I wanna play with the big boys!

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Naaah, you don’t get it do you.

I don’t give a damn about ratings and points. I PLAY FOR THE FUN OF IT… 😉

Cheers
L-zr

I get what you saying, but I also think you are sidetracked, since we are not talking about you.....
Go check post #1 (paste for your ease of reference)


I'm a 62 year old who is playing at a USATT level of 1300. I want to play at the club's A-league, which is a minimum 1500 rating.
What do I need to do to get to 1500 and beyond?

thanks in advance!


Here is my 2nd pointer
2) get a coach and focus on areas that "wins" points

So, we talking about him, not you
Unless you are also 1300? lol
But if you want to talk about boring or fun, do start your own thread.

JJ NG is right by telling OP to work on his serves, since its 11 points to win, and 6 to 11 of them could be the results of a good serve

 

[Lazer]

I get what you saying, but I also think you are sidetracked, since we are not talking about you.....

And still you quote me 🤣🤣🤣

Cheers
L-zr

 

[piligrim]

I know, but I play for not to win, and winning on serve is boooring…

Cheers
L-zr

Also after 1-2 games people get used to your serves and you won't win points from servers. So servers it's only temporary solution

 

[NextLevel]

Also after 1-2 games people get used to your serves and you won't win points from servers. So servers it's only temporary solution

There are levels to getting used to serves so serve improvement is usually serve and third ball improvement. Sometimes getting the serve back on the table is enough, but with reasonable practice, the third ball will place pressure on the returner to tighten the return. Very few players as you get better win off just good serves, the pressure of the third ball and the need to tighten the return are what make the seve more effective.

I really don't know anyone who wants to get better who serves to get into rallies, sounds more like a rationalization than a serious approach to winning points.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

And still you quote me 🤣🤣🤣

Cheers
L-zr

i'm trying to make you not confused.
not everything is about you, you know.
I'm here to help OP
and now i'm trying to help you figure out you are not OP
That seems to be more difficult than helping OP
lol

 

[Lazer]

well, short cut to get to 1500 quickly, you will need it

You are confusing yourself…

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

You are confusing yourself…

well, look at the likes on my posts to you.

 

[Lazer]

well, look at the likes on my posts to you.

🤣🤣🤣

 

[NextLevel]

All jokes aside, improved serving is the quickest way to get to play with players above your level. But it takes just as much time and coaching as anything else, the difference is that the impact on points is immediate and the better players will do things that force you to do more. But the good thing is that if you have the ability and work on it seriously, you can do most of the work by yourself and it will translate quickly to match results when a threshold gets hit.

 

[IB66]

Serve and serve receive are very important, as are many things in table tennis!!

If you can learn to serve with quality, variation and deception then you can put the opponent under extreme pressure, before you even serve!!

Learning to read spin when receiving is also crucial, if you receive well, then you can put the server under pressure!!

Higher standard players can receive serves better, they can return more consistently, but the quality of receive has to be very high. This is what NL was hinting at, for example low and tight to the net, so bounce remains low. Pro’s deal In mm, we’ll almost!! If the return bounce is 10mm higher than what the receiver wanted, their the opponent will see this as an attacking opportunity.
So what we see as a player returning serves 95% of the time, actually doesn’t mean they haven’t made any errors returning the serve!! There are smaller margins for errors the higher the standard.

 

[blahness]

Agreed with all the posts here that serving is crucial to reach a higher level. If you're not using good serves it's like playing with a handicap vs players who serve well.

One key point that very few ppl talk about, is the use of the body rotation and weight transfer in serves - it is absolutely crucial to 1) serve with a lot more spin 2) serve fast long with heavy spin with the exact same small movement (you can't do it with just arm), 3) recover in time for the 3rd ball - the weight transfer itself also provides power to return to ready position
4) serve with smaller arm movement and more suddenness - this will make it even harder to read.

Wrist and fingers to control the spin type, the body to provide power and control the ball

After that you have to think about how to disguise the serve. It takes a lot of magician type thinking with fake movements and illusions. I found it very useful to serve in front of a mirror to ensure that i can serve with multiple spin types with close to the same movement (as viewed by your opponent).

