Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

I think it is pretty pointless to complain about illegal serves, because even in the higher german leagues (which have an umpire for every match) they never get called out. There are even players that really learned to exactly hold the passive hand infront of the ball when they hit it on the serve and thereby blocking the line of sight for the opponent.
I also thought that i should learn some illegal serve to f*ck these people off, when they blatantly fail to properly serve, but what do you really want to do ?

The only thing i could come up with is a waldner'esque down the line serve where i basically hit the ball infront of my stomach and make it shoot out beneath my passive arm. While waldner would keep the passive arm back to not obstruct the view onto the ball, i would keep the throwing hand/arm up in front, so the ball really comes out under my arm pit basically.

The other thing i do is occasionally throw the ball backwards on backspin serves to generate more spin. This one is easy to see for better players anyways and only gives cheap points against opponents that dont watch the serve properly.

No doubt, the point is not necessarily to complain about illegal serves, the point is that he didn't realize they were illegal, so I am thinking, maybe the serves are not as bad as they look on camera. There were other points I wanted to make, but at this point, Gozo does realize he is who he is, just as I am who I am. After you have posted for a while, people get a good idea of what your MO is, what you like and don't like etc., when you listen and when you don't etc., whether you are willing to work on what you do not enjoy etc. So nothing we say will be nothing that Gozo hasn't heard before, the problem is that it will hardly make a difference until Gozo is frustrated enough and wants to improve enough to try something different, and whether he will be able to do the training to recondition the habits formed, that is another battle by itself. One of the beautiful things about table tennis is the size of the table and the weight of the ball, it makes skills like touch and control just as important as power and speed. That said, in the end, you do what you enjoy, that is the most important thing with hobbies.

 

[blahness]

ITTF World Team Event is ongoing; so a couple of weeks ago, someone from my club suggested to the office bearers that my club should also host a similar event just for fun.

My club closed Internal Team Event was held yesterday and I participated. I am placed at the lowest rung ( understandably ). The format is round robin so I also get to play against top tier player.

Below are three videos I recorded. Feel free to comment and critique.

Video One:
This elderly gentleman is mid tier, perhaps slightly above me. I learned from my peer he was in his youth a provincial representative. He came from the era of speed glue & Sriver. You can really see his really ol'skool style pf playing: Fishing / Lobbing and slow spinny loop with placement as his main weapon. He won 2-1. Due to the number of matches to be played, all games are played best of three sets.

Game 2: This is a doubles game. I usually tend to do better in Doubles.

Game 3: This game was actually played first and my opponent was a Tier One player, several level higher than I am. Watch how he destroy me. On my personal defense, this was my first match of the day and I was not mentally prepared to face a player much better than I am. You can see my hesitation and sheepishness here. My opponent took less than five minutes to send me packing.

Few comments:

1) when you do the FH serve, you are still using the arm for the most part. There was way too many occasions that you were not ready for the return after your opponent successfully returned your serve. The correct way to serve is to transfer your weight to right foot during backswing, rotate body and transfer your weight to the left foot during the ball contact, and then use the momentum from the weight transfer/rotation to return yourself to ready position by the second bounce of your serve. You cannot return to ready position in time without this weight transfer, so just do it. Also weight transfer and body rotation will make your serves many times more dangerous and spinny.

2) bounce on your knees or shuffle weight between left and right leg when the ball is in the air prior to the opponent contacting the ball during their serve. If you don't do that you'll always be 1 step slower and will be jammed by any balls that don't fit your expectations. You need to be ready for all serve types and placements and this is the way to do it.

3) you need to be brave enough to loop all long serves especially on BH. If you're scared of the underspin just open your racket angle more and hit it more upwards (note it's not pure brushing - pure brush will fail against heavy backspin beyond your brushing level). See below for illustration - basically it's hitting the ball upwards.

Imo once you learn this way of neutralising backspin, looping fast long backspin is easy.

If you don't loop long serves, it is a huge weakness that every good server will abuse to the max.

4) if you can't read the serve movement, you have to read the ball trajectory (the main method I'm using at the moment). Topspin balls always accelerate and backspin balls always slow down even from the 1st bounce. Once you have this understanding it will improve your serve receive dramatically.

5) with serve receive you're not using your body to control the ball, most of it is arm only bumps which is why there is a very low error tolerance in your shots. Think of absorbing the ball momentum and spin with your body, then releasing the ball like a spring.

