing some hook shots - most of them involve wrapping.

Now I am asking the same old questions.
How much of the ball are you "wrapping" if the contact time is only about 1 millisecond? Do you really call that wrapping?
What happens if you hit the ball a millisecond before or a millisecond after the optimal point?

But the biggest one is playing topspin vs a semi high ball with a loop kill.

If there is a line of site shot you don't need to loop. Since I am fairly low level I just don’t understand the value of spinning the ball when playing someone of a fairly high level.

Maybe I should learn how to loop. And maybe we need to define what a loop really is.
The Chinese describe it as more of a brushed ball like
"pull ball"
拉球
Lā qiú
Pronounced La Cho. Cho means ball. One day I will learn how to do this.

When I was in China people would say Hao Cho or good ball to complement a good shot.

People who don't aggressively wrap the ball on those shots tend to hit them long.

But maybe wrapping is the wrong term but the bottom line is that people struggle when they are not taught how to adjust their technique to the ball to compensate for incoming spin.

That is easy, more incoming spin requires a more closed paddle when play with inverted.

Racket angle is often an incomplete answer.

Yes, there is the angle incidence too.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I was kind of hoping BrokenBall could make a video of him doing the first exercise Marcos Freitas does in the video above so we can see a little bit of that fine motor control he undoubtedly has over the blade face of his racket.

If he can do any of the other exercises for developing control of the blade face shown in Freitas's video, that would also be good to see.

 

[JJ Ng]

This is nuts! How do you manage that?
What bothers me is that no one challenges this non-sense.


This is also nuts. Again, how do you go from making a solid contact to brushing? Explain millisecond by millisecond. It won't take long since the ball is only in contact for about one millisecond.


This is what TT forum members always seem to do. Make things MUCH more complicated than they need to be so they feel justified in staying ignorant because they say the truth is too complicated. Now they don't feel bad if they don't know and they have an excuse for being ignorant.

I believe people should hit and brush the ball at the same time. That is called a loop drive.

 

[NextLevel]

Anyone who has seen you hit the ball knows that most of what you are writing is delusional rationalization based on your low level understanding of table tennis. Post video of you executing loops if you actually believe you can loop.

Let's take an actual example of a high level player executing a countertopspin close to the table and describing the exact phenomenon I spoke about and which you are deriding based on your ignorance. Your thoughts are welcome.

Some are good players but if they have spent their time playing TT then maybe they know how to play TT better than me.


We agree on something.


Are you saying this is standard technique and not really so complicated?


What limitations?


Counter looping requires precise timing and anticipation because:
1 A good loop will shoot out low and fast. So this must be anticipated.
2 When closing the paddle to make a good counter loop, the effective area of the paddle becomes smaller.

My first coach an I would do FH-FH warms which soon degenerated in FH to FH counter loop matches. If I am going to talk about counterlooping, I should probably post some new footage of me counterlooping, shouldn’t I?


Now I am asking the same old questions.
How much of the ball are you "wrapping" if the contact time is only about 1 millisecond? Do you really call that wrapping?
What happens if you hit the ball a millisecond before or a millisecond after the optimal point?


If there is a line of site shot you don't need to loop. Since I am fairly low level I just don’t understand the value of spinning the ball when playing someone of a fairly high level.

Maybe I should learn how to loop. And maybe we need to define what a loop really is.
The Chinese describe it as more of a brushed ball like
"pull ball"
拉球
Lā qiú
Pronounced La Cho. Cho means ball. One day I will learn how to do this.

When I was in China people would say Hao Cho or good ball to complement a good shot.

 

[blahness]

This is nuts! How do you manage that?
What bothers me is that no one challenges this non-sense.


This is also nuts. Again, how do you go from making a solid contact to brushing? Explain millisecond by millisecond. It won't take long since the ball is only in contact for about one millisecond.


This is what TT forum members always seem to do. Make things MUCH more complicated than they need to be so they feel justified in staying ignorant because they say the truth is too complicated. Now they don't feel bad if they don't know and they have an excuse for being ignorant.

I want to post some slowmos of Ovtcharov and also Lin Shidong which adopts this kind of BH stroke structure most visibly. They start with a closed angle, contact the ball at a more open angle (hit) and then it gradually closes as they rotate through the ball (wrapping).

This is also supported by zeio's many papers.

It's funny because you claim to be an engineer but are only willing to entertain high school physics, and anything more complicated just goes over your head? Something doesn't really match here.

Maybe you're not as smart as you think you are, and should be a bit more humble and reexamine yourself before hurling insults at people and claim that other ppl are stupid

 

[brokenball]

I want to post some slowmos of Ovtcharov and also Lin Shidong which adopts this kind of BH stroke structure most visibly. They start with a closed angle, contact the ball at a more open angle (hit) and then it gradually closes as they rotate through the ball (wrapping).

