WTT Champions Frankfurt 2023

[Shine]

CNT is a business, a company, there is a boss, and there is management and then you have the workers.

The management will identify top international threats and then study those individuals inside out.
The clone players would then learn and try and do everything like the target - from serving, service return and style of play.

How many players are clones? There is quite a lot.
Some times, the clones can even be very good players, like Hao Shuai back then was given the tasks of being China's Timo Boll.

I think the above is still acceptable, like Lin Yunju got in lefty training partners to work on his performance against WCQ, but what is crazy is, in the CNT, some players are told to change equipment to match those of the target.
I'm not going to guess if the worker has the right to tell management "No".

IE, the most famous is Wang Jianjun, who was tasked to be China's Ryu Seung min and changed his Cpen blade to Jpen. Since retiring from CNT, he changed back to Cpen and has been doing pretty well (with Cpen) in European leagues (in China, he is the call up guy if the main players want to train with "RSM")

There are also inverted players that had to become a Fukuhara Ai, or Mima Ito and had to change to pip outs to match them.

As I said, it is easy to get practice partners, ie, Lin can hire 10 or 20 if he had the budget for it,
but in CNT, it is national team - where TT is really an individual sport.
So you can say that if the team is around 20, the main players and "training partners" is likely 1 to 2 ratio.
So what is the purpose of the other 10~15 in the national team, other than the 5 to 10 that is on the world top 20 rankings.

Basically your future in the CNT is set, you are either going to be a main guy, or not.
or maybe there is a chance to "break through", or not.
LJK and LGY for example will never be going to the Olympics. They were the "chance to break through".

One of the Chinese coaches told me, if you are a chopper, you will never be a main player in CNT, at best, you will just be the only 1 (or 2) choppers in the A team to be a practice partner.

So take this to Europe, would Dima (Ma Long), Boll (WCQ) now become Dang Qiu's CNT clone players?
It is impossible right? even practice partner is impossible, yet alone clone player.

In Europe or anywhere else in the world, the national players are all individuals who want to play and I can't find another place where the national players will be asked to sacrfice theselves because the management feels they need to look after the main guys.

All cases that happened in the previous generations. Like I said, it's obvious that things have changed. How many players are clones in the current generation? And what foreign players are they mimicking?
What option do the other players have? No one is forcing them to be on the team, they can stay at the provincial level or play for other countries. There's always that. They see the incentives they gain from being on the national team, that's why they stay.
The current "cloning" in the team is nothing more than the kind that Lin is accessible to.
Choppers can't be a main player because they have a low ceiling. They'll inevitably get beaten at the top level. I don't know why that's shocking to anyone.

 

[longrange]

CNT is a business, a company, there is a boss, and there is management and then you have the workers.

It's kind of a normal evolution of the organization, Chinese got more professional attitude than anyone else. It's a little like complaining that they invented and used multiball for training when everyone else was training with a couple of balls and training partners. Both are innovative approaches on their levels.

The management will identify top international threats and then study those individuals inside out.
The clone players would then learn and try and do everything like the target - from serving, service return and style of play.

It looks like a normal approach in every kind of sport: to study and prepare to your opponent. Maybe it's a little exaggerated in TT, but it's their national sport and they have to compensate for the enormous pressure on the players.

No one seems to want to appreciate this: the pressure is enormous. You get on top and you are under constant scrutiny of the whole world. They study everyone? Ma Long is an open book for a decade and yet he manages to stay on top. And that's not even mentioning the pressure from the party and the duty to win Olympic medals.

So take this to Europe, would Dima (Ma Long), Boll (WCQ) now become Dang Qiu's CNT clone players?
It is impossible right? even practice partner is impossible, yet alone clone player.

Apples and oranges. A really bizzarre comparison. Why should Dima become DQ's partner? An unknown player from 1./2. Bundesliga — that would be fair.

In Europe or anywhere else in the world, the national players are all individuals who want to play and I can't find another place where the national players will be asked to sacrfice theselves because the management feels they need to look after the main guys.

The problem of Europe is that TT is not recognized as a worthy professional sport. No money, no national (for the international competitions that is) organization, no nothing. Apart from Germany (and maybe France now), national teams comprise 2-3-4 same people, which play till they are mid 30s-40 and that's all.

In such circumstances of course there are "individuals" achieving nothing. If a sport was considered worthwhile, something similar to the chinese organization would emerge immediately. I can come up with an example of cycling, where the team of "individuals" works on the star "sacrificing their career." Tough s**t, that's just their job.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I had a thought exchange in another group about Lin's nationality. The other wrote that Lin was a Chinese. I messaged him that Lin is a Taiwanese. According to that man, Lin remains a Chinese, mentioning that a Cretan is also a Greek. An example that is not comparable at all in my opinion. According to me, Lin also sees himself as a Taiwanese.

Jeremy Lin (NBA) was called to be Chinese too, however he sees himself as a Taiwanese American (more American to be honest)
Chinese people said Lin Yun Ju is from Taipei, but then, he is from Ilan, not Taipei.
10 years ago Chuang hosted an event in Kaohsiung City, but then Chinese people say it is hosted in Taipei. It sounds like treating the whole of Taiwan as Taipei and Taipei is "Chinese".
The whole things comes down to ancestor ownership of lands, like China belongs to the Mongolians, or North Africa belongs to the Romans and one can also talk about the Ottoman/Persian empire and other old historical borders....

