19th Asian Games Hangzhou

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Each time you use the acronym TB, I keep thinking Timo Boll.

Oh,
Please, don't name Mr Timo Boll, else TB/MZ will say he is the No 1 draft pick that flopped...

We are in a 20 year period of unbeatable Chinese players and witness 2 of CNT/World' best players of all time in Ma Long and ZJK and with only 2 players in resent history of breaking down the great wall, only once and never gotten closed ever again.
In case you don't know Ryu Seung Min won OG in 2004, and Werner Schlager WTTC in 2003

Timo Boll has been the biggest threat for CNT inside this 20 years period, but has failed to win a major championship.
From Asia's side, HT has the potential on taking down the wall, with the total opposite of him in LYJ being close behind.

It requires the wall to be weakened internally for any outside force to have a chance.
All these Timo Boll, or Schlager, or HT, or LYJ are all lone warriors taking down a CNT team that get special treatments from ITTF/WTT, How do you even compete if the playing field isn't even close to being even.

IE, WTTC Durban.
All players get training hall usage at WTTC venue 3 days prior to tournament start (and 6 official match balls per player to use....).
CNT gets a hall nearby, 10 days prior, setup to match WTTC Durban venue, with like 6 match balls per player? lol, thousands of match balls for the few taking part...

While each country has limitation on how many people gets a WTTC pass... guess which country has unlimited passes?

1 man against a country is very true.
RSM and WS did it 20 years ago... and those are very rare and special results in really modern CNT dominated table tennis world.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I would love to see a stat that shows average shots per won point for top players. My guess is that ML and most of the top CNT players average much fewer shots for their points than Harimoto. ML's shot just has so much more penetration, while Harimoto's shot looks like it gives the opponent a chance. Kinda reminds me of Michael Chang vs Pete Sampras.

I wonder what his coaches are telling him and if their advice is along those lines.

That's why I actually see Miwa as having more potential than Tomokazu. Miwa seems to have a little more finishing ability, and if she can keep improving, maybe she can be a elite player.

 

[Shine]

I would love to see a stat that shows average shots per won point for top players. My guess is that ML and most of the top CNT players average much fewer shots for their points than Harimoto. ML's shot just has so much more penetration, while Harimoto's shot looks like it gives the opponent a chance. Kinda reminds me of Michael Chang vs Pete Sampras.

I wonder what his coaches are telling him and if their advice is along those lines.

That's why I actually see Miwa as having more potential than Tomokazu. Miwa seems to have a little more finishing ability, and if she can keep improving, maybe she can be a elite player.

He's 20 bruh, keep the doom n gloom bottled, that guy can play for the next 15 years. He has ample time to win the majors. You realize he can start winning his majors after FZD and WCQ retires, and that wouldn't cheapen his titles??

Right now, there's probably more chance of him winning the majors over the next 15 years compared to the chance of the CNT shutting him out. You should be worried how the CNT will stop him at 25 actually, not whether he is the GOAT at 20.

 

[TensorBackhand]

He's 20 bruh, keep the doom n gloom bottled, that guy can play for the next 15 years. He has ample time to win the majors. You realize he can start winning his majors after FZD and WCQ retires, and that wouldn't cheapen his titles??

Right now, there's probably more chance of him winning the majors over the next 15 years compared to the chance of the CNT shutting him out. You should be worried how the CNT will stop him at 25 actually, not whether he is the GOAT at 20.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Michael Chang won his first major when he was about 17. You wouldve said this guy has 15 year to win more majors. Over the next 15 years, he won 0.

I dont think its as extreme as Chang, but Harimoto reminds me of him with some similarities.

Early success and breakout as youth. Less finishing power. Using faster equipment to makeup for power.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Harimoto's core issue is his play style - almost everyone has analysed him and he has nothing else up his sleeve.
Unlike Harimoto, if you play better close to table ML can exploit your short game or counter. Harimoto has a limited amount of techniques in his arsenals.