This is also supported by zeio's many papers.

What papers?

It's funny because you claim to be an engineer but are only willing to entertain high school physics, and anything more complicated just goes over your head? Something doesn't really match here.

It seems that I lose everyone if I go deeper.

How much of the ball gets "wrapped"?
What happens if you hit the ball a millisecond too early or too late? Is your timing that good? is anybody's timing that good.

Maybe you're not as smart as you think you are, and should be a bit more humble and reexamine yourself before hurling insults at people and claim that other ppl are stupid

I didn't insult anybody, I just asked questions that you can't answer.

The video in #89 shows the player going "down on the ball" long after the ball has left the paddle. He isn't looping. He is just hitting the ball. Listened to the contact. If he were brushing or looping the sound wouldn't be as sharp.

 

[NextLevel]

A lot of this stuff on the pedagogy side can be tested and learned through self-multiball or hitting loops out of your hand, or after bouncing them off the table/floor. Try to play around with the ball trajectory and spin and see whether the way you shape your stroke affects the ball trajectory. Then figure out what the implications are for adjusting to spin while remaining consistent with the same general technique. You can do it with windmill loops though the timing demands can be a bit advanced there since you may lose sight of the ball getting a big enough backswing if you aren't used to setting up the feet properly before swinging. You have a chance to see what happens independent of incoming spin. Then you can play around with how affects the balls you play when you get pushes and when you get topspin balls. It is the simplest way to learn to use one swing against a wide variety of balls. Though of course, you will likely have to make adaptations to the swing to adjust to more balls.

The superpower of topspin is that once you learn it, you can topspin any ball if you learn to adapt your stroke to the incoming spin. For most amateurs who want to improve, this is the holy grail and just focusing on it gives good results. In reality many of them who get really good won't topspin everything and may play flat more often because flat has speed and isnt as easy to just block back with quality though it can be inconsistent. But if someone has a consistent quality topspin, and it is reasonably possible for many adult players, a player should be at least USATT 1500‐1600 and the rest is determined by things like athletic ability, ball reading and playing against and adapting to faster players (including those who mess with your tempo).

What papers? Show me the beef!

It seems that I lose everyone if I go deeper.
So hot shot. Show me where I am wrong?
Also, answer my questions?
How much of the ball gets "wrapped"?
What happens if you hit the ball a millisecond too early or too late? Is your timing that good? is anybody's timing that good.



I didn't insult anybody, I just asked questions that you can't answer. If you feel stupid then that is your problem.
Admit it, you can't really wrap the ball and trying to do so is very error prone due to timing. There is no way one can hit the ball then brush. Long ago Baal established it takes many millisecond for the contact to be felts.

The video in #89 shows the player going "down on the ball" long after the ball has left the paddle. He isn't looping. He is just hitting the ball. Listened to the contact. If he were brushing or looping the sound wouldn't be as sharp.

Again I like this post because anyone talking about the sound of the contact (and not the sound relative to a flat hit)with modern high speed equipment doesn't understand high level table tennis. It's the reason why he thinks that you don't need to topspin a high ball. In case language is an impediment here, loop is used by me to describe all kinds of spinny balls, not just slow heavy topspins. I wouldn't include the inverted flat drive. But you can have heavy spin on fast balls, it is just the trajectory is lower

What is interesting is that even after Baal made his claim, he and others also talked about the use of feedback to improve one's timing and that even if hit and brush were literally impossible as a description of reality, it is possible that the whole process improves the timing applied through a form of reinforcement learning and that anticipation of the ball with experience allowed this process to literally work even if the feedback wasn't aligned with the physics. Again, it isn't just important to claim the physics is wrong, one has to be able to explain why the traditional instructions given to players works or why players describe their feeling a certain way. Otherwise one can be somewhat right and completely unhelpful by destroying TT pedagogy. Which it is hard to appreciate if you have never even hit a ball or coached someone else to hit a ball at the level of competence that you are trying to insightfully critique.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

What happens if you hit the ball a millisecond too early or too late? Is your timing that good? is anybody's timing that good.

I have a feeling that when you are able to demonstrate a little fraction of the control of the blade face that is shown by Marcos Freitas in the first several exercises in the video above, then you will be better positioned to talk about subjects that concern a higher degree of control in how you contact the ball.

