Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[blahness]

Figured out to get really super heavy sidetopspin on my hook serve. Previously i only got very heavy sideunder and moderate sidetopspin.

Encountered a strange player who chops with incredible spin variation and lost 3 very closely contested games which all went to deuce. He was also using no toss extreme spin serves which gave me a hard time, and attacks loose balls with his FH well. Also my FH loop and footwork is admittedly quite rusty so I missed more than what I should. Unfortunately I couldnt really read when he does nospin chops vs heavy chops. The difference is really quite subtle indeed. Does anyone who is a chopper can shine some light on how the spin variation is achieved and is there an easy way to tell them apart?

 

[Wrighty67]

Figured out to get really super heavy sidetopspin on my hook serve. Previously i only got very heavy sideunder and moderate sidetopspin.

Encountered a strange player who chops with incredible spin variation and lost 3 very closely contested games which all went to deuce. He was also using no toss extreme spin serves which gave me a hard time, and attacks loose balls with his FH well. Also my FH loop and footwork is admittedly quite rusty so I missed more than what I should. Unfortunately I couldnt really read when he does nospin chops vs heavy chops. The difference is really quite subtle indeed. Does anyone who is a chopper can shine some light on how the spin variation is achieved and is there an easy way to tell them apart?

Do share the hook serve insights please -I also struggle with this one.

 

[Novarac23]

Had a great coaching session today then a guy from the club showed up who is unranked but he is insanely good. Had a session with him, he explained how I am brushing the ball too much gave me a few tips and my fh has never been better tbh. It came down to my starting position, paddle being too closed, and my finish position. It was pretty amazing How much that made a difference. I also tried playing short pips on fh, inspired by matthias falck, that was so fun (my fh was so fast and direct it was nuts) but I like my fh loop a bit too much haha I also decided ST hande is the way to go for my hands, feels a lot more comfortable. Sanwei fextra 7 is coming in next weekt with st handle we’ll see how that is

 

[blahness]

Do share the hook serve insights please -I also struggle with this one.

Imo it is a bit of a dark art to it, but instead of snapping your wrist up like a reverse pendulum serve, if your wrist goes down before your palm does it will produce quite strong topspin although the overall movement is going down. This has way better deception.

 

[Wrighty67]

Imo it is a bit of a dark art to it, but instead of snapping your wrist up like a reverse pendulum serve, if your wrist goes down before your palm does it will produce quite strong topspin although the overall movement is going down. This has way better deception.

Interesting - will try it. I was watching Benjamin Farahi, who has a great topspin hook, and his serve seems to focus on a gradual upwards arm motion from start to finish of serve where he rolls over the back of the ball rather than using the wrist?

 

[blahness]

Interesting - will try it. I was watching Benjamin Farahi, who has a great topspin hook, and his serve seems to focus on a gradual upwards arm motion from start to finish of serve where he rolls over the back of the ball rather than using the wrist?

There are quite a lot of ways to serve hook. Benjamin's movement appears to always finish upwards, first is the underspin generating movement portion, then finishing with the topspin generation portion (for serves there is always 1 real and 1 fake movement, and you toggle them to change the spin to ensure that movement looks the same).

Edit: Benjamin actually has a hook serve where he starts with the hook serve chop movement but ends with the reverse pendulum upwards swing to the side (which probably can generate a huge ton of topspin). Very interesting indeed.

Mine actually has the topspin generation portion first and then underspin later. So my movement goes down overall regardless of whether im serving top or under. But I can also serve the other type (ie the high finish type), they have slightly different characteristics.

So although it is a hook serve the concepts are a bit different.

 

[Wrighty67]

There are quite a lot of ways to serve hook. Benjamin's movement appears to always finish upwards, first is the underspin generating movement portion, then finishing with the topspin generation portion (for serves there is always 1 real and 1 fake movement, and you toggle them to change the spin to ensure that movement looks the same).

Edit: Benjamin actually has a hook serve where he starts with the hook serve chop movement but ends with the reverse pendulum upwards swing to the side (which probably can generate a huge ton of topspin). Very interesting indeed.

Mine actually has the topspin generation portion first and then underspin later. So my movement goes down overall regardless of whether im serving top or under. But I can also serve the other type (ie the high finish type), they have slightly different characteristics.

