Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[dingyibvs]

So I have this old racket assembled for guests, a Sanwei F3 with a very old sheet of T05 and a Nittaku H3 pro (turbo? Not sure) glued on. The T05 is full of potholes, has no bounce or grip, so nothing to speak of. The H3 has no tack left but still feels pretty grippy. Just for the heck of it, I decided to give it a try tonight.

The result was befuddling to say the least. The H3 side felt simply incredible. It had better than expected dwell, was excellent in loops and just incredible with drives. It felt super crisp, much more than even the TB ALC + D09 setup, yet it was super controllable. I don't know if it's the blade or the rubber.

The F3 (not F3 pro, which superceded it) is a light blade, I think about 80 grams, so it's not very fast. It's an inner-ALC design, I think Kiri core, but reportedly Ayous outer? It doesn't have very good feel, and is fairly stiff, overall it feels like a slower version of my 90 grams Viscaria, despite the very different construction. I played well with it before switching to the TB ALC, but I was catching the EJ bug at the time and went through the Yinhe T11, Stiga Clipper, and the Sanwei F3 in rapid succession. I really liked the F3 but I wanted to get a well known blade to end my EJing, so I got and stuck to the TB ALC. That's the same strategy I took a year ago, getting a W968 to stop EJing. It worked, I stuck to the TB ALC until I stopped playing ~10 years ago.

I then slapped on an old sheet of D09c onto the F3, and it felt fairly unremarkable. It was fairly similar to the TB ALC, not so much in feel as it has less feel than the TB ALC, but the ball trajectory was similar. I think I'll try this setup out against some real people tomorrow and see how that feels. I'm glad I have the resources now to EJ while still keeping my regular setup stable!

 

[Der_Echte]

Had an exceptional night last night in Boston on my only match... played vs a decades long solid 2100+ player and after hitting edge of bat on 5 shots in game 1, reduced that to 2 per game

This dude got serves and it looks like he isn't trying, simply smooth and control. I was finally able to get my BH aggressive flip receive going on... so he moved it around and also fast/deep... we traded games to 2:2 he received nearly all my serves short FH and amazingly out of character, I did strong FH hits or flips on them... I rarely do that, but it just looked like he was sending ball longer/higher... but not... and I was already committed going strong forward shot, so it worked. He made me dude a superman FH cross step to get an angled topspin and it was glorious. No one would believe a 110 kg near 60 year old dude would move more than one step.

I led 5:4 at change around... but dude is too experienced to worry.

Spent the next 2-3 hrs working with a friend in developing a short arm BH hit. This biomechanic is the foundation for BH topspin.... all the topspins will use this biomechanic with differing amounts of wrist preload and how low or side prep is. My friend not natural at the shot, but he understands how to set leverage... his issue is he does not naturally move shoulder in socker without turning shoulders chest... important to stay squared to target. He now has all the knowledge needed and how to dry practice in chair, in front of mirror, and at table.

His issue is like many players' issue... WAY TOO MUCH MOTION... all that un-necessary motion gets in the way of timing, consistency and power.

 

[Jslick89]

Had an exceptional night last night in Boston on my only match... played vs a decades long solid 2100+ player and after hitting edge of bat on 5 shots in game 1, reduced that to 2 per game

This dude got serves and it looks like he isn't trying, simply smooth and control. I was finally able to get my BH aggressive flip receive going on... so he moved it around and also fast/deep... we traded games to 2:2 he received nearly all my serves short FH and amazingly out of character, I did strong FH hits or flips on them... I rarely do that, but it just looked like he was sending ball longer/higher... but not... and I was already committed going strong forward shot, so it worked. He made me dude a superman FH cross step to get an angled topspin and it was glorious. No one would believe a 110 kg near 60 year old dude would move more than one step.

I led 5:4 at change around... but dude is too experienced to worry.

Spent the next 2-3 hrs working with a friend in developing a short arm BH hit. This biomechanic is the foundation for BH topspin.... all the topspins will use this biomechanic with differing amounts of wrist preload and how low or side prep is. My friend not natural at the shot, but he understands how to set leverage... his issue is he does not naturally move shoulder in socker without turning shoulders chest... important to stay squared to target. He now has all the knowledge needed and how to dry practice in chair, in front of mirror, and at table.

His issue is like many players' issue... WAY TOO MUCH MOTION... all that un-necessary motion gets in the way of timing, consistency and power.

eliminating that excess wrist motion (thanks to you) improved my backhand tenfold in literally 30 minutes. still a lot of work to do though....like focusing on the impact zone and timing. hopefully i can get a bh loop going sometime this year.