Then you have to develop control to be able to serve to all corners with different lengths (fast long, half long, short) for max effectiveness.

it's a bit like in tennis - some good servers just go through the games just serving big boom serves and then 3rd ball to win. No shame in that - your opponent has to prove that his receiving is up to par in order to earn the right to go into the rally.

Receiving well is another story and much harder than serving.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl, when we were both in our mid to late 40s, you saw me visit NYC, what level I said i was, and what I played... plus what I knew or didn't know...

You credited me with vastly under-stating my level or abilities.

You have not seen me play much in the last 5-7 years. As a player and a coach, i am WAY ahead of where I was in the early 2010s.

And Yes, I am getting to be near 60 too, and with those hard miles on my body and the terrible chems I had to eat and be around, it take a toll to... I feel ya.

And yet, two of your infamous nicknames are "High Toss Serve Bastard" and "Rambo Looping SOB"!!!!!!

We won't talk about what that guy BHMan from MyTT says about you!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Naaah, you don’t get it do you.

I don’t give a damn about ratings and points. I PLAY FOR THE FUN OF IT… 😉

Cheers
L-zr

I am fully with you on this Lazer. Not sure why anyone would argue with what you said. It is very clear and I think, the idea of playing, learning to rally deeper and enjoying play but not wanting to simply win off cheap points is totally good FOR YOU or ME even if it is not what would get the OP to a "higher rating" faster. But you included that information in your first response to JJ NG. You basically indicated that he was right on one level but it would not be your choice of approach.

Not sure where it got lost in translation.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

i'm trying to make you not confused.
not everything is about you, you know.
I'm here to help OP
and now i'm trying to help you figure out you are not OP
That seems to be more difficult than helping OP
lol

If you read his first post, he said he agreed with JJ NG but explained why he would not be using the approach. So, he included that information. You sort of tried to say that he would need to improve his serves to get better when he was saying he didn't care about getting better.

Read that first post and note, he includes the information that what JJ NG said would be good for the OP.

Your first response to him implied you thought he would need to improve his serves rather than indicating that, even if he didn't care about improving his serves, or want to win by just serving skill, that it might still be a good approach for the OP.

You can separate the 2:
a) Lazer does not need to focus on serves because that is not how he wants to improve his game.
b) Improving serves would still be a valid approach for the OP if he is focused on wanting to get better.

The comment and the distinction still fits with the content of the thread. It is fine to give the OP the information that not everyone likes to win quick, easy points that feel cheap because the opponent can't return your serves well. OP can decide how he wants to get better and the extra information is still useful.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

All jokes aside, improved serving is the quickest way to get to play with players above your level. But it takes just as much time and coaching as anything else, the difference is that the impact on points is immediate and the better players will do things that force you to do more. But the good thing is that if you have the ability and work on it seriously, you can do most of the work by yourself and it will translate quickly to match results when a threshold gets hit.

Your point about how serve is also about third ball and point construction as you get to a certain level is important.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

If you read his first post, he said he agreed with JJ NG but explained why he would not be using the approach. So, he included that information. You sort of tried to say that he would need to improve his serves to get better when he was saying he didn't care about getting better.

Read that first post and note, he includes the information that what JJ NG said would be good for the OP.

Your first response to him implied you thought he would need to improve his serves rather than indicating that, even if he didn't care about improving his serves, or want to win by just serving skill, that it might still be a good approach for the OP.

You can separate the 2:
a) Lazer does not need to focus on serves because that is not how he wants to improve his game.
b) Improving serves would still be a valid approach for the OP if he is focused on wanting to get better.

The comment and the distinction still fits with the content of the thread. It is fine to give the OP the information that not everyone likes to win quick, easy points that feel cheap because the opponent can't return your serves well. OP can decide how he wants to get better and the extra information is still useful.

My post says "you can just win points off a good serve", I was referring to "one can win" and not Lazer. I do understand Lazer is higher than 1500, and is not in a 1300 to get to 1500 person.
If you read everything I typed, it is referring to OP and the solution thereof, especially since someone said it is impossible for a 62 year old to improve.

I did inform Lazer afterwards that I was referring to OP, no? Lazer is obviously very obssed with the word "you", so I continue to explain to him, it is not about him. I find it strange you don't see that? So many people did. It was funny at first, until it feels like Lazer is still obssed with the word "you" in my first post and now "you" too lol.