But funny enough, if one was to look into the history of Taiwan and the ruler of mainland China, PRC took over from ROC, who took over from Qing, who took over from Ming, who took over from Yuan etc.
The only "gov" who conquered the whole of Taiwan has been ROC.
PRC has never set foot to gov any place in Taiwan, and Qing and Ming didn't gov most parts of Taiwan.
So if one was to use the Mongolian and Roman empire approached to "claim historical land" over Taiwan, most of Taiwan has never been under mainland "china" ancient or current rulers control.

But yeah, the land issue is more than Taiwan's issue, since lands belonging to Japan, Russia, India, Philippines, Vietnam etc, also now belong to China as PRC claims, so people or things on that territory must also be Chinese too.

Never the less, its modern age, and beyond politics, Jeremy Lin or Lin Yunju are not PRC Chinese citizens, so they sure are not Chinese nationals. Ethnic Chinese - yes, but not nationality Chinese.
Ethnic Chinese has immigrated to all corners of the world for over 100 years, maybe even longer (including Japan from Qin Dynasty - 2000+ years ago)

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Apples and oranges. A really bizzarre comparison. Why should Dima become DQ's partner? An unknown player from 1./2. Bundesliga — that would be fair.

Why? because I'm talking about NT, so CNT and GNT is the same
if using an unknown player from 1 or 2 Bundesliga, than why CNT uses A team players for Star A team practice partner and not players from Jia A?
What is the glory of being in A team if you are only there to be a practice partner? That is just how it is in CNT and differs from many NT.

The problem of Europe is that TT is not recognized as a worthy professional sport. No money, no national (for the international competitions that is) organization, no nothing. Apart from Germany (and maybe France now), national teams comprise 2-3-4 same people, which play till they are mid 30s-40 and that's all.

A lot of national teams is around 10 players. So even number 10, wont have a job that is to practice only with number 1, 2 or 3.
China does have more money, but Chinese system on majority to help on the minority win - is very unique.
Since TT is not a team sport and it cannot be similar to Messi or Ronaldo approach where your job is to let them score and have the glory.

In such circumstances of course there are "individuals" achieving nothing. If a sport was considered worthwhile, something similar to the chinese organization would emerge immediately. I can come up with an example of cycling, where the team of "individuals" works on the star "sacrificing their career." Tough s**t, that's just their job.

I guess there are few other sports that do end up sacfraciing - ie, F1 driver where you must loose to your star colleague. I don't know anything about cycling, but I did read about F1 before.

so which country do you think would use the Chinese model given they have the money?

China uses a filteration system, where many are written off as candidates to be stars from very early on.
Just like Deng Yaping was too short to ever play for the CNT, or how some players don't fit in and should leave.

I guess, if it wasn't for Japan or Singapore or Korea, a lot of those leaving China wouldn't really have good glory, as many other western countries have long immigration cycle and time/body age is an expiring date.
There is a lot more trainers/practice partners/coaches from China now than there is active players and with recent - it is so much more difficult to leave China due to tightening of restrictions. USA clubs struggled, so they hired 2 Taiwanese to be coaches/practice partners recently. I was shocked to hear they been struggling to get Chinese practice partners for over half a year.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

All cases that happened in the previous generations. Like I said, it's obvious that things have changed. How many players are clones in the current generation? And what foreign players are they mimicking?
What option do the other players have? No one is forcing them to be on the team, they can stay at the provincial level or play for other countries. There's always that. They see the incentives they gain from being on the national team, that's why they stay.
The current "cloning" in the team is nothing more than the kind that Lin is accessible to.
Choppers can't be a main player because they have a low ceiling. They'll inevitably get beaten at the top level. I don't know why that's shocking to anyone.

I guess its all depend on how you view human rights and rights as individual or you just a tool.

Lin doesn't have access to his Taiwan national team team mates to become his practice partners full time. He did hire 1 or 2 active/former ones that choose to become practice partner and to give up on practicing themselves (I guess you can call it career change)

Choppers in the Taiwanese national team isn't there to be a practice partner for other national players, since they want to become stars themselves. I think the same can be for the other choppers in the world.
I think in most places, even if you are the last place, you still have the right to be your own boss and not to tool for your national team.
Just look at the whole CNT and T League example. The boss has the only say, players don't. That is very different to any other country in the world, other the likes of North Korea etc

In regards with cloning, I will make sure to chat with my CNT contacts and try and give an update there.
Prior to tokyo OG, it still existed

 

[longrange]

Why? because I'm talking about NT, so CNT and GNT is the same
if using an unknown player from 1 or 2 Bundesliga, than why CNT uses A team players for Star A team practice partner and not players from Jia A?
What is the glory of being in A team if you are only there to be a practice partner?

Look, there was this mock Olympics before Tokyo, how many of those 32 (or 64? can't remember) were ghost players? You brought a couple of names and I'm too far from Chinese internals to know them. But if one could see these imitators and they were on a decent level I'd expect them to appear there. Now if you say that they don't compete at all... neither there nor on the international stage, then they are not strong by definition.

so which country do you think would use the Chinese model given they have the money?

If it was a working approach they would call the guys coaching assistants/training partners, gave a decent salary and that's all. Good luck imitating ML, FZD, XX, WCQ and the others though.

