Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Emin]

My simple understanding of BH loop against all types of balls is that is always you always do the same movement, just at a different starting point and a different emphasis on spin/speed.

Against heavy underspin you Do 100% of the movement, from very low to high, long swing and movement with emphasis on Spin and Some speed, Hit the ball at around the middle of its backside (9o clock).
Against a Medium fast topspin Ball you only do about 30% of the movement, you start high, Hit the ball at about 11 o clock, give it some spin and little speed.
Against slow no Spin Ball, do about 70% of the movement, giving the ball Both Spin and speed, hitting the ball at around 10 o clock.

Obviously it is not exactly the same every time but just keep this in mind for Training,
Depending on the incoming ball:
- hitting point on the ball and racket angle ( go hand in hand)
- where you start the movement
- how much spin/speed you wanna give the ball

Too low starting point leads to hitting the ball on the back and a higher arc, good for underspin and a little bit faster Ball, Bad for the rest.
Keeping racket at about Ball jumping height and then adjusting Depending on your judgement of what movement you need.
Keep the backswing lose and Figure it out in training.

On Forehand, you kinda always start the same, but backhand takes more finetuning and small adjustments.

 

[Emin]

And again for training:
Pick one aspect and train specifically that for the next 1-3 training Sessions, Depending on how hard it is to make it automatic and a habit.
Keep your goal in mind, but take it step by step.
No more than 1-2 aspects per Training unit,
Maybe 1 unit FH, 1 BH,
Or 1 BH, 1 Footwork etc..

So for the back swing hitting point issue:
Next training, focus only on how you make the back swing and hitting point on the ball.
Repeat enough times thoughtfully until you dont need to anymore

 

[blahness]

Today at the club I specifically looked to play against some unconventional players. My BH feels quite comfortable now playing against your typically two-wing bloopers, but it still gets all out of sorts when a lot of variations are thrown at it. Today my opponent most of the time was a BH anti guy.

I can usually beat him pretty easily with a simple push to his BH and attack the returning shot strategy, but today I wanted to attack everything with my BH. Last time I tried that I lost to him 3-2. This time he only won 2 sets in 12 tries, so definitely an improvement. However, I found two weak areas that I need to work on.

First is the short no spin service. To attack that, I use the banana flick, but I had a lot of trouble getting the feeling of holding the ball to spin it. It seems to just bounce off my racket right away, and the result is a rather weak topspin which he can sometimes counter pretty well against. I found that adding body rotation helps, but it still didn't feel great. I need to practice a bit against it to find the best way to flick it.

The second is that I lower my racket too much when I loop backspins with my BH. Sometimes when the ball comes fast I even hit my own thigh. It also makes for an unnecessary upward movement before I go forward, which reduces consistency and power. I need to develop the habit of making the backswing toward my hip instead of my thigh. I've already known that my legs provide enough lift, so there's no need to lift with my arm, and during my forward swing I'm already going much more forward than upward than before. However, this bad habit on the backswing still hasn't been fixed yet.

With no spin it's important to hit it slightly on the top and go forward with less lift. Also go around the side when brushing to give it more spin yourself (less spin to borrow).

For the short no-spin serve, they are already expecting you to flick or chiquita it, so no matter how strong you can make it most likely they can return it. If you try to go for unconventional placements and change up rhythm this can introduce issues to their counters. Increasing quality works but at the expense of increasing your unforced error rates. I think it's also important to use different receives (short/long pushes for eg, other flick types, sideswipes) to keep them guessing.

For the 2nd point the important thing is not to have any arm backswing at all - this will ensure that your bat doesn't go to your thigh anymore. For all shots it's important to use the body to backswing not the arm.

 

[dingyibvs]

With no spin it's important to hit it slightly on the top and go forward with less lift. Also go around the side when brushing to give it more spin yourself (less spin to borrow).

For the short no-spin serve, they are already expecting you to flick or chiquita it, so no matter how strong you can make it most likely they can return it. If you try to go for unconventional placements and change up rhythm this can introduce issues to their counters. Increasing quality works but at the expense of increasing your unforced error rates. I think it's also important to use different receives (short/long pushes for eg, other flick types, sideswipes) to keep them guessing.

For the 2nd point the important thing is not to have any arm backswing at all - this will ensure that your bat doesn't go to your thigh anymore. For all shots it's important to use the body to backswing not the arm.