One way to drill this feeling is to ask your partner to serve the ball wherever, and your job is simply to move to the ball, catch the ball with your hand (no racket), and then throw it back to the table with control. Even the CNT does these exercises regularly.

 

[blahness]

Guys,

Wanna ask, with my tendency to FH smash for points, do you think Nittaku Goriki Kaisoku rubber would be ideal for me? I mean, this rubber product description says it is a rubber made for flat-hitter. It looks like a perfect match for me. I didn't know such a rubber exist.

Gozo, if you like to FH smash, the best rubber is something like Rakza PO or Victas Spectol type of short pips. There are OK inverted rubbers for smashing but none of them even come close to the level of short pips when it comes to smashing. You can see how effective they are in the recent Indian team successes against even CNT level players.

If you don't like looping much why not just switch to short pips? You would be able to "hulk smash" all day long lol.

If you don't even want to loop long serves on your BH and just like to push all day long - again inverted is the wrong choice - LPs are the most effective at pushing and swiping the ball. Also has the benefit of making you close to immune on serve receive as its almost completely insensitive to serve spin haha.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

I think it similar for most "beginners" that doubles feels easier to them. The points you raised are valid and i would add a few perhaps unnoticed ones regarding doubles.

- if you perform badly and give weak or attackable returns, your team partner can either even that out by being very good. This leads to you thinking that you perform better than you are, because if you receive a serve weak and the return gets smashed, it is your partners problem, not yours.

- one of the hardest things for beginners is to execute a game plan and exploit weaknesses of the opponent to get attackable balls. When you play doubles you don't need to do that, because your more secure doubles partner can actually generate opportunities for you to attack. You will be able to attack balls that you would not be able to attack, because you did not master how to prepare them yet.

regarding your videos, i wonder if you really play baracuda currently, because that is a very controlled (G-1'esque) rubber that does not have too much catapult. There are quite a few occurences where you fail to receive the ball well/short/low and not even hit the table. Perhaps the blade is making it harder to control the short game, but Baracuda should not be the culprit here.

I did not watch all of the videos until the end but to me it really seems like your level has dropped or the opponents where not playing to your strength's, because i thought i remember seeing videos from you where you had more opportunities to attack and you smashed more. To me that was way more impressive than these latest videos. Perhaps it was just the opponents not fitting your playstyle.

I counted in the doubles game, I made eight unforced error while my partner made four. I think don't know, I was playing too sheepishly that day. I mainly push and dare not attack, and if I attack, my ball goes into the net. I lost my confidence and it went downhill. I played very robotic, my movement is slow and not fluid. I was most of the time hesitant and seem lost. I really sux at that game.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Few comments:

1) when you do the FH serve, you are still using the arm for the most part. There was way too many occasions that you were not ready for the return after your opponent successfully returned your serve. The correct way to serve is to transfer your weight to right foot during backswing, rotate body and transfer your weight to the left foot during the ball contact, and then use the momentum from the weight transfer/rotation to return yourself to ready position by the second bounce of your serve. You cannot return to ready position in time without this weight transfer, so just do it. Also weight transfer and body rotation will make your serves many times more dangerous and spinny.

2) bounce on your knees or shuffle weight between left and right leg when the ball is in the air prior to the opponent contacting the ball during their serve. If you don't do that you'll always be 1 step slower and will be jammed by any balls that don't fit your expectations. You need to be ready for all serve types and placements and this is the way to do it.

3) you need to be brave enough to loop all long serves especially on BH. If you're scared of the underspin just open your racket angle more and hit it more upwards (note it's not pure brushing - pure brush will fail against heavy backspin beyond your brushing level). See below for illustration - basically it's hitting the ball upwards.

View attachment 28466
Imo once you learn this way of neutralising backspin, looping fast long backspin is easy.

If you don't loop long serves, it is a huge weakness that every good server will abuse to the max.

4) if you can't read the serve movement, you have to read the ball trajectory (the main method I'm using at the moment). Topspin balls always accelerate and backspin balls always slow down even from the 1st bounce. Once you have this understanding it will improve your serve receive dramatically.

5) with serve receive you're not using your body to control the ball, most of it is arm only bumps which is why there is a very low error tolerance in your shots. Think of absorbing the ball momentum and spin with your body, then releasing the ball like a spring.