China uses a filteration system, where many are written off as candidates to be stars from very early on.

"Filtration", huh? And the others use what?.. "Selection"? Interesting wording.

Just like Deng Yaping was too short to ever play for the CNT, or how some players don't fit in and should leave.

Tough s**t, there are only these few spots in the CNT. Like literally in every sport in every country. To make this substantial, you'd have to show that these guys were capable of beating the Team A. Were they? Otherwise what's the point?

 

[longrange]

I guess its all depend on how you view human rights and rights as individual or you just a tool.

Weren't you asked a specific question? How many imitators are allegedly there? Whom do they imitate? And you are dodging this very specific question appealing to human rights. Seriously?

 

[Shine]

I guess its all depend on how you view human rights and rights as individual or you just a tool.

Lin doesn't have access to his Taiwan national team team mates to become his practice partners full time. He did hire 1 or 2 active/former ones that choose to become practice partner and to give up on practicing themselves (I guess you can call it career change)

Choppers in the Taiwanese national team isn't there to be a practice partner for other national players, since they want to become stars themselves. I think the same can be for the other choppers in the world.
I think in most places, even if you are the last place, you still have the right to be your own boss and not to tool for your national team.
Just look at the whole CNT and T League example. The boss has the only say, players don't. That is very different to any other country in the world, other the likes of North Korea etc

In regards with cloning, I will make sure to chat with my CNT contacts and try and give an update there.
Prior to tokyo OG, it still existed

It always circle back to human rights, right? Nothing to do with the limitations created by TT structure, participation rules, player's abilities and national resources..... Yep, this doesn't look like bias at all.

With regards to Lin not having access to practicing with his teammates; this is a problem specific to Lin and Taiwanese TT structure, CTTA doesn't have to recreate conditions present in other countries, that's the whole point. Ma Long is as much of a grand slam player, and as much of a practice partner for WCQ, FZD and the other top guys. It creates synergy and cooperation, and that's why China is the best in the world.
They don't have to approach the sport on a case by case basis because 1. They don't like it, 2. It doesn't complement team ethos 3. Their investment and ambitions in the sport demands a hands-on strategy, not something that leaves it up to individuals solely.

Career change, practice partner, clones are contextual synonyms if we delve into it. But not today..

Choppers in the CNT are there to play for themselves too, I think you underestimate the will of the Chinese; they are as liberal as everyone else, they just emphasize team work and discipline on top of that, for the most part. I know there are paternalistic pressures due to their political dispensation, But; the greatest limiting factor for these players is OPPORTUNITIES. Gone are the days when everyone could play on tour. You've mentioned China tryna sneak players on tour, that shows a concern for the "2/3". For most top tournaments if it's five players needed, that already encompasses the top 5 players; as a team it's up to rest of the players to do their best to help the top 5. Every other sport has similarities like this too.
If China was a strict rigid polity that only employed other players to be clones for the top 5, then there wouldn't be mock tourneys, qualification games, internal trials and marvelous 12s to give players on the team a chance to qualify for the biggest competitions. It's a no brainer that the top 5 will get the lion share of chances. Japan has subjected their players to a 4 year long competition to determine Olympics participants ( doesn't sound very "free" or rational but not my grouse). Lin Gaoyuan ascended from a relative nobody to a top 5 player in 2017 Marvelous 12. Most of the bulk of their young players reached there from provincial qualifications, wjttc results. There's clearly a chance for anybody to rise to the top. If they don't, they suck it up and aid the team's goals. You can't be mad that Ma Te( just for example) places 19/20 out of internal trials, and then complain why is he a practice partner for Ma Long at the olympics, instead of starring. The goal is winning, not participation prizes.
Even Ma Te has retired, and Fan Zhendong had to solicit the help of Suh Hyowon in a couple competitions to practice when he had to face a chopper!
How's that for a team that breed "clones" or 2/3 to serve 1/3, did they forget to get a chopper, or do choppers leave and enter the team by their own merit and volition??. Wu Yang and Hu Limei retired and that's exactly why the female team has struggled more against choppers in recent years. No choppers to practice with. Where are the choppers that should be serving WMY, WYD and co?? Where are the long pip players and co to mimic YXX, YJN , Grandma Ni?? The whole Chinese team is obviously a bunch of shakehanders trying to outcompete themselves for places in international tournaments, and cooperating when necessary for the team's goals.

It comes down to my point that players fate in the CNT depends on their prowess. If they don't like their career trajectory they can retire a la Zhou Yu, Yan An, Fang Bo etc. Very little compulsion apart from standard team protocols on training and strategy.

Hashimoto and that other Japanese Chopper are not on the JNT, and have rarely played in the past few years, but it'll be ridiculous to think they don't practice with the JNT top 5 to keep their anti chopper skill level high. Any skill that isn't practiced atrophies. We see some of the top Japanese players experimenting with coaches, assistants and partners. It's the same thing like what happens in China; Japan keep them in clubs like Mikki House, China abandons the "libertarian" facade and put them on the national team if they qualify for it.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Look, there was this mock Olympics before Tokyo, how many of those 32 (or 64? can't remember) were ghost players? You brought a couple of names and I'm too far from Chinese internals to know them. But if one could see these imitators and they were on a decent level I'd expect them to appear there. Now if you say that they don't compete at all... neither there nor on the international stage, then they are not strong by definition.