Thanks, I'm hesitant to put spider spin on the ball as it usually just comes right back with his anti rubber. It's also a bit harder for me to predict than LP which seems to do a better job of reversal. With anti it seems the ball comes back a bit more dead so less spin for me to borrow for the second shot. But I think you're right in that I probably shouldn't try to flick that every time, so I need to work on some other return strategies.

For the backspin I'm not sure how that works. My arm would be straight at the end of the forward swing, clearly it needs to be bent again so I can't entirely use my body for the backswing. I think what I'll do is bring my racket to my belly and use my body for the rest of the backswing, maybe that's what you meant?

I've found myself to have much more consistent and powerful BH loops over the table, perhaps it's because that forces my backswing to be no lower than the table? For longer backspin which are likely faster I may need a bigger swing to create more power, but probably still doesn't need to be much lower than the table.

On a side note re: body usage. I've found that my stance to be a bigger limiting factor there. I'm usually in a slight FH stance (so right leg behind, facing right a bit), so if I were to rotate my body I'd have to hit the ball further to the side of my body to have it land on the table. I'd then sacrifice the optimal hit box, which is more in front of the body. As such, I've found it to be more useful against slower shots e.g. backspin, services, or opportunity balls. In regular rallies I mostly just tense up the body.

 

[blahness]

Thanks, I'm hesitant to put spider spin on the ball as it usually just comes right back with his anti rubber. It's also a bit harder for me to predict than LP which seems to do a better job of reversal. With anti it seems the ball comes back a bit more dead so less spin for me to borrow for the second shot. But I think you're right in that I probably shouldn't try to flick that every time, so I need to work on some other return strategies.

For the backspin I'm not sure how that works. My arm would be straight at the end of the forward swing, clearly it needs to be bent again so I can't entirely use my body for the backswing. I think what I'll do is bring my racket to my belly and use my body for the rest of the backswing, maybe that's what you meant?

I've found myself to have much more consistent and powerful BH loops over the table, perhaps it's because that forces my backswing to be no lower than the table? For longer backspin which are likely faster I may need a bigger swing to create more power, but probably still doesn't need to be much lower than the table.

On a side note re: body usage. I've found that my stance to be a bigger limiting factor there. I'm usually in a slight FH stance (so right leg behind, facing right a bit), so if I were to rotate my body I'd have to hit the ball further to the side of my body to have it land on the table. I'd then sacrifice the optimal hit box, which is more in front of the body. As such, I've found it to be more useful against slower shots e.g. backspin, services, or opportunity balls. In regular rallies I mostly just tense up the body.

At the end of your previous stroke there has to be a reset step where you bend your elbow and go back to neutral position so your arm should already be bent with bat in front of you.

If you have bat near thigh at backswing, most likely your arm is relatively straight which suggests that you straightened your arm during the backswing. If you keep it your elbow bent at around 90 deg (ie not straightening or moving it) and purely use the hip for backswing, there isn't any way you'll reach your thigh with your bat (try it out!).

 

[ben1229]

Today at the club I specifically looked to play against some unconventional players. My BH feels quite comfortable now playing against your typically two-wing bloopers, but it still gets all out of sorts when a lot of variations are thrown at it. Today my opponent most of the time was a BH anti guy.

I can usually beat him pretty easily with a simple push to his BH and attack the returning shot strategy, but today I wanted to attack everything with my BH. Last time I tried that I lost to him 3-2. This time he only won 2 sets in 12 tries, so definitely an improvement. However, I found two weak areas that I need to work on.

First is the short no spin service. To attack that, I use the banana flick, but I had a lot of trouble getting the feeling of holding the ball to spin it. It seems to just bounce off my racket right away, and the result is a rather weak topspin which he can sometimes counter pretty well against. I found that adding body rotation helps, but it still didn't feel great. I need to practice a bit against it to find the best way to flick it.

The second is that I lower my racket too much when I loop backspins with my BH. Sometimes when the ball comes fast I even hit my own thigh. It also makes for an unnecessary upward movement before I go forward, which reduces consistency and power. I need to develop the habit of making the backswing toward my hip instead of my thigh. I've already known that my legs provide enough lift, so there's no need to lift with my arm, and during my forward swing I'm already going much more forward than upward than before. However, this bad habit on the backswing still hasn't been fixed yet.

