27th ITTF-Asian Table Tennis Championships 2024, Astana, 10/7-13

[zeio]

I don't think you are trying to hear the argument so at this point, I will bow out in peace. Originally I agreed with you but them I realized that the last two matches would always be the same. Again, the reason ABC is better is because the A player has a chance to set the tone. If the A player loses, it is no better than being XYZ in this specific match format. Not other match formats where A, B and C players three times each or formats like Olympics teams matches where one player gets to play twice before a other player does.

If you aren't posting something that superficially discusses that point for this specific match, we are just going round in circles.

Two more instances below where CHN was the XYZ team. The order of play would've affected the outcome, therefore, 2 of those 2-3 in this case could've gone the other way in the other case and it's not as simple as flipping the order around and calling it a day.

The last time CHN lost as the ABC team was back at WTTC 1991 where the Corbillon Cup System was used, in which a player could play 2 singles and 1 doubles.

PRK 3-1 CHN at Asian Games 2002
Kim Hyonhui 0-3 Zhang Yining
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-cjyYwjfj0
Kim Hyangmi 3-0 Wang Nan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luQfrES6PIk
Kim Yunmi 3-2 Li Nan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tw1g0_frd0
Kim Hyonhui 3-1 Wang Nan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8KqZqWkt7A

JPN 2-3 CHN at WTTC 2004 (there was a video on youtube and I linked it once but it has disappeared)
https://sports.sohu.com/2004/03/04/90/news219299047.shtml
UMEMURA Aya 2-3 Wang Nan
Fukuhara 0-3 Zhang Yining
FUJINUMA Mai 3-2 Li Ju
UMEMURA Aya 3-2 Zhang Yining
Fukuhara 0-3 Wang Nan

 

[igorponger]

Just behold it.

 

[zeio]

Harimoto played X here
View attachment 32435

And the XYZ team lost.

Hayata played as X at WTTC 2024 and said she couldn't transition to the 4th match against SYS in time after upsetting CM, admitting being mentally prepared for 2 matches will be necessary in the future.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

And the XYZ team lost.

if a player is on form and has a good day, no matter abc or xyc, the player will win.
wang nan playing x loosing, if on a bad day, will loose too, on a good day, she would win.
so, wang nan didn't win both playing x before??
Is the problem positioning or form on the day?

or is it if abc or xyz, you are saying it will affect the players ability to play the first match and second match (M2 and M4)?

Harimoto won 2 as X
and Japan loss not because of abc or xyz, but rather, it was 1 player vs 3 players.
that day, even if Harimoto plays A, he would win 2, and Japan would still loose the same points. However, the A and B player of China failed to stop Harimoto who had a better position (A and B and resting 2 games in between).

Until there is proof that abc or xyz will affect the players before the match, I don't buy that the win (of 1st match, or match 2) is the result of player being X and not A and vice versa.

Hayata played as X at WTTC 2024 and said she couldn't transition to the 4th match against SYS in time after upsetting CM, admitting being mentally prepared for 2 matches will be necessary in the future.

so based on this, if Hayata played A, that will help her being mentally prepared to win 2 matches? and/or at A, she will beat SYS?

 

[zeio]

Count the number of times CHN was the XYZ teams below.

Another one for WT:
At WTTC 2008, CHN was the XYZ team, where it dropped the 1st match to SGP.

For MT:
At WTTC 2024, CHN was the XYZ team, where it dropped the 1st and 3rd matches to KOR.
At WTTC 2006, CHN was the XYZ team, where it dropped the 1st match to GER.
At WTTC 2004, CHN was the ABC team, where it dropped the 1st match to AUT.
At WTTC 2000, CHN was the XYZ team, where it dropped 1st, 2nd and 5th matches. It was the last time CHN lost in MT.
At WTTC 1997, CHN was the XYZ team, where it dropped the 2nd match to FRA.
At WTTC 1995, SWE was the XYZ team, where it dropped the 2nd and 4th matches to SWE.
At WTTC 1993, CHN was the ABC team and the underdog, where it dropped the 1st, 3rd and 4th matches to SWE.

At World Team Cup 2011 (which had doubles), CHN was the XYZ team and dropped 2 matches to RUS.

 

[zeio]

10/9
T1
WT SF
CHN vs HKG
https://live.douyin.com/174499135622
JPN vs IND
https://live.douyin.com/161285822203[/urll] [URL]https://live.douyin.com/318990075748
https://live.douyin.com/739456994585
https://live.douyin.com/914606371070
https://yeslivetv.com/channels/elta-tv-2/

 

[driversbeat]

Count the number of times CHN was the XYZ teams below.

Another one for WT:
At WTTC 2008, CHN was the XYZ team, where it dropped the 1st match to SGP.

For MT:
At WTTC 2024, CHN was the XYZ team, where it dropped the 1st and 3rd matches to KOR.
At WTTC 2006, CHN was the XYZ team, where it dropped the 1st match to GER.
At WTTC 2004, CHN was the ABC team, where it dropped the 1st match to AUT.
At WTTC 2000, CHN was the XYZ team, where it dropped 1st, 2nd and 5th matches. It was the last time CHN lost in MT.
At WTTC 1997, CHN was the XYZ team, where it dropped the 2nd match to FRA.
At WTTC 1995, SWE was the XYZ team, where it dropped the 2nd and 4th matches to SWE.
At WTTC 1993, CHN was the ABC team and the underdog, where it dropped the 1st, 3rd and 4th matches to SWE.

At World Team Cup 2011 (which had doubles), CHN was the XYZ team and dropped 2 matches to RUS.

Also 2006 for WT when Tie Yana beat Guo Yue in the first tie.