The other players there is a perfect example. What are they there for? for self enrichment? or to warm up the main players?

If it was a working approach they would call the guys coaching assistants/training partners, gave a decent salary and that's all. Good luck imitating ML, FZD, XX, WCQ and the others though.

Imitation doesn't mean they will play in a top level, but we are talking about style and strategy. Not about highest skills
I think this is something you have failed to grasp

"Filtration", huh? And the others use what?.. "Selection"? Interesting wording.

think about it, up or out. from provincial B to A to national B to A.
if you can't understand this, it is difficult to explain further. And it is no secret that style of play is already set in provincial.

Tough s**t, there are only these few spots in the CNT. Like literally in every sport in every country. To make this substantial, you'd have to show that these guys were capable of beating the Team A. Were they? Otherwise what's the point?

I guess you don't know that Deng Yaping did make it through to the CNT and is the GOAT if you take her accomplish and time to achieve it into question. So again, you are aruging for the sake of it and not really looking at the content.
Deng Yaping was written off, but she won the Chinese nationals, so she forced her bosses to accept her.
To the rest is history (best womens player ever)
So, yes, Deng Yaping did just that.
Many others that was out - like FTW, or LJW, or were out of Beijing team, who will never be able to get into CNT, end up beating CNT in the world teams champ.... how is that?

 

[Shine]

The other players there is a perfect example. What are they there for? for self enrichment? or to warm up the main players?

Imitation doesn't mean they will play in a top level, but we are talking about style and strategy. Not about highest skills
I think this is something you have failed to grasp


think about it, up or out. from provincial B to A to national B to A.
if you can't understand this, it is difficult to explain further. And it is no secret that style of play is already set in provincial.

I guess you don't know that Deng Yaping did make it through to the CNT and is the GOAT if you take her accomplish and time to achieve it into question. So again, you are aruging for the sake of it and not really looking at the content.
Deng Yaping was written off, but she won the Chinese nationals, so she forced her bosses to accept her.
To the rest is history (best womens player ever)
So, yes, Deng Yaping did just that.
Many others that was out - like FTW, or LJW, or were out of Beijing team, who will never be able to get into CNT, end up beating CNT in the world teams champ.... how is that?

The players are there for both, Have any player in the last 10 years blatantly qualified for any competition by CNT's metrics and he/she was denied participation??

The Chinese have a school of thought with regards to TT, Most countries have too, and it aggregates from "Coaching Influence". Are you saying there's a problem with that? Humans aren't perfect. It's natural that most players will flock to the school of thought. Nervetheless, they still produce penholders and choppers?? How did they sleep through the cracks?

Okay, Deng Yaping didn't almost make the team, that was shortsighted but without checking my data, that's more than 20 years ago maybe 30, there's always gonna be human influence and prejudice with regards to decisions, again nobody is perfect.

It seems because people have decent knowledge of Chinese TT history, people think it's a crutch to use to blame the team all the time because of their political affiliations/ beliefs, Are you saying Japanese, Korean, German and Taiwanese methods are picture perfect or the most "humane", they too have bureaucrats that have interrupted player's sojourn with their politics in the past, and even in the present. Their players have had a lot to say about the current qualification regime and the incentives with respect to points. What happened in Korea that Zeio uncovered should not happen in a DEMOCRACY. Nobody is harping on that. The right way to look at it is to learn from the past and look forward to the future. Besides none of these countries will behave much different from what the Chinese are doing if they were in China's shoes.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

It always circle back to human rights, right? Nothing to do with the limitations created by TT structure, participation rules, player's abilities and national resources..... Yep, this doesn't look like bias at all.

yes it does hey. There is a lot of top down management, which is based on how things are govern.
You also seem to forget, every player is forced (or volunteer) to joined a political party as an active member too.
Which CNT player can take part in overseas leagues?
T League drama that happened few days ago is the perfect example.
The players really have no say - and compare that to a democratic society like Germany or France?
I guess you maybe not in a democratic society, but the freedom that many take for granted, is not really applicable. Many formal CNT players have spoken out about it - you should be able to engage them and take some other viewpoints other than mine.

With regards to Lin not having access to practicing with his teammates; this is a problem specific to Lin and Taiwanese TT structure, CTTA doesn't have to recreate conditions present in other countries, that's the whole point. Ma Long is as much of a grand slam player, and as much of a practice partner for WCQ, FZD and the other top guys. It creates synergy and cooperation, and that's why China is the best in the world.
They don't have to approach the sport on a case by case basis because 1. They don't like it, 2. It doesn't complement team ethos 3. Their investment and ambitions in the sport demands a hands-on strategy, not something that leaves it up to individuals solely.

Career change, practice partner, clones are contextual synonyms if we delve into it. But not today..

actually it is CNT vs the rest of the world. Taiwan is the same as everywhere else.
Each player on the team has "equal" rights. You don't promote to national team to be training partners.
In CNT, a coach gets 1 main player (some times 2) and then 2 or 3 weaker players.
ML isn't a training partner for WCQ/FZD or viceversa.

Choppers in the CNT are there to play for themselves too, I think you underestimate the will of the Chinese; they are as liberal as everyone else, they just emphasize team work and discipline on top of that, for the most part.

Then, you have never spoken to any former chopper or coach in the Chinese system.
Speak to some, broaden your mind!