 

[Der_Echte]

Thanks @Jslick89 , like you, my friend here wants to use a ton of flippy floppy wrist on bh and it only gets in the way... plus he wants to over use the arm.

one day he will get how to set the leverage to make it easy to use a short forearm and he will win a lot of points.

 

[dingyibvs]

I've noticed that on BH, it's bad to forward swing too far, as in your wrist should not radial deviate too much at the end of your stroke (thumb shouldn't be too close to your arm). OTOH, to get the maximum power, you should ulnar deviate as much as possible on the backswing, and really bring your racket close to the ball and snap your wrist with power at the last possible second. Again, must take care not to overswing. If you have to overswing for the shot, then you're swinging too early.

I'm simplifying the biomechanics here, there's various levels of supination going on as well, but I think you get the gist of it: backswing a lot, don't over forward swing for the best power. The caveat here is that wrist usage should be learned after arm usage, so to start learning the BH I've found it useful to not active use the wrist at all and find the timing and power generation with my arm first.

 

[Der_Echte]

I've noticed that on BH, it's bad to forward swing too far, as in your wrist should not radial deviate too much at the end of your stroke (thumb shouldn't be too close to your arm). OTOH, to get the maximum power, you should ulnar deviate as much as possible on the backswing, and really bring your racket close to the ball and snap your wrist with power at the last possible second. Again, must take care not to overswing. If you have to overswing for the shot, then you're swinging too early.

I'm simplifying the biomechanics here, there's various levels of supination going on as well, but I think you get the gist of it: backswing a lot, don't over forward swing for the best power. The caveat here is that wrist usage should be learned after arm usage, so to start learning the BH I've found it useful to not active use the wrist at all and find the timing and power generation with my arm first.

Yes.

Learn leverage of elbow in front, upper arm forward and almost even to ground, little wrist preload, very little. On swing go forward with lower arm, let wrist go into ball at impact... tiny amount and FIRM up. This is the BH hit and the biomechanics are pretty much the same for all BH top spins and the differences are in how low or side you prep swing and how much you use wrist and how much you firm up at impact.

You can think that all BH top spins borrow similar biomechanics from the BH hit...

... and that progression in learning happens faster when a player learns and masters the biomechanics for the BH hit... everything gets way easier to learn and implement from there.

 

[Der_Echte]

I did not mention how far to swing... middle of strike zone is maybe 30 cm from body usually on left... not much follow through if any needed for hit or fast loop... more for medium loop and more follow through for slow heavy spin loop.

 

[blahness]

So there's a shot that is kinda disgusting to deal with which I haven't had too many solutions against.

Usually, a TT adage is that after you go deep long, the returned ball will have to be long too.

So on long serves or even a fast long push/flick, that's what I would expect. But recently what I found out is that certain high level players with amazing touch (occasionally with help of pips) can actually return these deep balls short or half long. It kinda blew my mind a bit but i tested it with my practice partner who can do it - and it is indeed half long or even short.

Now this is quite disturbing because I already prepared for a long return I can loop and suddenly I can't loop it anymore because of the length. So I'm forced to step in to push it again and because it's out of my expectations I'm not in the best position and can only give an easy ball for them to loopkill/finish off.

what is the best way to train /deal with these kinds of situations?

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

So there's a shot that is kinda disgusting to deal with which I haven't had too many solutions against.

Usually, a TT adage is that after you go deep long, the returned ball will have to be long too.

So on long serves or even a fast long push/flick, that's what I would expect. But recently what I found out is that certain high level players with amazing touch (occasionally with help of pips) can actually return these deep balls short or half long. It kinda blew my mind a bit but i tested it with my practice partner who can do it - and it is indeed half long or even short.

Now this is quite disturbing because I already prepared for a long return I can loop and suddenly I can't loop it anymore because of the length. So I'm forced to step in to push it again and because it's out of my expectations I'm not in the best position and can only give an easy ball for them to loopkill/finish off.

what is the best way to train /deal with these kinds of situations?

I hateeeeeeee pips!

I had this person who used to use Chinese tacky on FH ( C-Pen user ) and I also follow the same strategy. Push long to his BH, wait for a long ball to attack. Now, he changes to short-pips on FH like Matthias Falck and he can do short drop short on the FH near the net. It defies physics. I hateeeeeeee pips.

 

[dingyibvs]

Had a nice long training session with my training partner today. My BH counter (close to the table loop) is pretty deadly now against blocks, but he can't really do that yet so we worked a lot on his BH counter. I'm continually improving my BH drive, it's getting more and more consistent, but more work is needed before it's game ready. Training session with him is the only time I practice my FH, so I got some of that in as well. My blocking is getting better and better, and I feel more comfortable using it in games as well.