For bh, I recommend small movement, faster speed, as use your wrist power to speed up and hit the ball in short distance.

 

[dingyibvs]

So I tried out the new technique a bit against a practice partner today, it went terribly. Not sure where the disconnect is, but it seemed like my arm was making the same motion except with a higher starting point. All the balls were heading way out lol. But when it did hit, it almost always had great quality. I need to find a way to make it work.

My training partner apparently is gonna play in a tournament this weekend, maybe @Der_Echte will be there too since it'll be in his town. So this session was mostly to prep him for the tournament. It was mostly him doing half-table FH loops. I needed blocking practice, so it works out. I'm now much better and more controlled in my blocking compared to last week.

When he's tired, I practiced my FH. I haven't had a real FH practice session in like forever, and I realized that I've lost the ability to adjust my height to the ball. This practice went a long way in regaining my touch in that, and I got sooooo much more consistent. I had been having the same low stance against all topspins, resulting in a very awkward motion when the ball comes a bit high, brushing over the top of the ball, which is rather inconsistent. Now I stand up a bit and loop it normally.

 

[Der_Echte]

I did not register as I thought I would be in Boston during the tourney, still might be, but if I am here, I will be at Sac Open for some of it.

 

[dingyibvs]

I did not register as I thought I would be in Boston during the tourney, still might be, but if I am here, I will be at Sac Open for some of it.

Too bad I have to host my in laws this weekend, gonna need to take my wife and her mom to San Jose for lunch and she wants to do something yet unplanned on Sunday. BTW, I'll be near the Swan and 888 when they go dress shopping after lunch on Sat. I got her permission to ditch them and go play TT for a couple hours. Any recommendations re: some open play opportunities?

 

[dingyibvs]

Just practiced a bit with the robot, BH opening loops only to test out the shorter technique. It's only a minor adjustment, really no big deal, it's now more compact and more powerful than before! I guess we were doing service/push/loop practice and there were so many variables and we only practiced for 5 mins so I couldn't figure out then what exactly the adjustments are. It just needed a little timing adjustment as the arm doesn't have to travel as much before hitting the ball.

 

[dingyibvs]

Had a short practice session today, some services (tried out some hook serves, that's the next one I want to learn), some BH flicks against backspin and no spin, and some BH opening loops. I've intermittently practiced the hook serve here and there, but today is the first time I'm practicing it for real. Made some progress, but it's gonna take a lot more time to become useful. For the flicks, I got quite a bit better. I watched a Fang Bo video teaching it, he's saying don't try to spin it too much, hit it a bit more, and the way to do that is that instead of explode right before contact as you would flicking a topspin, do it a bit before. I think that helped quite a bit. Against no spins I suppose it's kind of in between a topspin and a backspin. Both are still a work in progress.

As for BH opening loops, the new technique is coming along quite nicely. I went through my progression of exercises, from fixed positions to random positions to random position FH/BH to finally random position in and out followed by topspin return. I'm now able to achieve the same level of consistency but with more power and surprisingly, more control. Apparently, swinging from the thigh was the reason I had trouble loop driving down the line. Swinging from the hip, the motion becomes much simpler and more streamlined, it felt very natural. With the same motion, rotate my hip a bit and the shot will go cross table instead. It also became easier to loop half-long balls as my racket doesn't have to move as much to get to the ball to loop it.

Another surprising finding was how much I can use my body to make adjustments. Besides adjusting for height, I can also adjust for speed/depth. For a slower/shallower ball I can lean in more and then kick forward, of course. The real pleasant surprise is that for a faster ball I can lean back a bit and use my body to lift more. This way I can really minimize adjustments needed by the arm/hand, providing great consistency in both accuracy and quality. I have a feeling that once I'm more practiced with it, this will come in very, very handy in games. Using the body for adjustments, especially when I'm jammed by a deep/fast ball, should be a lot more reliable than using the arm/hand.