I know there are paternalistic pressures due to their political dispensation, But; the greatest limiting factor for these players is OPPORTUNITIES. Gone are the days when everyone could play on tour. You've mentioned China tryna sneak players on tour, that shows a concern for the "2/3". For most top tournaments if it's five players needed, that already encompasses the top 5 players; as a team it's up to rest of the players to do their best to help the top 5. Every other sport has similarities like this too.

China being the founder of WTT, is the go to country to fill rosters. It is great that lower string gets to play, but unfair to other countries who can't send beyond the limit and don't get to squeeze in "extras". This is different to opportunities.
China approach other than making the roster look goods, is also there to block non Chinese players and to a extend, it has worked a lot.
Those players are not in it to hunt wr points, else you will see them taking part in more contenders and or even feeders. Go and check it out, 2023 is pretty much over, you have a whole year worth of rosters to check out.

If China was a strict rigid polity that only employed other players to be clones for the top 5, then there wouldn't be mock tourneys, qualification games, internal trials and marvelous 12s to give players on the team a chance to qualify for the biggest competitions. It's a no brainer that the top 5 will get the lion share of chances.

Same as my answer above - 20~30 players to help the 5 have a tournament.
of cause it is just a job and the 20~30 gets paid to do it.
Do you see GNT have a mock tournament where team B is there to help team A prepare?

Japan has subjected their players to a 4 year long competition to determine Olympics participants ( doesn't sound very "free" or rational but not my grouse). Lin Gaoyuan ascended from a relative nobody to a top 5 player in 2017 Marvelous 12. Most of the bulk of their young players reached there from provincial qualifications, wjttc results. There's clearly a chance for anybody to rise to the top. If they don't, they suck it up and aid the team's goals. You can't be mad that Ma Te( just for example) places 19/20 out of internal trials, and then complain why is he a practice partner for Ma Long at the olympics, instead of starring. The goal is winning, not participation prizes.
Even Ma Te has retired, and Fan Zhendong had to solicit the help of Suh Hyowon in a couple competitions to practice when he had to face a chopper!

Japan is trying to implement a new method of OG selection. It is indeed very tough and unique. And to be honest - if you look deeper - it is the fairest of the lot. It performance over a very long period of time. Not just 1 weekend.

So Ma Te, he will never be in the WTTTC or WTTC or OG team right?
LJK and LGY will never go the olympics, but they are top 10 player
Same as HS and FB.
Ma Te is just so far back and there are other 25+ year olds that have "no chance".
Yes, they still have salary - so that is great, but as an athelete, if you decide the rest of your playing career is to train your colleagues, then so be it for them. Most of the free world - If they can't play in WTT or ITTF /OG, they will go play in leagues and make a playing career out of it.

CTTA say they want to help the world - while don't send 2nd string A teamers to play in different leagues?
set up a sister-club and send in players, and the overseas players into Chinese leagues (even jia a/b/c etc)
I would say, if they have the players in mind, the Ma Te's and the lower rated ones... that would be a great win-win-win for everyone, or maybe they are better used as a practice partner?

How's that for a team that breed "clones" or 2/3 to serve 1/3, did they forget to get a chopper, or do choppers leave and enter the team by their own merit and volition??. Wu Yang and Hu Limei retired and that's exactly why the female team has struggled more against choppers in recent years. No choppers to practice with. Where are the choppers that should be serving WMY, WYD and co?? Where are the long pip players and co to mimic YXX, YJN , Grandma Ni?? The whole Chinese team is obviously a bunch of shakehanders trying to outcompete themselves for places in international tournaments, and cooperating when necessary for the team's goals.

There do bring in choppers, so i'm not sure why you think there is none.
There is none of old school Cpen players though, that is indeed something they can't fix.
if you feel the team is fair, then good for you. But ask any player that is on as the 2nd or 3rd player, see how much attention your personal coach gives you, compared to the main player.

It comes down to my point that players fate in the CNT depends on their prowess. If they don't like their career trajectory they can retire a la Zhou Yu, Yan An, Fang Bo etc. Very little compulsion apart from standard team protocols on training and strategy.

True. you listed the top players, so they atleast can still have a reputation that can give them an income.

Hashimoto and that other Japanese Chopper are not on the JNT, and have rarely played in the past few years, but it'll be ridiculous to think they don't practice with the JNT top 5 to keep their anti chopper skill level high. Any skill that isn't practiced atrophies. We see some of the top Japanese players experimenting with coaches, assistants and partners. It's the same thing like what happens in China; Japan keep them in clubs like Mikki House, China abandons the "libertarian" facade and put them on the national team if they qualify for it.

I don't know JNT as well as I know other teams.
Japan is still a very "club" centric system, and not a NT system like CNT is.
With the buildup to Tokyo, 15 players was choosen to have unlimited funding and then it became an indivdiual player system. The player hired a manager, coach, practice partners etc. I thought such system is actually very great - it is like Tennis where the player and his/her core group of support staff.
But JNT is special and this generation is sepecial too. The previous generation didn't get such luxury.

If you ever travelled to world junior circuits or youth curcuit today, the "JNT" contigent is actually way bigger than CNT. CNT's senior is still bigger though, but i'm not that clued up on JNT, but I do know a few things, especially watching them in training halls. 1 kid per table, and 3 to 5 adults there for 1 kid.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The players are there for both, Have any player in the last 10 years blatantly qualified for any competition by CNT's metrics and he/she was denied participation??

yes. haha, not sure if it is exactly inside 10 years (since we lost 3 years with covid)
Zeio can come up with a few.
Maybe if not exactly 10 years, maybe 15 years.
But I can think of a few womens players, but will need to check stats on dates and events.