I also don't like to win serves directly (especially against lower level players), but if I'm OP's coach, my role is to get him to 1500. Maybe I just think like a coach when I'm typing and not thinking like me as a player?

However, if I want to talk about Lazer,
I do have a big question on how do you get a good rally going if you have bad serves and bad serve returns.
It is so against the concept of getting a good rally going. (disclaimer, You here refers to any one, not you or Lazer - this is going to be tiring if I can't use "you" going forward)

Basically Lazer's style is to be passive and let the opponent start attacking? Any high level opponent would put a bad serve or a bad return away and unless Lazer plays like Michael Maze or is a very solid player, or if both him and opponent are low level, I do find it very difficult for the weaker first two contact player to have "good rallies". But that is just me. I do wish to see Lazer's videos. Maybe his first 2 are not as bad as this: "I don’t have any good serves and my serve returns are pretty bad too."

I say this since TT is a mind game at the end of the day too, if you (disclaimer - everyone, lol) are dominate from the serve and serve return (especially from a mental warfare point of view), you can dominate rallies too.

So tell me, can I use "you" in my context going forward, or no?

 

[kingkimchi]

yes
HK Youth Contender, U11 hardly has any players....
Its basically Taiwan, USA, HK taking part. U11 almost become an HK closed tournament lol

View attachment 26297

View attachment 26298

yeah most of tjhe u11s are my friends, they're not even in hk youth team, they were picked only for u11 because of their rankings.I was 9 ranking points short of joining u15

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Totally agree on this, but since I don’t care much about winning I don’t have any good serves and my serve returns are pretty bad too. I usually try to get a good rally going. I just hate a, serve -> point or serve -> receive -> point, game. Sooo boring.

Cheers
L-zr

against 1300~1500 players, you can just win points off a good serve

You are saying this to Lazer after he has said that he gets JJ NG's point but that, for him it is not what he would want. Given the context above, he already has said "Totally agree on this" why are you responding to him at all if it is for the OP and why are you not saying: "For the OP winning points off serve might be fine" WHICH HE AS ALREADY AGREED TO WITH: "Totally agree on this" which means it is a wasted comment if you are saying:

"The OP may do well with JJ NG's advice".

I know, but I play for not to win, and winning on serve is boooring…

Cheers
L-zr

So, Lazer responds as he does because, either your comment is directed at him, or it is a wasted comment since he has, in his first post, already conceded that JJ NG's comment may help the OP win at higher levels.

well, short cut to get to 1500 quickly, you will need it

If by "you" here, you did mean the OP, then YOU REALLY SHOULD HAVE USED IT. BUT AGAIN, IT IS A WASTED COMMENT SINCE LAZER AGREED IN HIS FIRST POST THAT WHAT JJ NG said would help the OP improve when he said: "Totally agree on this"

So, basically, you made 3 posts that labored a point Lazer had already made, OR YOU WERE TELLING LAZER something that he was not interested in. Either way, you did not need to make any of those comments.

As far as your last comment, I think I had no trouble making it clear that for Lazer, it may not be what he would want to do in working on things while it may still be good advice for the OP.

It would not be hard for you to do that without coming off the way you do in your post about different usages of THE WORD YOU when, either you were talking to Lazer AND THERE WAS NO POINT, or you were talking to Lazer about the OP and there was no point because he had acknowledged that with his: "Totally agree on this".

So, keep chasing your tail in circles if you want. But Lazer does not need any more than: "Totally agree on this" to show that he acknowledge that JJ NG's post might be useful for the OP.

 

[NextLevel]

If you read his first post, he said he agreed with JJ NG but explained why he would not be using the approach. So, he included that information. You sort of tried to say that he would need to improve his serves to get better when he was saying he didn't care about getting better.

Read that first post and note, he includes the information that what JJ NG said would be good for the OP.

Your first response to him implied you thought he would need to improve his serves rather than indicating that, even if he didn't care about improving his serves, or want to win by just serving skill, that it might still be a good approach for the OP.

You can separate the 2:
a) Lazer does not need to focus on serves because that is not how he wants to improve his game.
b) Improving serves would still be a valid approach for the OP if he is focused on wanting to get better.

The comment and the distinction still fits with the content of the thread. It is fine to give the OP the information that not everyone likes to win quick, easy points that feel cheap because the opponent can't return your serves well. OP can decide how he wants to get better and the extra information is still useful.