 

[blahness]

Had a short practice session today, some services (tried out some hook serves, that's the next one I want to learn), some BH flicks against backspin and no spin, and some BH opening loops. I've intermittently practiced the hook serve here and there, but today is the first time I'm practicing it for real. Made some progress, but it's gonna take a lot more time to become useful. For the flicks, I got quite a bit better. I watched a Fang Bo video teaching it, he's saying don't try to spin it too much, hit it a bit more, and the way to do that is that instead of explode right before contact as you would flicking a topspin, do it a bit before. I think that helped quite a bit. Against no spins I suppose it's kind of in between a topspin and a backspin. Both are still a work in progress.

As for BH opening loops, the new technique is coming along quite nicely. I went through my progression of exercises, from fixed positions to random positions to random position FH/BH to finally random position in and out followed by topspin return. I'm now able to achieve the same level of consistency but with more power and surprisingly, more control. Apparently, swinging from the thigh was the reason I had trouble loop driving down the line. Swinging from the hip, the motion becomes much simpler and more streamlined, it felt very natural. With the same motion, rotate my hip a bit and the shot will go cross table instead. It also became easier to loop half-long balls as my racket doesn't have to move as much to get to the ball to loop it.

Another surprising finding was how much I can use my body to make adjustments. Besides adjusting for height, I can also adjust for speed/depth. For a slower/shallower ball I can lean in more and then kick forward, of course. The real pleasant surprise is that for a faster ball I can lean back a bit and use my body to lift more. This way I can really minimize adjustments needed by the arm/hand, providing great consistency in both accuracy and quality. I have a feeling that once I'm more practiced with it, this will come in very, very handy in games. Using the body for adjustments, especially when I'm jammed by a deep/fast ball, should be a lot more reliable than using the arm/hand.

I think you pretty much got it spot on based on the descriptions, congrats! Now it'll just be about how to make it more consistent, moving to various balls and also adjusting for various spins etc...

 

[ben1229]

Hook server is cool, and useful.

 

[blahness]

Played against a old short pips penhold ex semi pro today. Damn this was eye opening to see all the different techniques on display (he mastered all the SP techniques ive seen pretty much and could vary them at will). I still got to deuce for the first 2 games thanks to my very tricky serves and the disguised BH opening loops + getting a few FH loopkills in, unfortunate I lost both games because of a few unlucky balls, but after that he figured my game out and it was all downhill from there, could only get maybe 5-6 points per game after that - it was obvious he was totally in control and I just couldn't produce the type of shot quality + consistency to trouble him.

The speed of the footwork and placement accuracy was really something else. Also it's crazy but he serves even spinnier with more disguise with his SP than I could do with my inverted rubbers lmao. His serve posture is basically the LGL serve posture and he can serve heavy under, no spin, pendulum sideunder,sidetop, hook sideunder, hook sidetop to all corners of the table at will, with the exact same preparation movement. It was such a huge struggle to return his serves, the movement was so damn small. His fast down the line hook serve is the dirtiest I've seen, he does it without looking + he actually hits the corners consistently with either sideunderspin,sidetopspin or no spin with all 3 being almost the same movement. Imma gonna copy this dirty trick - I learnt how he serves it when I watched him from the back.

I literally had more trouble receiving his serves than I did from the ex provincial player who serves a bit more straightforward.

 

[dingyibvs]

Played against a old short pips penhold ex semi pro today. Damn this was eye opening to see all the different techniques on display (he mastered all the SP techniques ive seen pretty much and could vary them at will). I still got to deuce for the first 2 games thanks to my very tricky serves and the disguised BH opening loops + getting a few FH loopkills in, unfortunate I lost both games because of a few unlucky balls, but after that he figured my game out and it was all downhill from there, could only get maybe 5-6 points per game after that - it was obvious he was totally in control and I just couldn't produce the type of shot quality + consistency to trouble him.

The speed of the footwork and placement accuracy was really something else. Also it's crazy but he serves even spinnier with more disguise with his SP than I could do with my inverted rubbers lmao. His serve posture is basically the LGL serve posture and he can serve heavy under, no spin, pendulum sideunder,sidetop, hook sideunder, hook sidetop to all corners of the table at will, with the exact same preparation movement. It was such a huge struggle to return his serves, the movement was so damn small. His fast down the line hook serve is the dirtiest I've seen, he does it without looking + he actually hits the corners consistently with either sideunderspin,sidetopspin or no spin with all 3 being almost the same movement. Imma gonna copy this dirty trick - I learnt how he serves it when I watched him from the back.

I literally had more trouble receiving his serves than I did from the ex provincial player who serves a bit more straightforward.