One way to drill this feeling is to ask your partner to serve the ball wherever, and your job is simply to move to the ball, catch the ball with your hand (no racket), and then throw it back to the table with control. Even the CNT does these exercises regularly.

Nice points blah.
On the serve and move into ready position, this is something Carl has pointed out early and I am aware of my short-coming on this. I mentally was telling myself to move my legs, but when it comes to game play, I forget how to move. I tried doing this even during my serve practice, but practice and actual game play are different beast altogether.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Gozo, if you like to FH smash, the best rubber is something like Rakza PO or Victas Spectol type of short pips. There are OK inverted rubbers for smashing but none of them even come close to the level of short pips when it comes to smashing. You can see how effective they are in the recent Indian team successes against even CNT level players.

If you don't like looping much why not just switch to short pips? You would be able to "hulk smash" all day long lol.

If you don't even want to loop long serves on your BH and just like to push all day long - again inverted is the wrong choice - LPs are the most effective at pushing and swiping the ball. Also has the benefit of making you close to immune on serve receive as its almost completely insensitive to serve spin haha.

Pimples on Gozo??? N-E-V-E-R!!!!!!!!!!

pssst: I got T64 ready on my blade. Gonna hulk smash to my heart content this evening.


She-HULK use T64 too...

 

[jk1980]

I counted in the doubles game, I made eight unforced error while my partner made four. I think don't know, I was playing too sheepishly that day. I mainly push and dare not attack, and if I attack, my ball goes into the net. I lost my confidence and it went downhill. I played very robotic, my movement is slow and not fluid. I was most of the time hesitant and seem lost. I really sux at that game.

I definitely know that situation when you play too cowardly because you don't want to make your team lose by doing too many errors. I surely have this mode of my doubles partner is wildly attacking himself but losing many points like this. I always think "if i start losing that many points as well this game will be over in under 5 minutes", so I hold back.
What helps is communicating with the partner. Find the weaker partner of the opponent and agree too mostly attack his balls only. This way only one player per set goes gung ho

 

[blahness]

Nice points blah.
On the serve and move into ready position, this is something Carl has pointed out early and I am aware of my short-coming on this. I mentally was telling myself to move my legs, but when it comes to game play, I forget how to move. I tried doing this even during my serve practice, but practice and actual game play are different beast altogether.

Yes, but the reason why you can't do it is because you don't do the weight transfer + body rotation as the key mechanism of the serve. Its not about moving legs manually - everything is part of that same movement.

Getting back to ready position is all about riding that rotational momentum from your weight transfer/rotation during your serve.

 

[blahness]

Pimples on Gozo??? N-E-V-E-R!!!!!!!!!!

pssst: I got T64 ready on my blade. Gonna hulk smash to my heart content this evening.


She-HULK use T64 too...

It's no shame to use pimples and looking at your strokes and how you prefer to play, SP FH + LP BH seems like the deadliest combo. In fact the Indian women team plays almost like you lol. I reckon you would play at least 3 levels higher if you switched, you're not exactly maximising the benefits of inverted play imo with how you're playing.

Look at how effective this is!

 

[dingyibvs]

After my BH-focused club session last Tuesday which I described earlier, I figured out that I'm simply not judging the trajectory of the ball very well on the BH side. Both timing and height are off. As folks like @Der_Echte and I think @NextLevel have pointed out, you should be able to judge a ball's location and trajectory as soon as it's hit, but while I'm doing OK in that regard on the FH side, I'm terrible with that on the BH side.

As such, I'm switching up my training a bit. To start I had the robot serve me balls at 3 different heights and then I try to loop with spin and then try to drive with power. Due to the way the robot works, which bounces off an adjustable plate on top to change the ball's height, different heights also mean different speed as the ball bounces harder against the plate and thus loses more energy when the trajectory is lower.

First session on Thursday was terrible, I'm missing a great majority of the shots, and much of the time not even making contact with the ball altogether. Today it went much, much better. I slowly began to mentally process each shot better and better as it flew toward me, and timed my swings to the anticipated trajectory of the ball. The W968 being the strict teacher it is, let me know when I didn't time each shot exactly right. Misjudging the ball's height would cause the shot to go long or into the net, so I had to get that right as well. Then I added some randomness laterally, which was trivial to adjust to compared to adjusting for height and speed differences but was good to practice footwork so my feet don't get lazy while I focus on timing and height adjustments.