The Chinese have a school of thought with regards to TT, Most countries have too, and it aggregates from "Coaching Influence". Are you saying there's a problem with that? Humans aren't perfect. It's natural that most players will flock to the school of thought. Nervetheless, they still produce penholders and choppers?? How did they sleep through the cracks?

well, CNT school of though is very complete, there are the only "national team" in the world.
There is no club team or provincial team, there is only 1 team and the players get release to the provincial team/club team for national games or super league games. Everywhere else in the world is different.

They do produce other styles, but look at what has happened with penholders and choppers. They behind the world there now.

Okay, Deng Yaping didn't almost make the team, that was shortsighted but without checking my data, that's more than 20 years ago maybe 30, there's always gonna be human influence and prejudice with regards to decisions, again nobody is perfect.

good

It seems because people have decent knowledge of Chinese TT history, people think it's a crutch to use to blame the team all the time because of their political affiliations/ beliefs, Are you saying Japanese, Korean, German and Taiwanese methods are picture perfect or the most "humane", they too have bureaucrats that have interrupted player's sojourn with their politics in the past, and even in the present. Their players have had a lot to say about the current qualification regime and the incentives with respect to points. What happened in Korea that Zeio uncovered should not happen in a DEMOCRACY. Nobody is harping on that. The right way to look at it is to learn from the past and look forward to the future. Besides none of these countries will behave much different from what the Chinese are doing if they were in China's shoes.

If you look where this convesation started, I am saying that CNT is one unit, one big unit of 20 to 30 players a dozen coaches, a delgation of 65, and every other "opponent" is maybe a delegation of 3 or 5.
You can't get such delgation unless you are weathly.
of course there is fractions within CNT too, each country does have they problems, but going back to my first post of this matter, CNT has a bunch of resources and I don't think any team will come close. The closes in resource is Japan, but they are far from being "1 unit", and CNT does force that 1 unit on, that is the law (since they are all party members)

 

[Shine]

yes it does hey. There is a lot of top down management, which is based on how things are govern.
You also seem to forget, every player is forced (or volunteer) to joined a political party as an active member too.
Which CNT player can take part in overseas leagues?
T League drama that happened few days ago is the perfect example.
The players really have no say - and compare that to a democratic society like Germany or France?
I guess you maybe not in a democratic society, but the freedom that many take for granted, is not really applicable. Many formal CNT players have spoken out about it - you should be able to engage them and take some other viewpoints other than mine.



actually it is CNT vs the rest of the world. Taiwan is the same as everywhere else.
Each player on the team has "equal" rights. You don't promote to national team to be training partners.
In CNT, a coach gets 1 main player (some times 2) and then 2 or 3 weaker players.
ML isn't a training partner for WCQ/FZD or viceversa.

Then, you have never spoken to any former chopper or coach in the Chinese system.
Speak to some, broaden your mind!


China being the founder of WTT, is the go to country to fill rosters. It is great that lower string gets to play, but unfair to other countries who can't send beyond the limit and don't get to squeeze in "extras". This is different to opportunities.
China approach other than making the roster look goods, is also there to block non Chinese players and to a extend, it has worked a lot.
Those players are not in it to hunt wr points, else you will see them taking part in more contenders and or even feeders. Go and check it out, 2023 is pretty much over, you have a whole year worth of rosters to check out.



Same as my answer above - 20~30 players to help the 5 have a tournament.
of cause it is just a job and the 20~30 gets paid to do it.
Do you see GNT have a mock tournament where team B is there to help team A prepare?



Japan is trying to implement a new method of OG selection. It is indeed very tough and unique. And to be honest - if you look deeper - it is the fairest of the lot. It performance over a very long period of time. Not just 1 weekend.

So Ma Te, he will never be in the WTTTC or WTTC or OG team right?
LJK and LGY will never go the olympics, but they are top 10 player
Same as HS and FB.
Ma Te is just so far back and there are other 25+ year olds that have "no chance".
Yes, they still have salary - so that is great, but as an athelete, if you decide the rest of your playing career is to train your colleagues, then so be it for them. Most of the free world - If they can't play in WTT or ITTF /OG, they will go play in leagues and make a playing career out of it.

CTTA say they want to help the world - while don't send 2nd string A teamers to play in different leagues?
set up a sister-club and send in players, and the overseas players into Chinese leagues (even jia a/b/c etc)
I would say, if they have the players in mind, the Ma Te's and the lower rated ones... that would be a great win-win-win for everyone, or maybe they are better used as a practice partner?


There do bring in choppers, so i'm not sure why you think there is none.
There is none of old school Cpen players though, that is indeed something they can't fix.
if you feel the team is fair, then good for you. But ask any player that is on as the 2nd or 3rd player, see how much attention your personal coach gives you, compared to the main player.

True. you listed the top players, so they atleast can still have a reputation that can give them an income.