IMO, the toss doesn't give you as significant an advantage in the WTTC format compared to Olympic format where ABC's ace plays XYZ's third player in the fourth match. As Tony pointed out, matches 3, 4, and 5 will be the same regardless of toss outcome, so the ABC advantage is nullified the moment ABC's ace loses their first match, putting their team at a disadvantage as it's now XYZ's ace who comes out to face their ABC's second player while their team is 0-1 down.

Thailand 0-3 NK
NK vs SK for 5th place!

 

[dingyibvs]

I wonder if the seamless ball really does take some significant adjustment and evens the odds for the competing teams. Other than the heavily spin based LJK, all the Chinese players both men and women played worse than expected in their first match (I guess not enough is known about Shi and Su to know how that should've gone), including CXT today against the HK #3.

 

[driversbeat]

Japan vs India
Miwa 1
Odo 2
Ito 3

Ayhika 1
Batra 2
Sutirtha 3

No Hirano, No Sreeja Akula

 

[Janard]

Japan vs India
Miwa 1
Odo 2
Ito 3

Ayhika 1
Batra 2
Sutirtha 3

No Hirano, No Sreeja Akula

Ito's short pips would be good against the long pips of India no? Since there will be less spin for the latter to play around. I guess JNT really wants to train up Miwa.

 

[driversbeat]

Ito's short pips would be good against the long pips of India no? Since there will be less spin for the latter to play around. I guess JNT really wants to train up Miwa.

Sutirtha plays with short pips on the forehand. Ito should have no trouble with her nor the rest of the Indian team tbh. I'm surprised they didn't play her in the first two singles. Hirano struggled against that Iranian player with short pips at WTTC2024 and also yesterday against Tan Zhao Yun so her absence isn't too surprising.

I'm more shocked that they played Odo for 2nd singles, seems like they want to groom her, too. Between Miwa and Odo, you have two relatively inexperienced double inverted players that Ayhika and Batra love to feed off of.

26th ITTF-Asian Table Tennis Championships 2023 - Results

results.ittf.com

Interestingly, India played the exact same lineup last year and lost 0-3. Japan played Ito 1, Hayata 2, Hirano 3.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Also 2006 for WT when Tie Yana beat Guo Yue in the first tie.

IMO, the toss doesn't give you as significant an advantage in the WTTC format compared to Olympic format where ABC's ace plays XYZ's third player in the fourth match. As Tony pointed out, matches 3, 4, and 5 will be the same regardless of toss outcome, so the ABC advantage is nullified the moment ABC's ace loses their first match, putting their team at a disadvantage as it's now XYZ's ace who comes out to face their ABC's second player while their team is 0-1 down.

Thailand 0-3 NK
NK vs SK for 5th place!

it does have some outcome for the players, but it is so so so so minute compared to the form of the player on that day.
To think that a pro is tired when he plays at X and only have a match rest, or 3 match rest at Y is in a disadvantage is really laughable. I have yet to hear from a pro to tell me it is difficult.

In fact the Austrian 1st division... player plays single at 2, then doubles at 4 and singles at 5. I asked him, how you coping. he told me, its only once a week, so it is easy. If it was 2 or 3 times he week, he might struggle.
So that is 4 matches, and he had to play 3 of them. with only match 3 rest.
pros are pros.

back to X
wang nan played 2 at x and loss 2
harimoto played 2 at x and won 2

zeio can quote all he wants, the better player during the match won.
The only explanation is that teams event holds some mystical power and the pressure comes with it, is different to singles. Any one who has played in teams event would know what I am saying.

This isn't the olympic teams where the 2nd single at 5th makes a big difference.
this format, both best players will play either 1 and 4, or 2 and 4. and the better play will win. or unless the team tries to catch out positions with different placing.

 

[NextLevel]

Sutirtha plays with short pips on the forehand. Ito should have no trouble with her nor the rest of the Indian team tbh. I'm surprised they didn't play her in the first two singles. Hirano struggled against that Iranian player with short pips at WTTC2024 and also yesterday against Tan Zhao Yun so her absence isn't too surprising.

I'm more shocked that they played Odo for 2nd singles, seems like they want to groom her, too. Between Miwa and Odo, you have two relatively inexperienced double inverted players that Ayhika and Batra love to feed off of.

26th ITTF-Asian Table Tennis Championships 2023 - Results

results.ittf.com

Interestingly, India played the exact same lineup last year and lost 0-3. Japan played Ito 1, Hayata 2, Hirano 3.

Odo is probably their best allround player against pips (even over Ito having watched her all these months). Ito, while she should win, can struggle with Surtitha's power and hitting. Surtitha is one of the physically strongest players in women's TT with her ball quality.

 

[zeio]

Hayata is as loud as ever.

 

[NextLevel]

Ayhika might have cost herself the match by not knowing the rules on double hits.

 

[driversbeat]

Ayhika might have cost herself the match by not knowing the rules on double hits.

Umpire incompetency at its finest. Always sounding out when they should be silent and not exercising their authority when they should.

 

[driversbeat]

Miwa wastes 2 matchpoints. 2-2 now.

Just how spinny are Ayhika's blocks for Miwa to be chopping them back when they are high and long? I don't think she looped twice in a row on a single occasion. Also, what spin comes back when Ayhika hits upwards against an incoming loop? She even executed a reverse pendulum serve with the short pips, regular grip, to force a Miwa loop that she could feed off at 11-11. Makes me want to try a sheet of anti on my backhand too.

Miwa 3-2 Ayhika. Crisis averted.

 

[zeio]

Ayhika might have cost herself the match by not knowing the rules on double hits.

Ever since Ishikawa grabbing the ball that was still in play (hit the net assembly and landed) at Asian Olympic Qualifications for Rio 2016, nothing surprises me.

 

[NextLevel]

Odo is a nervous wreck and all Manika's tricks are working lol.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Manika seems under control. Odo making many misses