Next session I'll start adding some more speed differences. Once I get better with that I can do a bit less of those drills and start working on improving my opening loop consistencies as well.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

@blahness ,

hey Bro! Thank you so much.

I tried your bouncy-bouncy thingamagik recommendation and that weight rock-n-roll thingamagiki too during my serve and it had positive effect.

My ball goes faster, nearer to the net and skid outwards rather than bounce upwards. I created more aces than before.

That bouncy-bouncy movement helped too with getting my body into ready position.

Thanks a mil buddy.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Pimples on Gozo??? N-E-V-E-R!!!!!!!!!!

pssst: I got T64 ready on my blade. Gonna hulk smash to my heart content this evening.


She-HULK use T64 too...

I played with T64 on my other one ply hinoki ( Teen Avenger: 10mm One ply Hinoki ) today. It was a blast, I was smashin' a lot and the ball lands. T64 is of course more trampolinish than Baracuda and unlike Baracuda where you need to loop / brush to make it deadly, T64 is just smash and forget kind of weapon coz' the ball very unlikely to come back.

p/s later this week I will try to use this set-up and challenge some of the higher tier player and see how it goes. This evening play I had wonderful success against weaker and similar level player.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Look at how effective this is!

I looked at the YT video and I take back my earlier assertion that the Indian Player won by using LP. Nay! She won with her own skills. I watched the vid and I am impressed with her skill. SYS does know how to play against pips and it is pure skill vs skill and on this particular match, India prevail instead of China.

 

[NextLevel]

After my BH-focused club session last Tuesday which I described earlier, I figured out that I'm simply not judging the trajectory of the ball very well on the BH side. Both timing and height are off. As folks like @Der_Echte and I think @NextLevel have pointed out, you should be able to judge a ball's location and trajectory as soon as it's hit, but while I'm doing OK in that regard on the FH side, I'm terrible with that on the BH side.

As such, I'm switching up my training a bit. To start I had the robot serve me balls at 3 different heights and then I try to loop with spin and then try to drive with power. Due to the way the robot works, which bounces off an adjustable plate on top to change the ball's height, different heights also mean different speed as the ball bounces harder against the plate and thus loses more energy when the trajectory is lower.

First session on Thursday was terrible, I'm missing a great majority of the shots, and much of the time not even making contact with the ball altogether. Today it went much, much better. I slowly began to mentally process each shot better and better as it flew toward me, and timed my swings to the anticipated trajectory of the ball. The W968 being the strict teacher it is, let me know when I didn't time each shot exactly right. Misjudging the ball's height would cause the shot to go long or into the net, so I had to get that right as well. Then I added some randomness laterally, which was trivial to adjust to compared to adjusting for height and speed differences but was good to practice footwork so my feet don't get lazy while I focus on timing and height adjustments.

Next session I'll start adding some more speed differences. Once I get better with that I can do a bit less of those drills and start working on improving my opening loop consistencies as well.

On serve you can tell trajectory based on first bounce unless with an extremely advanced server, but in rallies, you use the ball arc to judge, but depending on axis of rotation and how it hits the table as well as extreme spin, some things can go wrong but not often.

Sometimes, the real culprit in missing the ball is approaching the ball too closed and not having adaptable technique. Timing is important but I try to focus first on having a racket angle opening enough to make good contact with the ball. Most of my contact starts on the side of the ball either the left or the right side then I trap over over trap upwards, more forward for topspin, more upwards for backspin. Also going for power with large swings is extremely risky given the relatively small strike zone of the backhand. Securing safe contact IMHO is the priority even at the expense of extreme shot quality,

 

[jk1980]

After my BH-focused club session last Tuesday which I described earlier, I figured out that I'm simply not judging the trajectory of the ball very well on the BH side. Both timing and height are off. As folks like @Der_Echte and I think @NextLevel have pointed out, you should be able to judge a ball's location and trajectory as soon as it's hit, but while I'm doing OK in that regard on the FH side, I'm terrible with that on the BH side.

As such, I'm switching up my training a bit. To start I had the robot serve me balls at 3 different heights and then I try to loop with spin and then try to drive with power. Due to the way the robot works, which bounces off an adjustable plate on top to change the ball's height, different heights also mean different speed as the ball bounces harder against the plate and thus loses more energy when the trajectory is lower.