So although it is a hook serve the concepts are a bit different.

Makes sense - his appears to be a bigger, whole arm movement rather than the Craig Bryant, wrist driven kicker.

 

[blahness]

Makes sense - his appears to be a bigger, whole arm movement rather than the Craig Bryant, wrist driven kicker.

His is also wrist and finger based, there is no good hook serve where it is only arm (except as a variation).

 

[blahness]

I accidentally learnt a new technique to fake loop reverse pendulum or hook serves that drift long even with ambiguous spin. So for fake loop it is better to go against the sidespin for easier control (ie a fade), in addition to lifting it (if it has backspin). Super useful as a variation to the opening loop, as it actually has the opposite sidespin due to the fade (vs real opening loops where you would just hook it a bit). Usually the best is to fake it to their elbow, they think it is curving to their FH but in actual fact it is gonna curve towards their BH instead - they get surprised and you probably get a weak ball to finish. And then when they get used to it just do the real hook loop to their wide FH and get a direct point.

Need to find a way to do something similar for BH receive against FH pendulum serves lol. I already have the stable BH sideswipe receive which I can make it look a bit more like a loop.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

In one of those very rare moment, Gozo bested a long-pips chopper / blocker. ( Gozo 4 - Long Pipster 1 )

And no, I did not take have video evidence, it was those once in a blue moon serendipitous moment.

 

[dingyibvs]

So, anyone else a bit of a perfectionist here? Now that my BH is at a solid place, I'm starting to focus a bit more on my FH. Watching my videos, it still felt a bit off (using Ma Long as the standard). So now I'm on a quest to get my form to look more like ML's. I just can't leave good enough alone!

Anyhow, I've been recording short segments of my form, then watch it, modify my form, record again, etc. I think I've managed to get it a lot better, and it actually does feel like it makes a big difference. My past few months' work has been focused on my basic stuff, left/right weight transfer, activation sequence, footwork, recovery, transitions, etc. Now I getting down to the nitty gritty stuff. What I've noticed is that in addition to all that stuff, Ma Long's form (actually not that different from FZD's, another reason I felt the improvement is probably universally helpful) requires the following changes to my current form.

1) Stick my butt out more. @blahness actually mentioned this in some recent posts, I didn't really know why it helps though. It's a bit hard to describe, but it basically allows me to use my core muscles, specifically my obliques more. Normally when you contract your right oblique, for example, your body leans to the right (and thus your right shoulder gets pulled down), but in a stance where your butt sticks out and your body leans forward, this pulls your right shoulder to the back right, which is where you want to backswing your racket.

2) And this is related to the first point. Sticking out the butt more also allows me to utilize my left oblique more during the forward swing. Your obliques don't just rotate your body left right, it rotates it, well, obliquely, so also up and down. This allows full and natural usage of my left obliques to pull my right shoulder and thus my racket up and to my left. In addition, it engages my left back muscles a heck lot more as it performs the synergistic actions as my left obliques, pulling my left shoulder back and down while my right shoulder goes up and left.

3) And this is also related to the above two points. Sticking out the butt more allows my right glutes to be more stretched during the back swing, and allowing it to contracts and aide in the forward swing weight transfer.

So, now I'm on a journey to fine tune my FH so I can look more like ML or FZD's form! The shots I can hit with this form is already pretty crazy, so I'm pretty excited about it.

 

[blahness]

So, anyone else a bit of a perfectionist here? Now that my BH is at a solid place, I'm starting to focus a bit more on my FH. Watching my videos, it still felt a bit off (using Ma Long as the standard). So now I'm on a quest to get my form to look more like ML's. I just can't leave good enough alone!

Anyhow, I've been recording short segments of my form, then watch it, modify my form, record again, etc. I think I've managed to get it a lot better, and it actually does feel like it makes a big difference. My past few months' work has been focused on my basic stuff, left/right weight transfer, activation sequence, footwork, recovery, transitions, etc. Now I getting down to the nitty gritty stuff. What I've noticed is that in addition to all that stuff, Ma Long's form (actually not that different from FZD's, another reason I felt the improvement is probably universally helpful) requires the following changes to my current form.