I also tried out my other 2 setups, the TB ALC with D09c on both sides, and the F3 with D09c on FH and Nittaku H3 on the BH side. That was a pretty interesting experience. With the TB ALC, there was surprisingly little adjustment I needed to make. It felt crisper and more direct than the W968, but when hit hard it still had good flex and created great spin on the FH side. With the F3, the FH shots felt a bit weak. It's quite direct, but didn't flex enough when hit hard and the ball didn't have as good of an arc to it.

Flipping to the BH side and things got a bit more interesting. The TB ALC still felt as expected, and I didn't feel a big difference with the F3 when I used the D09c side. I guess I can't hit quite hard enough to feel its lack of flex there. The H3 however was very different. It had great spin and dwell when I looped, and when I drove it flew out like a rocket. I think I'm gonna get a new sheet and put it on the TB ALC to see how it feels. Maybe it could be a better BH rubber than the D09c?

 

[dingyibvs]

So there's a shot that is kinda disgusting to deal with which I haven't had too many solutions against.

Usually, a TT adage is that after you go deep long, the returned ball will have to be long too.

So on long serves or even a fast long push/flick, that's what I would expect. But recently what I found out is that certain high level players with amazing touch (occasionally with help of pips) can actually return these deep balls short or half long. It kinda blew my mind a bit but i tested it with my practice partner who can do it - and it is indeed half long or even short.

Now this is quite disturbing because I already prepared for a long return I can loop and suddenly I can't loop it anymore because of the length. So I'm forced to step in to push it again and because it's out of my expectations I'm not in the best position and can only give an easy ball for them to loopkill/finish off.

what is the best way to train /deal with these kinds of situations?

I only face this occasionally, as the level of players I go up against can't do this with any degree of regularity, but I haven't found anything reliable except just to be ready to move in and out.

 

[blahness]

I only face this occasionally, as the level of players I go up against can't do this with any degree of regularity, but I haven't found anything reliable except just to be ready to move in and out.

Yeah this is one of the most annoying shots I face now.... and it's always to the short FH where I can't chiquita it strongly The problem is that I have to be prepared for the long fast return too. On my good days I can just lunge forward and do whatever I want with the short ball (flick, redrop short, aggressive long pushes etc) but if I'm late I can only return it weakly which then just gets predictably loopkilled.... which is even worse because I already lunged forward and am in a bad position.

 

[blahness]

Did a lot of multiball training with close table BH loop + my new close table FH loop that I would classify as more like a close table counterloop which I view as the most advanced continuation to defend against a switch to my FH. I'm getting the hang of it now - basically with footwork there is a "mini cross step" of sorts where I load up the right leg and then land on the left - the left leg can be placed very flexibly depending on the ball. Landing on left leg is extremely important to ensure continuity. The most important thing is to keep the bat above elbow and do not drop it otherwise the backswing will be too slow for the ball.

I managed to make it more consistent today yay, was landing most of them when I got into position well.

 

[dingyibvs]

Did a lot of multiball training with close table BH loop + my new close table FH loop that I would classify as more like a close table counterloop which I view as the most advanced continuation to defend against a switch to my FH. I'm getting the hang of it now - basically with footwork there is a "mini cross step" of sorts where I load up the right leg and then land on the left - the left leg can be placed very flexibly depending on the ball. Landing on left leg is extremely important to ensure continuity. The most important thing is to keep the bat above elbow and do not drop it otherwise the backswing will be too slow for the ball.

I managed to make it more consistent today yay, was landing most of them when I got into position well.

Man, I really want to get started working on stuff like that. Fast rallies are so exciting! Unfortunately today, I've found out that since I've been focusing on the BH counter and BH drive the last couple of weeks, I've really deteriorated in the BH opening loop. So frustrating. I'll just have to practice more. I'm getting a bit better with body usage, but I think I've fallen back to reaching my hand way too low.

Watching SYS just now, her hand really doesn't fall much below the table for BH opening loops. I need to train myself to do that. I just need to make sure I approach the ball from the bottom like in Ti Long's video, and then brush. I think it's a bit like a banana flick with a longer backswing, is that right?

 

[dingyibvs]

At the club today I tried out all 3 of my recently glued up blades in real games. The TB ALC felt quite bouncy in the short game, and I can definitely feel the lack of dwell in brush loops. The brush loop part isn't a big deal, but the bounciness in the short game makes a pretty big difference. The F3 surprisingly was quite good in the short game, I guess the inner composite design really helps here. The Nittaku H3 feels really hard and fast, I tried it out on the FH side and it's quite a beast. I'm very surprised by the H3, and almost as surprised by the F3. I'm sticking to the W968 of course, but maybe one day I'll try out the F3?

I think instead of sticking the new NH3 onto the W968, I'll glue it onto my provincial W968 first and try it out.