First session on Thursday was terrible, I'm missing a great majority of the shots, and much of the time not even making contact with the ball altogether.

Hitting balls with your forehand is way easier because you hit them next to your body basically diagonally and shifted to one side, while with the backhand you hit them coming straight at you.

A ball flying straight at you only gives you parameter to guess its distance which is its size. That is very hard to estimate forme as well. Add to that that you might even obstruct the clear view onto the ball if you stand low and have your racket up in backhand stance while swinging.
Swinging with forehand you never obstruct the view onto the ball and do have not only the size of the ball to track its distance but also the path it takes laterally to the side of your body.

 

[NextLevel]

I looked at the YT video and I take back my earlier assertion that the Indian Player won by using LP. Nay! She won with her own skills. I watched the vid and I am impressed with her skill. SYS does know how to play against pips and it is pure skill vs skill and on this particular match, India prevail instead of China.

I agree (for the record, she uses Anti-spin backhand and short pips forehand), though I think the Indian player was "lucky" at critical junctures and was seeing the ball really well with her smashes and counters on that day, but that is what happens in life in any single game/match. If they play the match again, Sun Yingsha would avoid certain patterns better and would rely less on shot quality to win some points and things go very differently. Other than the very end of the last game, there were key points in the match where the Indian player just had things go her way that likely deflated Sun Yingsha and ended up having her just say the day was not for her. She is human after all.

 

[blahness]

Hitting balls with your forehand is way easier because you hit them next to your body basically diagonally and shifted to one side, while with the backhand you hit them coming straight at you.

A ball flying straight at you only gives you parameter to guess its distance which is its size. That is very hard to estimate forme as well. Add to that that you might even obstruct the clear view onto the ball if you stand low and have your racket up in backhand stance while swinging.
Swinging with forehand you never obstruct the view onto the ball and do have not only the size of the ball to track its distance but also the path it takes laterally to the side of your body.

For me its actually the opposite - BH is the more versatile shot because it can deal with attacking both short and long balls, and because the preparation movement is smaller you can take balls earlier.

I had to work very, very hard (and am still doing that) to make my FH movement as fast and efficient as my BH movement.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

No doubt, the point is not necessarily to complain about illegal serves, the point is that he didn't realize they were illegal, so I am thinking, maybe the serves are not as bad as they look on camera. There were other points I wanted to make, but at this point, Gozo does realize he is who he is, just as I am who I am. After you have posted for a while, people get a good idea of what your MO is, what you like and don't like etc., when you listen and when you don't etc., whether you are willing to work on what you do not enjoy etc. So nothing we say will be nothing that Gozo hasn't heard before, the problem is that it will hardly make a difference until Gozo is frustrated enough and wants to improve enough to try something different, and whether he will be able to do the training to recondition the habits formed, that is another battle by itself. One of the beautiful things about table tennis is the size of the table and the weight of the ball, it makes skills like touch and control just as important as power and speed. That said, in the end, you do what you enjoy, that is the most important thing with hobbies.

Gozo luvs smash things.
Gozo no problem smash,
Gozo problem no read spin well and receive.

 

[NextLevel]

Gozo luvs smash things.
Gozo no problem smash,
Gozo problem no read spin well and receive.

My coach told me that I didn't know how to spin the ball. I said, "I do spin the ball". He asked my fellow students (grade and high school students), "Does NL spin the ball?" "Not really." "You drive the ball which is okay for some balls, but if you learn to spin, you can attack more balls with more power and less risk and still drive the high and easy balls."

Years later, after I develop a spin game, an old man (former Iranian national team player) told me, "You don't spin the ball." I said, "I do spin the ball." He said, "Everyone spins the ball, including hitters, but not everyone wins with heavy spin." I asked a clubmate, "Do I spin the ball?" The clubmate look at the old man and said, "You need your glasses, NL hits some of the heaviest spin in the club."

Moral of the stories: When you spin more, your spin reading, serve and receive all improve. Spinning the ball doesn't make you a spinner, it just makes you have more ways of attacking the ball. Even world class hitters spin.

But of course, do it your own way. It took lots of losing to realize my way didn't work. That was when I became a spinner.

 

[Der_Echte]

Next Level LIKES to put heavy topspin on the ball... it is the RIGHT kind of skill.