1) Stick my butt out more. @blahness actually mentioned this in some recent posts, I didn't really know why it helps though. It's a bit hard to describe, but it basically allows me to use my core muscles, specifically my obliques more. Normally when you contract your right oblique, for example, your body leans to the right (and thus your right shoulder gets pulled down), but in a stance where your butt sticks out and your body leans forward, this pulls your right shoulder to the back right, which is where you want to backswing your racket.

2) And this is related to the first point. Sticking out the butt more also allows me to utilize my left oblique more during the forward swing. Your obliques don't just rotate your body left right, it rotates it, well, obliquely, so also up and down. This allows full and natural usage of my left obliques to pull my right shoulder and thus my racket up and to my left. In addition, it engages my left back muscles a heck lot more as it performs the synergistic actions as my left obliques, pulling my left shoulder back and down while my right shoulder goes up and left.

3) And this is also related to the above two points. Sticking out the butt more allows my right glutes to be more stretched during the back swing, and allowing it to contracts and aide in the forward swing weight transfer.

So, now I'm on a journey to fine tune my FH so I can look more like ML or FZD's form! The shots I can hit with this form is already pretty crazy, so I'm pretty excited about it.

Yep it is basically the benefits of having forward lean. Also your eye level is closer to the ball which makes you more precise. And you not only engage the larger glute muscles but also you can manage the trajectory very well by adjusting the level of forward lean - you can either choose to lift the ball up (reduction in forward lean) or press it down (by increasing forward lean). Very useful mechanism.

It is also quite important in BH too.

I envy you can play and practise so much lol...

 

[dingyibvs]

Yep it is basically the benefits of having forward lean. Also your eye level is closer to the ball which makes you more precise. And you not only engage the larger glute muscles but also you can manage the trajectory very well by adjusting the level of forward lean - you can either choose to lift the ball up (reduction in forward lean) or press it down (by increasing forward lean). Very useful mechanism.

It is also quite important in BH too.

I envy you can play and practise so much lol...

Well, it's good exercise, I just do some TT training at home when I've got some free time. I was working on this just now, and it's gonna take some time lol. Watching my videos my body start straightening up after a few shots. I've slowed down the feed rate to give me a little more time to think in between shots, but I think I'm gonna need to slow it down further. Part of the issue is that I tend to squat pretty heavily, so now that I'm adding bend to my back I need to squat less. That should be a good thing in the long run as squatting too deep makes it more difficult to move quickly.

That's the reason I gave up on it a few months ago, too many things to pay attention to every shot. I decided to focus on more basic stuff like activation sequence and weight transfer.

Btw, I also noticed in the ML/FZD training video that their forward lean doesn't really change during or between shots. This suggests that rotation only occurs across 2 axes but not all 3.

 

[blahness]

Well, it's good exercise, I just do some TT training at home when I've got some free time. I was working on this just now, and it's gonna take some time lol. Watching my videos my body start straightening up after a few shots. I've slowed down the feed rate to give me a little more time to think in between shots, but I think I'm gonna need to slow it down further. Part of the issue is that I tend to squat pretty heavily, so now that I'm adding bend to my back I need to squat less. That should be a good thing in the long run as squatting too deep makes it more difficult to move quickly.

That's the reason I gave up on it a few months ago, too many things to pay attention to every shot. I decided to focus on more basic stuff like activation sequence and weight transfer.

Btw, I also noticed in the ML/FZD training video that their forward lean doesn't really change during or between shots. This suggests that rotation only occurs across 2 axes but not all 3.

Vs normal topspin you wouldnt want to change the forward lean too much, but esp against backspin it can be very useful.

The most useful part is actually during balls which you need to do some last sec adjustments, you can see them do it all the time during matches.

 

[dingyibvs]

Vs normal topspin you wouldnt want to change the forward lean too much, but esp against backspin it can be very useful.

The most useful part is actually during balls which you need to do some last sec adjustments, you can see them do it all the time during matches.