I don't know JNT as well as I know other teams.
Japan is still a very "club" centric system, and not a NT system like CNT is.
With the buildup to Tokyo, 15 players was choosen to have unlimited funding and then it became an indivdiual player system. The player hired a manager, coach, practice partners etc. I thought such system is actually very great - it is like Tennis where the player and his/her core group of support staff.
But JNT is special and this generation is sepecial too. The previous generation didn't get such luxury.

If you ever travelled to world junior circuits or youth curcuit today, the "JNT" contigent is actually way bigger than CNT. CNT's senior is still bigger though, but i'm not that clued up on JNT, but I do know a few things, especially watching them in training halls. 1 kid per table, and 3 to 5 adults there for 1 kid.

Players joining the party for half hearted march pasts shouldn't make you this pressed, That's the "business as usual" part of China. It's just one party instead of the two party charade in other countries.
Players have no say but they can retire as they wish, they can play for another country or stay in the provincial team, some of them went on a strike when LGL was removed by the G.A.S until he was reinstated, or are you gonna say your all-knowing "sources" told you it was Liu's order for them to strike too. Most of what you complain about is their brand of professionalism, and it works for them. Why's the system where players have a full say not winning?? That's a big blight for your "human rights" shtick, because freer and autonomous players should be winning more.

What choppers do they bring in, that they have to rent Suh Hyowon?? Why can't we see these choppers practising in the big tourneys where they're needed the most. At least back these assertions.

I agree that it must be tough for 3rd players to get less coaching time, True. But the team has only a few coaches, and they don't have the resources to give everyone "equal" attention.

The players do the same drills, physical exercises and other things, so this attention may be overrated, There's hour long videos of ML practicing with FZD on YT; if that's not practice partners, I don't know what is.

There's no chances in the WTT but they all play in the Chinese leagues, what's the issue??

XYB and XP are playing in the French league, some are playing in Japanese league, well in my pov that's sending players to foreign leagues. Maybe you're seeing something different.

What's your solution for LGY and LJK, they're not retiring from the CNT despite the "oppression". You're insinuating for them to be able to play at the Olympics? I'm not sure Japan will allow those that come 4th in their qualifications to play at Olympics.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

some of them went on a strike when LGL was removed by the G.A.S until he was reinstated, or are you gonna say your all-knowing "sources" told you it was Liu's order for them to strike too.

Oh this, this was bigger than LGL.
Since an entire fraction was attacked. I would say the entire fraction fought back.
Following the right boss is very important.

Most of what you complain about is their brand of professionalism, and it works for them.

I am not complaining, but stating the fact that no other system can be the same, as there is just way more human rights for fairness. no one wants to be treated unequal.

Why's the system where players have a full say not winning?? That's a big blight for your "human rights" shtick, because freer and autonomous players should be winning more.

Well, same chinese system not winning other sports too.

What choppers do they bring in, that they have to rent Suh Hyowon?? Why can't we see these choppers practising in the big tourneys where they're needed the most. At least back these assertions.

when they tour, they might not have everything them, but check on the tours - where so many front line players do go as practice partner.
Suh one, could just be marketing for all I know.
But have you ever been with on tour before? If not, I'm speaking to a brick wall then.

I agree that it must be tough for 3rd players to get less coaching time, True. But the team has only a few coaches, and they don't have the resources to give everyone "equal" attention.

well, there is way more no3s and 4s than there is no 1.
If the same happens in school, there will be a problem right?
Teachers/coaches need to treat all fairly.

The players do the same drills, physical exercises and other things, so this attention may be overrated, There's hour long videos of ML practicing with FZD on YT; if that's not practice partners, I don't know what is.

overrated - okay, you must know better.

What's your solution for LGY and LJK, they're not retiring from the CNT despite the "oppression". You're insinuating for them to be able to play at the Olympics? I'm not sure Japan will allow those that come 4th in their qualifications to play at Olympics.

they can only stay on hey and hopefully one day, can break through, even though the chinese coaches i know says LGY will never fix is problem. Around 10 years ago, his provincial coach spoke out about it.

any ways, nice chatting to you.
I have proven my point that CNT is different to GNT and other NT and you seem to be agreeing a lot

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Cheng I Ching's clone prior to covid
顧若辰、王藝迪、李曉丹、李佳燚、車曉曦、劉曦、郭艷

 

[Shine]

Oh this, this was bigger than LGL.
Since an entire fraction was attacked. I would say the entire fraction fought back.
Following the right boss is very important.


I am not complaining, but stating the fact that no other system can be the same, as there is just way more human rights for fairness. no one wants to be treated unequal.


Well, same chinese system not winning other sports too.



when they tour, they might not have everything them, but check on the tours - where so many front line players do go as practice partner.
Suh one, could just be marketing for all I know.
But have you ever been with on tour before? If not, I'm speaking to a brick wall then.


well, there is way more no3s and 4s than there is no 1.
If the same happens in school, there will be a problem right?
Teachers/coaches need to treat all fairly.


overrated - okay, you must know better.


they can only stay on hey and hopefully one day, can break through, even though the chinese coaches i know says LGY will never fix is problem. Around 10 years ago, his provincial coach spoke out about it.

any ways, nice chatting to you.
I have proven my point that CNT is different to GNT and other NT and you seem to be agreeing a lot

Ah, yes the fractions story pops up again. What Fraction in the CNT was fighting against LGL's fraction?

Your theory that 15 JNT players had sorta unlimited resources for Tokyo when there was only 6 players sound implausible. Japan usually has article's that validate these "facts" that you claim. Anyone can make anything up.