You are being kind to Lazer. But he can defend himself. He was trying to denigrate the importance of good serving IMHO, arguing that it is not as much fun to win with good serves as it is to win with rallying. Some players also take the attitude that good servers are winning with tricks and it is not a "real" way to win.

I don't know anyone who is serious about improving who enjoys having his serve attacked, even if you don't want to serve with deception, you need to limit the length and make sure your placement is precise or you will be dealing with topspins that you need to block or counter over and over. No serious player wants to deal with this pressure, and to avoid this pressure. the quality of the serve matters. It is the same principles that make a serve tight that can make a serve difficult to read , it is never obvious that you are serving quality backspin or fast topspin or sidespin to the edges and corners of the table or into the elbow, very few players can do this without lots of practice that makes them really good. If you don't have good serves, you will struggle to get rally opportunities or third ball chances against me, that I can guarantee you because a bad serve or an okay serve makes it hard to limit the options of the returner. But it is all level relative. The main point is that serving is as important a skill as any other match skill, no one should pretend that table tennis is about rallying. Good serving is required at a decent level to get the chance to rally!

Lazer should just have said he enjoys hitting the ball, and doesnt play matches to win. That would have helped much more. But seriously. what caused the trouble was the hint of the attitude to good serving. Not a technical disagreement.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

You are being kind to Lazer. But he can defend himself. He was trying to denigrate the importance of good serving IMHO, arguing that it is not as much fun to win with good serves as it is to win with rallying. Some players also take the attitude that good servers are winning with tricks and it is not a "real" way to win.

I don't know anyone who is serious about improving who enjoys having his serve attacked, even if you don't want to serve with deception, you need to limit the length and make sure your placement is precise or you will be dealing with topspins that you need to block or counter over and over. No serious player wants to deal with this pressure, and to avoid this pressure. the quality of the serve matters. It is the same principles that make a serve tight that can make a serve difficult to read , it is never obvious that you are serving quality backspin or fast topspin or sidespin to the edges and corners of the table or into the elbow, very few players can do this without lots of practice that makes them really good. If you don't have good serves, you will struggle to get rally opportunities or third ball chances against me, that I can guarantee you because a bad serve or an okay serve makes it hard to limit the options of the returner. But it is all level relative. The main point is that serving is as important a skill as any other match skill, no one should pretend that table tennis is about rallying. Good serving is required at a decent level to get the chance to rally!

Lazer should just have said he enjoys hitting the ball, and doesnt play matches to win. That would have helped much more. But seriously. what caused the trouble was the hint of the attitude to good serving. Not a technical disagreement.

Yeah. I agree with what you are saying about the serve. Maybe Lazer was doing what you were saying. I read it differently and I think it is still a fine perspective for the OP to hear that some people don't try to simply win points with serve. Perhaps there is a better way of saying it.

As you said at one point, at a certain point, the serve is about the return you get and your third ball. So, it depends on what you mean by the serve. But Lazer did concede that JJ NG's post gave information that would work.

My point with Tony had entirely to do with the fact that there should not have been any posts in reply to Lazer and if there was one, ONE was more than enough. Yes Lazer answered back. But why the need for any of the responses after that? Was there anything useful? Why not just give info to the OP and ignore Lazer's comments if he was trying to give information to the OP?

Rocky: BTW: I know this guy who was a coach at SPiN who played smooth on FH and SP on BH. When he was 15-17 he was probably 2500-2600. In his 30s he was about 2300. His whole strategy was to serve so his opponent could rip the ball and be waiting and counter so fast that most of the points would end. So, even though I get your point about not wanting the ball to be ripped back at you, some of what you want to come back depends on what your skills are.

This guy was really fast and could cover the table with his FH (like an old school PenHold player-but he was Shakehand). And if he used the BH SP to punch, it was pretty evil as even though his FH was very evil. So, I don't want people ripping it at me. And most people don't. But I know there are different strategies where you might benefit from using the power of your opponent's opening.

Suchy: Suchy also seemed to like serving in a way where his opponent would be forced to open with topspin. However, he did it with short heavy topspin forcing the opponent to make a shot that was topspin but either low percentage or not so high quality. I found how he used his serve and third ball very interesting to watch although it was something I would never be able to do.