It's a bit hard to work in the intricacies at this moment. At the beginning stages of this I find myself straightening my back in my forward swing. I did a frame by frame analysis of my motion and I see an incongruency between my body and my arm, where my body lifts while my arm gets lifted and compensates by pressing down and closing the angle. I'm a firm believer that the body motion should guide the arm/racket in the same direction of travel. So I then worked on a more right to left motion with my body while maintaining the forward lean. After that it looked much better. I could get better, more consistent contact on the ball.

There's actually quite a bit of motion that needs adjustments for what appears to be a rather simple change. I think I'm gonna be shadow practicing quite a bit on my trip to China later this week to try to work this motion into my muscle memory.

 

[NextLevel]

I found the quote in the backdrop interesting:

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Woo Hoo!!! Yes! Yes! Yes!

Yesterday Gozo had a one on one session with an Olympian, a bona-fide National Level Player ( that is, not a OB player ). Who was it? It is none other than Mister @Heming Hu . These are the take home messages, at least for Gozo:

• Break-away from the habit of just pushing long serves. Be brave and attack or top-spin all long serves if you want to break-away from OB / club level player. You must create the mindset of attacking all long serves. No pussy-footing on this. If not, be happy and remain a club OB player forever!
• Work on open ups on both wings. Open up, open up always open up at the first instance.
• If you do these three things well with high percentage, you'll beat like 95% of the rest of the OB / club players locally. What three?
• Open up on your BH with little to no unforced error. Practice, practice and more practice.
• Open up on your FH with little to no unforced error. Practice, practice and more practice.
• Drive all the incoming blocked ball. Drive and drive and drive until you get the point.
• 95% of OB / club level does not know how to counter-loop, so they will just block and you must drive those blocked ball well to win. At least at my level, I do not have to worry about counter-looping.

That's all folks. Simple three things Heming told me to do better to elevate to the next level.

NB: He also told me to engage my core more when doing the BH open-ups. ( Bonus tip )
NBB: Heming did comment that my service is not too bad and can let me steal some easy points, at least when faced with majority of Club / Hobby level players.

 

[Wrighty67]

Woo Hoo!!! Yes! Yes! Yes!

Yesterday Gozo had a one on one session with an Olympian, a bona-fide National Level Player ( that is, not a OB player ). Who was it? It is none other than Mister @Heming Hu . These are the take home messages, at least for Gozo:

• Break-away from the habit of just pushing long serves. Be brave and attack or top-spin all long serves if you want to break-away from OB / club level player. You must create the mindset of attacking all long serves. No pussy-footing on this. If not, be happy and remain a club OB player forever!
• Work on open ups on both wings. Open up, open up always open up at the first instance.
• If you do these three things well with high percentage, you'll beat like 95% of the rest of the OB / club players locally. What three?
• Open up on your BH with little to no unforced error. Practice, practice and more practice.
• Open up on your FH with little to no unforced error. Practice, practice and more practice.
• Drive all the incoming blocked ball. Drive and drive and drive until you get the point.
• 95% of OB / club level does not know how to counter-loop, so they will just block and you must drive those blocked ball well to win. At least at my level, I do not have to worry about counter-looping.

That's all folks. Simple three things Heming told me to do better to elevate to the next level.

NB: He also told me to engage my core more when doing the BH open-ups. ( Bonus tip )
NBB: Heming did comment that my service is not too bad and can let me steal some easy points, at least when faced with majority of Club / Hobby level players.

Very good advice I’d say - my coach says exactly the same!

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Very good advice I’d say - my coach says exactly the same!

• When I told some of the more veteran players in my club about this, they too say the same thing. It seems this advise is pretty generic, but hey! I have to recognize I am at a pretty OB level player, so, simple things like this will most likely bring my game to the next level.
• Heming also mention that most OB / club level player, even if they have decent FH or BH top-spin / open-up skill but when it comes to actual match play, they dare not use it but retreat to their comfort pushing zone instead. He said, this mindset must change if one wants to move to the next level.
• I'll say this is so true for I have seen it with my own eyes, some of my Tier 1 player when they go and play in Open Tourney, they suddenly become timid little white mouse. Their ferocious FH top-spin disappear and is magically replaced with timid safe pushes.

NB: OB is a slang word for Hobby, made famous by none other than Aruna Quadri himself ( Nigerian accent ).

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

He came to Malaysia to see you ?? or you flew to Australia ?