But who knows, time will tell. Harimoto might change and have a second peak in his career.

It is his over attacking / aggressive personality.
He needs to learn how to manage the aggressiveness.
That is why his highs and lows are world apart and that can occur in the same game or minutes apart.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I would love to see a stat that shows average shots per won point for top players. My guess is that ML and most of the top CNT players average much fewer shots for their points than Harimoto. ML's shot just has so much more penetration, while Harimoto's shot looks like it gives the opponent a chance.

You can't really take a higher vs a lower USATT rating point scenario into top 5 / top 10 WR players scenario.
Against stronger opponents, the rallies would become longer.
IE ML vs HT compared to ML or HT vs you

 

[Shine]

It is his over attacking / aggressive personality.
He needs to learn how to manage the aggressiveness.
That is why his highs and lows are world apart

He tries to do that, but ends up passive at crucial moments.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

He tries to do that, but ends up passive at crucial moments.

yes, that is why he needs to learn how to manage
He is either over++, or under++, he needs to have different gears, but the problem is, since young, he has only been over ++ and childhood fandom doesn't help (think Fukahara Ai and how that messes with one's head)

 

[SFF_lib]

He tries to do that, but ends up passive at crucial moments.

Harimoto's FH block tends to return high and slow, creating an instant kill.

 

[Shine]

Harimoto's FH block tends to return high and slow, creating an instant kill.

It's cos of the opponent's careful placement, it can happen to anyone.
He has a very mean forehand slap if he reads the placement well.

 

[Shine]

Btw, I thought the ITTF decided to bring the world cups back, I can see a Women's WTT finals ( the new morph of the world cup apparently) in December 2023, when is the Men's finals??

 

[NextLevel]

I hold Harimoto to a high standard because he was the best 14 year old and best 16 year old ever. He was WAY better than Ma Long at 16. So if he kept improving, in theory, he should be destroying ML and the top CNT players by now. But that hasn't happened, because he seem to have peaked already.

It's just like we hold NBA draft #1 pick to a high standard because there were high expectations and hopes. A lot of #1 picks end up being total trash and go down in history as biggest flops ever.

Harimoto is not trash, he's more like Andrew Wiggins. Former #1 pick, but ended up being a good but not truly great player.

Nah, definitely closer to Akeem Olajuwon if you want to take these comparisons seriously, Wiggins just shows you absolutely devalue the actual results of Harimoto.

Do you realize that Dimitri Ovtcharov has never won a WTTC medal in singles - I am not sure if he has even ever made it to a quarter final - yes he does have two bronze medals at the Olympics in singles?

Or that Timo Boll has never won a singles medal at the Olympics - again, I am not sure if he ever made it to a QF? He does have two bronze medals in WTTC singles.

2016 Olympics and 2021 Olympics really helped Mizutani, but it gives you an insight into how long it took Mizutani to get Olympic medals. He only made it to two WTTC singles QFs in his whole career, something Harimoto has already achieved.

You seem to think improvement in TT is linear, don't let the success the Chinese have had in developing world class players deceive you. Had Harimoto been trained in the Chinese system, he would probably have been forced to make significant changes to his playing style much earlier or possibly not been allowed to develop his rapid attack backhand at all, people underestimate how much specific harmony with a coach can influence your career.

Real life is complicated, it isn't some simplistic formula that guarantees talent = success in some non-trivial fashion.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Michael Chang won his first major when he was about 17. You wouldve said this guy has 15 year to win more majors. Over the next 15 years, he won 0.

I dont think its as extreme as Chang, but Harimoto reminds me of him with some similarities.

Early success and breakout as youth. Less finishing power. Using faster equipment to makeup for power.

This is partly about your model, I remember when Coco Gauff hadn't won any majors and then Emma Raducanu won one in a final over Leylah Fernandez, someone on mytt was saying that Coco Gauff was overhyped (probably because she was African American) and that Raducanu and Fernandez were probably better players. I pointed out that Gauff has had more stable results than Raducanu and Fernandez and that putting too much focus on a single result is what gets people into trouble. Chang was a good player, but no one knows the future. And at that time, there was much less knowledge on how to control certain things than there is now.