BTW, while I was quite dismayed with my BH opening loop today, I've also hit some of the best shots I've ever done. I again partnered with the weakest player there, and so I had to do the attacking. Against a much better pair, I had 2 flicks, one FH, 1 BH, back-to-back where I had to run in all the way from way behind the table to a slightly high ball near the net and launch a thunderous flick to finish the point. Then against another pair one opponent hit a big full body loop toward my body, I pivoted and counterlooped with all my power with my knees nearly touching the ground to land the shot and win the point. Best loop I've ever made for sure, I felt like WCQ lol!

 

[dingyibvs]

Inspired by the fine playing of the fine ladies, I started practicing the new backspin loop technique while watching them play. Hot damn it worked so well! Just a bigger motion banana flick, that's all I had to do! Add in a copious amount of body rotation and it's got plenty of power. I tried it against some barely half-long serves (hit my BH rubber on the table a few times) that sometimes double bounce, and I just can now judge the ball and either banana flick or loop to boot. This is turning out to be a fantastic night of TT watching and practicing!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I hateeeeeeee pips!

I had this person who used to use Chinese tacky on FH ( C-Pen user ) and I also follow the same strategy. Push long to his BH, wait for a long ball to attack. Now, he changes to short-pips on FH like Matthias Falck and he can do short drop short on the FH near the net. It defies physics. I hateeeeeeee pips.

you should watch Adam bobrow visiting LYJ
and played the coach (you may remember I posted a photo with him before)
coach uses SP on FH too

and this is another famous guy I know very well.
he is the one coaching the young kid who is using Ma Long's rubbers from Ma Long.
Former Shandong Champion in his playing days, and once was the youngest CTTA international certified coach in China.

 

[dingyibvs]

Got my new Nittaku H3 today, glued it up to my provincial W968. I have an old sheet of D09c on the FH side. The provincial W968 has a thicker handle than the national version, and a smaller head even after I shaved down the national version a bit. Gonna try it out later today at the club. I haven't played with the provincial W968 yet, so not sure how that compares to the national one, but it definitely has better balance with the thicker handle and smaller head.

The NH3 is pretty heavy, as has been described in reviews. Can't weigh the cut weight obviously since I just glued it, but the setup is 198 grams. That's 2 grams heavier than my regular setup which has a slightly heavier blade, a bigger FH rubber with more glue, and ~1.5 grams of counterweight on the handle. So my guess is that it's about 5 grams heavier than the D09c.

 

[latej]

The NH3 is pretty heavy, as has been described in reviews. Can't weigh the cut weight obviously since I just glued it, but the setup is 198 grams. That's 2 grams heavier than my regular setup which has a slightly heavier blade, a bigger FH rubber with more glue, and ~1.5 grams of counterweight on the handle. So my guess is that it's about 5 grams heavier than the D09c.

NTH3PTB is a pretty cool rubber imho, but after a while I realized I need to be a bigger monster to use it. Due to its hardness and heavy-weight it is super controllable, and if you hit really full power it feels great and also zero danger of bottoming, but in a lot of normal strokes or when you can't put more power it's kind of damping and I want a bit more speed, a bit more easily accessible.

So, curious whether your love story is gonna be longer than mine ;-)

 

[blahness]

Man, I really want to get started working on stuff like that. Fast rallies are so exciting! Unfortunately today, I've found out that since I've been focusing on the BH counter and BH drive the last couple of weeks, I've really deteriorated in the BH opening loop. So frustrating. I'll just have to practice more. I'm getting a bit better with body usage, but I think I've fallen back to reaching my hand way too low.

Watching SYS just now, her hand really doesn't fall much below the table for BH opening loops. I need to train myself to do that. I just need to make sure I approach the ball from the bottom like in Ti Long's video, and then brush. I think it's a bit like a banana flick with a longer backswing, is that right?

Yep some of these fast rallies are super exciting and fun to practice. But tbh it's really quite tiring to push my speed limits like that. My practice partner counters and changes directions at crazy speeds so every microsecond savings in stroke efficiency is important.

I'm not sure whether it is that the loop is like the banana flick or the banana flick is like the loop. The modern BH method has the elbow position quite similar between the BH loop and banana flick. If you dont drop your racket for the BH loop then it becomes even more similar.

Like what I written previously, the big advantage is that the stroke works against long, half long and short balls. No more hesitation and this is a huge benefit in BH serve receive.

There is a banana flick variant with high elbow position that creates disturbing sidespin but I'm not in favor of that stroke because you cannot loop long serves with it.

If you watch Chen Meng vs Miwa they were all using fast long serves like no tomorrow to jam the chiquita and it was working like magic. I remember seeing almost no short serves in that final game lol.