Yeah, SP when brushing finely is always spinnier than I expect. Services, pushes, etc. are really spinny. It really mess me up sometimes because a lot of other shots have way less spin than inverted, so you can't just play them like a less spinny inverted player.

 

[blahness]

Yeah, SP when brushing finely is always spinnier than I expect. Services, pushes, etc. are really spinny. It really mess me up sometimes because a lot of other shots have way less spin than inverted, so you can't just play them like a less spinny inverted player.

The guy I played also demonstrated doing a fast (downwards movement not upwards) ghost serve with SP. His wrist action was ridiculously explosive lol. I never played such spinny serves from SP ever before, did not even think it was possible to serve so spinny with SP. But the ridiculous thing was that he could vary the amount of spin with almost the same movement on serves or pushes, it could either be completely empty or just loaded, and the difference is extremely subtle - this is something that I reckon is close to impossible to do with inverted imo.

 

[dingyibvs]

At the club today I spent the first hour practicing against an older TPB guy. He has a tricky no toss reverse spin serve from his FH side, mostly down the line. I had mentioned before that I'm pretty weak against that service (though was in the context of a left hander serving pendulum from his BH corner, but it's the same). I got some really good practice against it and feel a lot better now. As expected, the new BH opening loop motion isn't quite ready for real match play yet as I can't quite execute it well without thinking just yet. That'll come in the next few weeks.

I also tried out the hook serve, that thing is straight nasty. When I served it right, he either popped it way up or tanked it into the net 80% of the time. I thought being an older Chinese dude he would've seen plenty of hook serves, so didn't expect it to be so effective. I'm gonna practice it a lot, as I can see it being a real weapon down the line.

Afterwards I played some doubles. BH feels a lot better now, I'm able to counter pretty well, but still can't drive very well. Even in singles my BH drive isn't too great, and in practice it also shows, so that's not really a surprise. My FH though is surprisingly back in form already. I think I only missed one counter loop in 9 sets. I think in future practice sessions I'll need to continue to focus on my BH, with a focus on the opening loop and BH drives. I just won't completely neglect my FH going forward.

 

[OvrChkn]

Played a good bit of practice matches this week, and one big component that I'm having trouble with is getting into position after playing my pendulum serve. When I get more fatigued, I definitely stay in one place. Thinking to serve starting more into the middle and develop my backhand serve more, so I can have that stability.

 

[NextLevel]

Played a good bit of practice matches this week, and one big component that I'm having trouble with is getting into position after playing my pendulum serve. When I get more fatigued, I definitely stay in one place. Thinking to serve starting more into the middle and develop my backhand serve more, so I can have that stability.

The quality and placement of the serve matters, there is a reason that most pendulum serves go into the backhand side, it is to limit the angle of the returner and make playing into the forehand riskier. That said, I'd you do not pivot, pendulum serve may not be appropriate. The key word is may because I have seem good backhand players use it after serving it into the middle of the table because most balls to the forehand are popped up for kills and their backhand topspins had tremendous spin. But the angles you limit with your spin and serve quality as just as important as your recovery speed, probably even more at the power levels. But if a better player is causing you trouble by putting the balmwherr you don't like it, don't make a big deal out of it, your recovery will catch up over time.

Working on your backhand serve is probably your best option just because the recovery demands are almost nil.

 

[OvrChkn]

The quality and placement of the serve matters, there is a reason that most pendulum serves go into the backhand side, it is to limit the angle of the returner and make playing into the forehand riskier. That said, I'd you do not pivot, pendulum serve may not be appropriate. The key word is may because I have seem good backhand players use it after serving it into the middle of the table because most balls to the forehand are popped up for kills and their backhand topspins had tremendous spin. But the angles you limit with your spin and serve quality as just as important as your recovery speed, probably even more at the power levels. But if a better player is causing you trouble by putting the balmwherr you don't like it, don't make a big deal out of it, your recovery will catch up over time.

Working on your backhand serve is probably your best option just because the recovery demands are almost nil.

The pivot is more inconsistent. Sometimes I stay with my hips away from the table, sometimes I can get the spacing I need for a 3rd ball attack. The footwork definitely loses me points the more matches I play, so I do more backhand serves. Better players just move me around everywhere on my pendulum from the backhand side.