You have to refine your flawed talent model and accept that 1) no one knows the future 2) the fact that Harimoto is still consistently amongst the best players in the world is the most important thing and 3) the fact that he is young still means he can adapt to stuff.

Tony just gave you an example of the kind of stuff the CNT do. I was told by a coach who went to Rio that the Chinese bought and built a replica of the playing hall so they could adapt to the conditions before the tournament. You can be fairly sure they did something similar in South Africa. Anyone trying to make this purely about talent is delusional.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Tony just gave you an example of the kind of stuff the CNT do. I was told by a coach who went to Rio that the Chinese bought and built a replica of the playing hall so they could adapt to the conditions before the tournament. You can be fairly sure they did something similar in South Africa. Anyone trying to make this purely about talent is delusional.

CNT players are spoiled like no other.
I some times wonder, if you take away all this kind of resource and support, how would the players still feature.

At one point, I approached the Chinese Taipei delegation and asked if they would arrange credentials under the TPE banner for me for the WTTC Durban (I could of gotten one from South Africa or from China, but I was going to travel in and out with TPE), but at that time, I was in a queue.... guess who was in front of me and still "waiting" for one, since TPE has reached its limit. LYJ's mom. (I couldn't go for other reasons and put my energy with Cassel)

TPE fielded the max players allowed by national federation (just like China), but China had 3 times the delegation pass compared to Team TPE. I don't know the logic behind that.
This does not include the dozen DHS staff which also act as support staff for CNT.

Maybe TPE is nothing in the eyes of the decision makers, but even JPN delegation was much smaller than CNT.

Behind the scenes is really unfair to be honest
Just look at how CNT can field 13 (or more) players in a WTT event that limits max 6 per country. With maybe 2 or 3 more via wildcards...the maths doesn't add up and no one really talks about it, since WTT is basically run by the same person running CNT/CTTA

 

[Shine]

CNT players are spoiled like no other.
I some times wonder, if you take away all this kind of resource and support, how would the players still feature.

At one point, I approached the Chinese Taipei delegation and asked if they would arrange credentials under the TPE banner for me for the WTTC Durban (I could of gotten one from South Africa or from China, but I was going to travel in and out with TPE), but at that time, I was in a queue.... guess who was in front of me and still "waiting" for one, since TPE has reached its limit. LYJ's mom. (I couldn't go for other reasons and put my energy with Cassel)

TPE fielded the max players allowed by national federation (just like China), but China had 3 times the delegation pass compared to Team TPE. I don't know the logic behind that.
This does not include the dozen DHS staff which also act as support staff for CNT.

Maybe TPE is nothing in the eyes of the decision makers, but even JPN delegation was much smaller than CNT.

Behind the scenes is really unfair to be honest
Just look at how CNT can field 13 (or more) players in a WTT event that limits max 6 per country. With maybe 2 or 3 more via wildcards...the maths doesn't add up and no one really talks about it, since WTT is basically run by the same person running CNT/CTTA

Apart from this ongoing tournament, what tournament in recent history has there been a lot of Chinese players like this?? The ones held earlier in the year usually had few players, I remember tournaments where WCQ attended but only played mixed doubles, LJK too. Even the WTTC had only 5. The PDR and other rules have complicated the issue, and I guess this tournament was supposed to be a Champions event but things didn't go on as planned.
I think this tournament is just a special case because of the situation of players on ground. I'm not gonna say there aren't certain privileges they enjoy, A lot of them though is just their return on investment; when other countries start investing just as much into TT; it'll yield dividends.
Japan is already up there in terms of investment, and they were very active with tournaments in the ITTF era, what happened to them that they barely have any feature tournaments nowadays, Did they cut back on their involvement? I still see their president in the Finals during trophy presentation. I don't believe other actors just sat around and "allowed" this "State capture" you're alluding to. If things are as bad as you're painting, Others would have spoken up, China doesn't have many friends in politics and is seen as the "enemy" in this sport - so there's no incentive for other countries to keep quiet.
Dainton, Sorling and the Swedes, the Qataris and the Germans, the ETTU are still very much in the thick of table tennis. It's up to them to step up.