These frontline players go on the tour as practice players because they are INELIGIBLE for the tournament, I don't understand why this is hard to grasp.

Equality and Fairness is a nuanced concept and not as streamlined as you're alluding to, To the obvious eye, Kato Miyu, Ojio Yuna even Miwa Harimoto do not have the amount of resources that Ito or Hayata is, Isn't that inequality in and of itself??
Even Kao, CCA and others do not have the resources that Lin has, Isn't that unfair, Nigeria is not as rich as Japan, Isn't that cruel to Aruna because of his potential that's been stymied due to Nigeria's political malaise? Why is Hayata picked by the JNT to play at a particular game but not other Japanese players??

I can come up with many other instances, so your "model" associations that treat everyone " fairly" has GROSS inequality in them if we plunge into the depth. But you can conveniently ignore that because they don't sign up to a party.

About the Internal trials, JNT literally puts up 32 players each in most these roving competitions they've held in the past couple of years, and we know the people going are only down to 4. So the Chinese do it for practice but Japan do it for fairness? You can't be saying this seriously...

So Wang Hao got the services of Suh Hyowon for the WTTTC FINAL because of "marketing"? Do you even hear yourself? This is a ludicrous claim to make.

The Teacher teaches every one fairly, and pays special attention to the top students who play at competitions. As long as the door to being a top student isn't predermined and is constantly up for grabs, that sounds like fair game to me. WCQ is almost no 1 in China now, he was just another national player in 2020 who was a "practice partner", that's enough reality for you to grasp.


It's a no brainer that all countries are different. Taipei NT is different from JNT, which is also different from GNT, that's not rocket science.

 

[longrange]

The other players there is a perfect example. What are they there for? for self enrichment? or to warm up the main players?

Not much of an answer after pages of cool stories. So they are there for?.. imitating whom exactly?

Imitation doesn't mean they will play in a top level, but we are talking about style and strategy. Not about highest skills
I think this is something you have failed to grasp

I failed to grasp the number and the players being imitated. Have you provided them?

 

[longrange]

Imitation doesn't mean they will play in a top level, but we are talking about style and strategy. Not about highest skills
I think this is something you have failed to grasp

You see, "they even forced players to change the equipment to better imitate" and "Dima be somebody's imitator for Dang Qiu" suddenly changed to "we are talking about style and strategy" and "they don't really need good players for that". Ok, if you say so.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Not much of an answer after pages of cool stories. So they are there for?.. imitating whom exactly?

I failed to grasp the number and the players being imitated. Have you provided them?

Cheng I Ching's clone prior to covid
顧若辰、王藝迪、李曉丹、李佳燚、車曉曦、劉曦、郭艷

maybe you can't read chinese - go google translate.

For other current ones I can think of:
Zhang Rui is Ito's one, if you haven't known it yet, been like that for 7 to 9 years maybe.
陳幸同、劉銘 for Hirano
Liu Fei for Suh

So, hope you happy.
Going to be busy tomorrow, as there is a tournament coming up this weekend.

 

[zeio]

It would've been much nicer to list the whole thing instead. Those players were responsible for imitating Lee Ho Ching, Doo Hoi Kem and Cheng I-Ching. From the order, it's obvious they are dead last and so considered to pose the least threat.

List released circa 2017/5/11, between ATTC 2017 and WTTC 2017.
Hirano Miu: Sun Yingsha, Wang Manyu, Chen Xingtong, Liu Ming
Ito Mima: Zhang Rui
Ishikawa Kasumi: Chen Ke, Gu Yuting
Hayata Hina: Liu Gaoyang, Wen Jia
Kim Song I, Suh Hyo Won, Kim Kyung Ah: Hu Limei, Liu Fei
Li Jie, Li Qing: Wu Yang
Petrissa Solja, Elizabeta Samara: Wen Jia, Liu Gaoyang, Gu Yuting
Feng Tianwei: Feng Yalan, Gu Ruochen
Yu Mengyu: Yuan Xuejiao, Guo Yan (not that Guo Yan)
Hou Meiling (AKA Hu Melek): Sun Mingyang, Zhang Rui
Lee Ho Ching, Doo Hoi Kem, Cheng I-Ching: Gu Ruochen, Wang Yidi, Li Xiaodan, Li Jiayi, Che Xiaoxi, Liu Xi, Guo Yan

http://sports.sina.com.cn/others/pingpang/2017-05-12/doc-ifyfeius7843121.shtml

Hirano and Miyazaki's comments after learning about the list.
https://www.hk01.com/即時體育/92196/乒乓球-中國隊4個陪練模仿備戰世界賽-平野美宇-有趣

奪得日本自1996年來首面亞洲賽金牌的平野美宇抱着「初生之犢不畏虎」精神，以笑回應︰「我被中國隊重視了？那很有趣！我的目標是在德國的世界賽再次擊敗中國女乒。我眼裏中國已不再強大和可怕。」日本乒乓球訓練部部長宫崎義仁更大膽推測「中國除了丁寧沒人是平野美宇對手」。

Hirano: "I'm getting the attention of China? That's very interesting! My goal is to beat them again at the WTTC in Dortmund. China is no longer as strong and intimidating in my eyes."
Miyazaki: "Other than Ding Ning, no one from China can match Hirano."