BrokenBall: I do have a question that I have a feeling you probably could answer: can you explain the physics behind what is happening in the second exercise that in this video is labeled "Backspin Catcher"? How is it possible for the ball to make hundreds and hundreds of contacts with the rubber that must be factions of fractions of microseconds long while keeping the ball from shooting off and any number of directions while instead the ball seems to maintain contact on the rubber's surface? What is the physics behind how he does that?

 

[turbozed]

When the racket contacts a ball near perpenicular , is it not a flat hit with minimal dwell time , something like a short pips (on strong side) hitter uses , unlike a looper or chopper who wants a near tangential contact with maximum dwell time ?

Yes the dwell time is minimal and makes the technique very difficult to perform unless a tacky and hard-sponged rubber is used. There's a good video about this specific 'crush and brush' technique on the WRM Youtube channel featuring Coach Meng (a former Chinese player).

No explanation is given as to why it works, but given the fact that you have to hit the ball very hard and time the brush to the moment of contact, my guess is that dwell time is increased greatly by the combination of tackiness, the more time needed to penetrate a harder sponge, increased deformation of the ball itself, and the wrapping effect of the blade during contact. And it doesn't work if you're missing any of those pieces. Even the coach had a hard time achieving the shot consistently in the video.

Edit: Here's the clip of where Coach Meng is demonstrating the 'crush and brush' technique where he's describing a type of FH stroke a more open, perpendicular blade angle (turn on subtitles):

To me this looks like looping with perpendicular contact.

 

[blahness]

Yes the dwell time is minimal and makes the technique very difficult to perform unless a tacky and hard-sponged rubber is used. There's a good video about this specific 'crush and brush' technique on the WRM Youtube channel featuring Coach Meng (a former Chinese player).

No explanation is given as to why it works, but given the fact that you have to hit the ball very hard and time the brush to the moment of contact, my guess is that dwell time is increased greatly by the combination of tackiness, the more time needed to penetrate a harder sponge, increased deformation of the ball itself, and the wrapping effect of the blade during contact. And it doesn't work if you're missing any of those pieces. Even the coach had a hard time achieving the shot consistently in the video.

With the "brush" part, you need to imagine "rolling" over the ball after the "crush" (ie strong hit). The dwell time is less but the dwell "distance" is a bit more.

Coach is missing a lot because he lacks practice, but if he practiced it a bit more he will land it the majority of the time. Loopkilling against strong backspin with good percentages is not easy at all.

 

[blahness]

When the racket contacts a ball near perpenicular , is it not a flat hit with minimal dwell time , something like a short pips (on strong side) hitter uses , unlike a looper or chopper who wants a near tangential contact with maximum dwell time ?

No - you can wrap around the top of the ball similar to wrapping around the side in a hook loop. In fact you can even generate strong topspin when contacting the bottom of the ball, as long as you roll it forward. This is the modern looping technique. Tangential contacts are very prone to timing errors and are not used that much these days (with the exception of maybe Timo Boll who is blessed with immense hawk like eyesight).

 

[blahness]

All of the above has NOTHING to do with your statement about contacting the ball at a perpendicular angle.
There are also other errors in your above post & aI won't address them because you will go off totally somewhere ese & I have learned not to reply to your completely off base posts . I should not have responded. My fault

Lol I put that because if you understand how to generate heavy topspin contacting the bottom of the ball, you will understand how a perpendicular contact can still generate heavy topspin and is not necessarily a flat hit.

 

[blahness]

Hook loop is one of best shots as I am to create a ridiculous amount of side spin & top spin. I agree you contact at the bottom of the ball but also towards the right of the ball for a forehand hook loop by a righthander like me. But the racket at no time is moving in a near perpendicular angle when contacting the ball & ball has a high dwell time due to this tangential motion. The ball is being brushed in a loop, in any kind of loop.

Spin direction is relative. If you rotate the swing path of the hook loop by maybe 45 degrees you get the "wrapping" topspin.

I can do both of these and it's all about the swing path and where I contact the ball.

 

[turbozed]

Isn't that wrapping in hook loops) the only thing we are talking about in this thread ?
Nothing to do with perpendicular contact as with a short pips hitter flat hitting the ball with minimal dwell time.

Come again with more misleading explanations. We can go in circles till cows come home but I will keep returning to the same fact that which perpendicular conatct has nothing to do with wrapping

I posted the video of what I understand as "wrapping" here. The coach does a good job of describing the perpendicular contact and concurrent brush technique. Please watch and let me know what you think.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wrapping-the-ball.31447/post-414348

 

[brokenball]

Table tennis is a very complex sport with complex interactions and sometimes trying to simplify it using overly simple equations like what brokenball always tries to do are bound to fail. It's like trying to explain quantum mechanics using Newtonian laws - the theory simply breaks down.

non-sense. This is another example of saying everything is too complicated.