Australia, Japan, Korea, Czech used to have big tournaments. Focus should be on them bringing it back. Korea is apparently investing, they've gotten the Asian Championships in Korea, they've gotten the WTTTC in Korea too, that's an example.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Apart from this ongoing tournament, what tournament in recent history has there been a lot of Chinese players like this?? The ones held earlier in the year usually had few players, I remember tournaments where WCQ attended but only played mixed doubles, LJK too. Even the WTTC had only 5. The PDR and other rules have complicated the issue, and I guess this tournament was supposed to be a Champions event but things didn't go on as planned.
I think this tournament is just a special case because of the situation of players on ground. I'm not gonna say there aren't certain privileges they enjoy, A lot of them though is just their return on investment; when other countries start investing just as much into TT; it'll yield dividends.

World Table Tennis

worldtabletennis.com

This was the first event we noticed the craziness.
CNT Womens had 14 players
Mens had 11 players.

WTTC is special, as no one can above the limit.
But WTT limit is clearly in black and white, but CNT somehow don't count towards those limits.
Few Asian countries are not happy with this, since when they enter, they get cut off at the limit.

Check for yourself - and you can tell if there is privileges or not.
Of course you won't be able to check on the limitation on how other countries get when applying, but just check which is the 2nd country that goes beyond the limit by far far.

Japan is already up there in terms of investment, and they were very active with tournaments in the ITTF era, what happened to them that they barely have any feature tournaments nowadays, Did they cut back on their involvement?

JTTA isn't in agreement with WTT

Covid does have a role to play with bidding for tournaments from Asian countries, you could see more from 2025 onwards.

I still see their president in the Finals during trophy presentation. I don't believe other actors just sat around and "allowed" this "State capture" you're alluding to. If things are as bad as you're painting, Others would have spoken up, China doesn't have many friends in politics and is seen as the "enemy" in this sport - so there's no incentive for other countries to keep quiet.
Dainton, Sorling and the Swedes, the Qataris and the Germans, the ETTU are still very much in the thick of table tennis. It's up to them to step up.

You should spend some time reviewing the ITTF meeting minutes when asks why ITTF signed a 15 year contract with WTT.... The athlete rep at the time asked about this - and was just "brushed off" with a political type of answer (meaning, no answer at all).

 

[zeio]

Japan is already up there in terms of investment, and they were very active with tournaments in the ITTF era, what happened to them that they barely have any feature tournaments nowadays, Did they cut back on their involvement?

https://mytabletennis.net/forum/for...dbook-and-calendar-update-and-changes#1139348

China doesn't have many friends in politics

https://youtu.be/A4I5bLlip5Y?t=79

 

[Shine]

About the support staff, are you really saying the association can't fly in support staff as "fans"? Like no way to beat the system with plausible deniability? You said it is easy for you to get a pass from the National team right? How is that possible?? Aren't they tight for passes?
And how many support staff is afforded for each national association??
I checked the rules of the WTT Contender briefly and although I couldn't find much, I found out that NER is 4 per country in singles! ( I've heard some people mention 5 or 6, who knows which is right, and perhaps depending on the tournament level, NER changes). Strangely I saw that the host is allowed 12 players in the qualifying zone as wildcards, this is where the problem is; Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan had a lot of representatives in Almaty; I believe Kazakhstan had 11 girls, and I guess the Chinese were able to influence them for some seats. There's also rules relating to PDR and all
What is Japan's gripe with the WTT exactly?, The schedule, The incentives? , The entire program? , I am not saying WTT is perfect, they are far from it, I'm just curious about the details since I've not been active.
If ITTF is the one who weren't able to give a straightforward answer to the athletes rep, and Sorling, Dainton, Miyazaki and co were vice presidents, does that mean ITTF is all in on this?

 

[Shine]

https://mytabletennis.net/forum/for...dbook-and-calendar-update-and-changes#1139348

https://youtu.be/A4I5bLlip5Y?t=79

Oh, just seeing this after I posted.
Thanks

 

[NextLevel]

About the support staff, are you really saying the association can't fly in support staff as "fans"? Like no way to beat the system with plausible deniability? You said it is easy for you to get a pass from the National team right? How is that possible?? Aren't they tight for passes?
And how many support staff is afforded for each national association??
I checked the rules of the WTT Contender briefly and although I couldn't find much, I found out that NER is 4 per country in singles! ( I've heard some people mention 5 or 6, who knows which is right, and perhaps depending on the tournament level, NER changes). Strangely I saw that the host is allowed 12 players in the qualifying zone as wildcards, this is where the problem is; Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan had a lot of representatives in Almaty; I believe Kazakhstan had 11 girls, and I guess the Chinese were able to influence them for some seats. There's also rules relating to PDR and all
What is Japan's gripe with the WTT exactly?, The schedule, The incentives? , The entire program? , I am not saying WTT is perfect, they are far from it, I'm just curious about the details since I've not been active.
If ITTF is the one who weren't able to give a straightforward answer to the athletes rep, and Sorling, Dainton, Miyazaki and co were vice presidents, does that mean ITTF is all in on this?

A lot is clearly broken in TT, I am not sure whether it is because there isn't enough money in the sport that no one obviously cares in investigative journalism. But Shahara already showed us that you could do ridiculous things and get away with it.

 

[zeio]

The rules were slightly changed for 2023. They consolidated in a separate paragraph (underlined below) what should happen when an event is undersubscribed.

https://wttwebcmsprod.blob.core.windows.net/technicaldocuments/WTT_Series & Feeder_Handbook_2023.pdf

2.1 National Entry Restriction (NER)

...

Where a Main Draw or a Qualifying is undersubscribed additional players or pairs in any pair combination
can be accepted according to the ITTF TTWR or the Combined Pair Rank at the respective entry deadline to
fill the available spots.

...

2.5 Onsite Entry
When a Qualifying or a Main Draw is undersubscribed on the day of conducting the draw, any player/pair
who did not enter by the entry deadline shall be accepted onto the entry list as long as they are not seeded,
and they can confirm in person their availability to play onsite directly with the WTT Event Supervisor one
(1) hour prior to the commencement of the draw. Any player/pair who withdrew from the event is not
permitted to sign-in as an onsite entry.

https://wttwebcmsprod.blob.core.windows.net/technicaldocuments/WTT_Series & Feeder_Handbook_2022.pdf

2.1 National Entry Restriction (NER)

...

In the situation where Qualifying at a WTT Star Contender or WTT Contender is undersubscribed, additional
players from Member Associations and in any pair combination will be accepted into Qualifying based on
the ITTF TTWR to fill the available spots.

f. WTT Feeder Series
• Singles:

...

Where a Main Draw or Qualifying list is undersubscribed additional players from Member
Associations can be accepted respectively, based on the ITTF TTWR to fill available spots.

• Doubles & Mixed Doubles:

...

Where a Main Draw or Qualifying list is undersubscribed additional pairs from Member Associations
in any pair combination can be accepted respectively according to the Combined Pair Rank based
on the player’s individual Doubles ITTF TTWR to fill the available spots.

...

2.5 Onsite Entry
When a Qualifying or a Main Draw is undersubscribed on the day of conducting the draw, any player/pair
who did not enter by the entry deadline shall be accepted onto the entry list as long as they are not seeded,
and they can confirm in person their availability to play onsite directly with the WTT Event Supervisor one
(1) hour prior to the commencement of the draw. Any player/pair who withdrew from the event is not
permitted to sign-in as an onsite entry.